Chinese Traditional "IC Formulae"

[peter]

Hello all, especially Chris, Pagan and Yly2pg1,

I observe sometimes your operations with 0 and 1, but recently I saw that you try to find some meaning of them. And I remembered that traditionally Chinese marked those "templates" in the opposite way: "yin" (0 in your writings) means "changing" and "yang" (1) - unchanging. Yes, several years I thought just in your way: 0 for non-moving, 1 for moving. But recently I found "Xuan Kong Da Gua" chart of hexagrams (on "www.lisfengshui.com", just now it's down somewhy, but I have the picture on my hard disk), and basing on numbers for rows given I certainly saw that rule. EG for all pure hexagrams the star 1 was given, for 1st generation (rows are the same as in Jing Fang chart) it was 8, 2nd generation - 4 etc. It can be simply explained - take Fu Xi circle of trigrams and put it on yin Luo Shu square:

6 1 8
7 5 3
2 9 4

So Chien (Qian) is 1 - all lines are "non-consonant" (1-4, 2-5 and 3-6); Sun (Xun) is 8 - 1st and 4th lines are consonant (of different poles, yin-yang or yang-yin), Kun is 9 - all lines are consonant (3rd generation in "8 palaces of Jing Fang") etc.

To receive "Feng" (55) from "Yu" (16), you have to apply "Song" template (6) to "Yu", not "Ming Yi" (36).

I believe that if you really want to find some sense in exploring these "templates", this information will be useful to you.

 

[pagan]

Hi Peter,
Is there an online page that explains this in more detail?
P.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Peter,

Thats interesting. What is being represented is:

You indicate 06 (something) 16 = 55. The differences is in the opposite nature of the lines of 06 and 36. "AND" applies here, consider:

010111
101100 AND
000100 (16)

06 AND 55 = 16

010111
000100 AND
000100 (16)

06 AND 16 = 55

The symbol '0' REPRESENTS yin.
The symbol '1' REPRESENTS yang.
I can, if I wish, use '0' to represent yang and '1' to represent yin. Dont confuse the representations with what they represent; (map vs territory).

The benefit of 0/1 representations is in the ability to apply XOR/AND/NOT etc operators.

The XOR operator, reflecting properties of our brains at work, acts to DIFFERENTIATE and so is PARTS oriented (creates a SET of parts). As such, hexA XOR hexB represented the hexA characteristics expressed WITHIN hexB, and that expression is represented by hexC (where hexC is the closest analogy/metaphor that captures the expression).

The AND operator appears to reflect SEQUENCING and can string parts together or describe the passage of hexA across a context of hexB - cause-effect dynamics etc. (and so 16 through 06 gives, leads to 55)

These are properties/methods of recursion, not the IC. Since the IC is derived from recursion so it will inherit these properties/methods.

Ancient texts will give rich metaphors for what is being delt with where modern terms can make it a lot simpler to understand/use and flesh-out more.

MY perspective is on recursion where 1 = differentiating, 0 = integrating. Apply recursion three times and you get qualities that map to trigrams.

111 - heaven
110 - lake
101 - fire
100 - thunder
011 - wind
010 - water
001 - mountain
000 - earth

..and hexagrams are made up from there. The consistancy in use, the clear differentation of what the symbols represent allows for manipulations that are consistant in their expression.

As for change, we are not dealing with change - we are dealing with STRUCTURE. In the traditional IC line representations change is --0-- or - x - not 1 or 0.

We can zoom-in on these to form line PAIRS to reflect change, thus yin over yang is a change from yang to yin. Yang over yin is a change from yin to yang.

Thus a trigram can represent a compression of hexagram into three lines e.g. 100001 becomes

- x -
-- --
--0--

As does a hexagram represent the compression of a dodecagram (12 lines) into six, possibly changing, lines.

We still have to review the operators of:
IOR
IMP
NOR
CON

and then comes stringing together operators (as done in switching theory etc)

These patterns are 'meaningless', pure forms, universals, until you find a context and the context for us is derived by understanding how the brain works.

Thus we can use XOR to derive the 'genetic code' of a hexagram, where all of the characteristics of the others are encoded in each and XOR brings out that expression.

