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Clarification by senior members of requested to two common questions..

hexagon

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Clarification required by a senior member:

1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I admire the advice I have received by two senior members and want to learn more.
 

dobro p

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hexagon said:
Clarification required by a senior member:

1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I'll tell three things I think and one thing I know.

I think that the position of an unchanging hexagram is this: it's the big picture compared to the individual lines, which are aspects of the big picture. So if you draw an unchanging hexagram, you're getting a biggie compared to if you draw changing lines.

I think the order of the hexagrams is not important, although I think the *pairs* of hexagrams are really important cuz you can understand a hexagram better when you compare it to its twin.

I know that different people have different opinions about these questions, and so there's a lot of disagreement about them.

I think that what's important is that *you* decide what the rules are before you consult the Yi; the Yi will know your decision and adjust accordingly.
 

hexagon

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Give yourself time to understand the reading. The answer will come.

I agree that you bring your own rules into the reading. I also found out that giving yourself time, ie: re-reading the reading at a later time, say a day later, can do wonders to trigger our intuition so something clicks and we just "get it'" The initial reading can be overwhelming, but give it time and we can suddenly see something that was there all along.

Laurie
 
L

lightofreason

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hexagon said:
1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

There are three forms of interpretation of self-referenced dichotomies - here being yin/yang - symmetric, asymmetric and anti-symmetric:

(a) as a representative of magnitude, scalar expression, degree of 'anger' etc etc As such there are no concepts of 'changing lines' etc but what you can do is acquire a hexagram's spectrum through an equivalent sense of 'changing lines' through the use of the XOR operator (see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html )
What THIS does is show how all hexagrams form a language with all categories linked together. This allows us to get a hexagram to describe itself though analogy to the othe hexagrams.

(b) as a representative of sequence - date/time stamp etc. In this format, due to the rigid nature of time you can have only one changing line to represent some current position in the sequence (none at all would indicate a time not started perhaps ?) Plum Blossom interpretations work off this. - overall (b) reflects the movement from issues of scalars to those of vectors etc.

(c) as a representative of hierarchy - we combine magnitude and sequence and so allows for different levels in the hierarchy to reflect 'change'. We can interpret each line as a level and if changing then that level has 'issues' - OR we can inerpret all changes as transforming the whole structure into something else - either literally or figuratively. Most traditional perspectives favour (c). With tensors etc so we have a system that when 'touched' will re-configure itself to make the best response to the touch.

hexagon said:
2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

- do you mean LINE? IN plum blossom there is only one line (b). In magnitudes (a) there are none (we can increase scales and move to dodecagrams (4096) and COMPRESS them into hexagrams where they would appear as 'changing lines' but in fact are compressed expressions and so no change really)

In hierarchic format (c) each line can be considered independent of the rest and so reflecting an issue in THAT 'department'. E.g. if the top line is changing then it indicates an issue with the 'sage' nature of the hexagram - and if line 3 is also changing then there is an issue with the 'local lord' nature of the hexagram. OR you can consider both lines as being dependent and so derive a hexagram of 'change' where neither line matters in that the result is what matters.

All hierarchies come in two forms - nested and non-nested. In the latter the levels are almost independent of each other, in the former there are strong dependences across all levels so it is context that decides the 'best' method of interpretation (although all three will work since the context will reflect all three ;-))

Chris.
 

heylise

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I got very often really good answers, with unchanging hexagrams, when I asked about something, or a situation, "what IS this". Not what I needed to do, or what would happen, just wanting to know what this actually was.

It gave me more insight in many other answers too. As if they are usually rather a description of a situation or time than an advice or whatever else. I did like that, as if Yi just tells you the facts, and leaves the rest to your own intelligence. It is what I would expect from an expert, when I ask about something. Telling me the facts in a clear way.

So that is what I see most of all in an unchanging hexagram. An image of this moment, of this situation, or whatever I asked about.

When I ask a question about the best course of action, I seldom get the same hexagram more than once for a question, but when I ask for a description, I often do. Even when there are months in between.

As for your other question: I only think there is anything chronological when your asked for that. I think a hexagram is a whole, every part existing at the same moment. Every line being an aspect of that moment.

LiSe
 

dobro p

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heylise said:
I got very often really good answers, with unchanging hexagrams, when I asked about something, or a situation, "what IS this". Not what I needed to do, or what would happen, just wanting to know what this actually was.

It gave me more insight in many other answers too. As if they are usually rather a description of a situation or time than an advice or whatever else. I did like that, as if Yi just tells you the facts, and leaves the rest to your own intelligence. It is what I would expect from an expert, when I ask about something. Telling me the facts in a clear way.

So that is what I see most of all in an unchanging hexagram. An image of this moment, of this situation, or whatever I asked about.

Lise, I don't know if what you say has any particular connection with unchanging hexagrams, but recently I've started to ask questions like you describe here. Not 'what do I need to do?' or 'what do I need to know about...?' but 'what's happening here?' 'what's the truth here?' 'what IS it'?

A good question is worth the speed of light.
 

hexagon

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Interesting insight

Yes, I agree. The clarity of the question can lead to clarity in the answer. Asking simply WHAT IS provides a snapshot of what IS and allows us to move forward with clarity of purpose.