Chris.

 

[peter]

Pagan,

here you can find some clues: http://www.lisfengshui.com/__fs-theory/da_gua_origin.htm , I haven't found explanation in details, but analyzing charts on this page you can see their logic (which I tried to describe in my first message). There are some other pages concerning Xuan Kong Da Gua on that site, they explain using He Tu, Luo Shu and circles of trigrams.

----------------
Chris,

I don't use operators or dodecagrams. Yes, I used them a little in past, but now I'm interested in other things. So you can use anything from your list, I only pointed out the traditional view and approach. I myself can invent many interpretations and transformations of hexagrams, but it will lead me to nowhere if I'm not connected with the tradition. So I prefer to study the tradition and verify my own thoughts with it.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Peter,

you are not making sense, or your replay is some sort of smokescreen.

In your orignal post you ASSERTED, *very clearly*, that there was an ERROR in using 36, one should use 06:

"To receive "Feng" (55) from "Yu" (16), you have to apply "Song" template (6) to "Yu", not "Ming Yi" (36)."

...That being based on your knowledge of 'traditional' systems.

I pointed out that there was no error at all, one pattern covers "XOR", the one you spoke of is in fact "AND". All I see here is the traditional perspective letting you down. IOW understanding modern perspectives, simple exercises on logic, would have given you insight into the differences and in a far quicker, easier way. I suggest you go through the line positions material carefully .... "this information will be useful to you."

Interestingly, nowhere in your reply do you acknowledge your error, nore acknowledge my clarification of what was going on - instead you come up with this dismissive rubbish you have as you try to 'prefer to study the tradition'!

10th century BC thinking will NOT bring the IC to 'life' in the 21st century AD. You will need to move up to seriously considering/understanding how the IC is a product of our brain and how, by understanding that, we can flesh it out more than it has been.

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Peter, to make a point, your traditional perspective is:

"But recently I found "Xuan Kong Da Gua" chart of hexagrams (on "www.lisfengshui.com", just now it's down somewhy, but I have the picture on my hard disk), and basing on numbers for rows given I certainly saw that rule. EG for all pure hexagrams the star 1 was given, for 1st generation (rows are the same as in Jing Fang chart) it was 8, 2nd generation - 4 etc. It can be simply explained - take Fu Xi circle of trigrams and put it on yin Luo Shu square:

6 1 8
7 5 3
2 9 4

So Chien (Qian) is 1 - all lines are "non-consonant" (1-4, 2-5 and 3-6); Sun (Xun) is 8 - 1st and 4th lines are consonant (of different poles, yin-yang or yang-yin), Kun is 9 - all lines are consonant (3rd generation in "8 palaces of Jing Fang") etc."


The modern, univeral, format is simple and requires no knowledge of particular chinese names, emperors, history, mythology etc etc

All we have is:

X AND Y = Z
X XOR Y = Z

Where X, Y, and Z are hexagrams representing 'something/someone' etc The AND operation will give you a description, by analogy, of some passage or sequence or cause-effect dynamic of X passing thorough/over Y, all expressed by Z.

The XOR operation will give you a description, by analogy, of some PART nature of a WHOLE where the WHOLE as Y contains the X as "X-ness" of Y and the expression is Z.

XOR means DIFFERENTIATING and so pushing things away to make something noticable.

AND mean INTEGRATING and so a pulling things together.

From the brain material we know that the realm of XOR is very clear, but also STATIC - there is no 'time' element other than a sense of the 'eternal'.

OTHO, the AND can be more approximate but is DYNAMIC with time playing a strong, dominating, part.

If we map time across the two then AND is about past/future, and XOR is about NOW ... in information processing, what we cannot understand by maximising bandwidth, and so know NOW, we recruit TIME to help us out - as we do, for example, in taking pictures of galaxies in space where time exposure is required to get the image.

Any material from the ancient realms will be too local, too 'long winded', when compared to modern methods. Now, if you are studying the traditional for the sake of studying it - fine; but if you are seeking to understand the core nature of the IC, modern methods offer more - IMHO ;-)

Chris.