Laurie
 

bradford

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hexagon said:
Clarification required by a senior member:
1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?
2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I'll concur with the others on the first one. For an illustration, if I remember any of my Fijian language, they have base words which they slow down into nouns with the prefix Na or speed up into verbs with the prefix Sa. So the prefix would distinguish between The Rain and Raining. "Unchanging" (never really any such thing) would be slowed down and more thing or state like than it would be the description of a change.

I don't think I understand the second question. Do you mean the final result after multiple lines change? If so, I would make that more important than the changing lines, which could contradict each other.
 
L

lightofreason

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hexagon said:
Yes, I agree. The clarity of the question can lead to clarity in the answer. Asking simply WHAT IS provides a snapshot of what IS and allows us to move forward with clarity of purpose.

Laurie

the snapshot perspective means a focus on a magnitude, thing-ness, and reflects the type (a) usage given in my post above. In this format the XOR material gives insight into the hexagram as a whole, covering all properties and methods by analogy to all of the other hexagrams.

If the particular question is hard to ask then we can use the situation to tell us in that our perceptions of a situation will seed our brain and it will go through a series of general questions that can give us a representation of that situation without being too specific. Thus the focus is 'what is going on?' and the questions map out basic brain dynamics in dealing with novelty:

(a) is this a yin or yang context (e.g. values or facts)

(b) WITHIN (a) is this a yin or yang time context (e.g. what could have been/isnot/could be OR what was/is/will be)

(c) WITHIN (a+b) is this me being yin or yang (e.g. Am i responding to or instigating this situation)

The TRIGRAM that this forms is the base for eight hexagrams and so consideration of them will elicit 'resonance' where one describes the situation and we can use XOR to extract details if need be.

The Emotional I Ching material asks the questions of our emotions, as in how we FEEL.

Complications about a bias due to personal influences can be delt with by getting someone else to answer the questions on THEIR perspective of YOUR involvements etc.

Thus ANY situation can be mapped to a hexagram without use of random/miraculous methods - just use of simple Q and A.

Chris.
 

hexagon

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Let me clarify my question...

bradford said:
I'll concur with the others on the first one. For an illustration, if I remember any of my Fijian language, they have base words which they slow down into nouns with the prefix Na or speed up into verbs with the prefix Sa. So the prefix would distinguish between The Rain and Raining. "Unchanging" (never really any such thing) would be slowed down and more thing or state like than it would be the description of a change.

I don't think I understand the second question. Do you mean the final result after multiple lines change? If so, I would make that more important than the changing lines, which could contradict each other.

I appreciate your wanting clarification as another member tried to answer this question. I am asking about the changing lines of the first hexagram. Is there a chronological order with which to read them? If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.
 
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lightofreason

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hexagon said:
I appreciate your wanting clarification as another member tried to answer this question. I am asking about the changing lines of the first hexagram. Is there a chronological order with which to read them? If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.

if you treat all changing lines as levels in a hierarchy then the lines relate to the level, not to each other. Thus line 1 relates to the general, 'worker' level and its problems, line 5 to the court position and its problems. These problems are eliciting change across the whole system but on their own are not responsible for it (OTOH if line 1 only was changing then it would be responsible for the change)

If you recognise the hierarchy as a non-nested form then each level is indepedent of the others and there are no 'contradictions' since all levels run in parallel not serial; it is the quality of the levels that give the hierarchy.

On the other hand, given a social hierarchy that IS dependent, the higher up you go the more influence on those below such that changing line 4 can dramatically influence all below it but not necessarily that above it (at best that immediately above it, no more)

Consider Dilts' hierarchy applied to the I Ching:

Spirituality - top line
Identity
Beliefs
Capabilities
Behaviour
Environment - bottom line

IF I change your identity (line 5) then all below is influenced, OTOH if I change your behaviour only interactions with the enviroment is influenced.

Finally - consider the approach where:

(1) each line comment is for that line.
(2)The lines are idependent and so cannot be taken as a pair of changing lines - THAT relationship demands its own change comment such that there are 56 comments missing per hexagram!

In the hierarchy, due to the different types you are looking for the 'best fit' - in some cases the hierarchy is non-nested and so lines are independent levels, in others (nested) there is dependencies of lines etc etc so given the toolkit of possible interpretations you let context decide.

Chris.
 
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Sparhawk

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Sigh... :D

There goes a perfectly good newbie... :rofl:

Chris, don't scare them. Hold the juice until they have accumulated at least 50 messages. By then, they'll deserve whatever comes their way... LOL!

L
 

hexagon

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To dig a little deeper...

lightofreason said:
if you treat all changing lines as levels in a hierarchy then the lines relate to the level, not to each other. Thus line 1 relates to the general, 'worker' level and its problems, line 5 to the court position and its problems. These problems are eliciting change across the whole system but on their own are not responsible for it (OTOH if line 1 only was changing then it would be responsible for the change)

If you recognise the hierarchy as a non-nested form then each level is indepedent of the others and there are no 'contradictions' since all levels run in parallel not serial; it is the quality of the levels that give the hierarchy.

On the other hand, given a social hierarchy that IS dependent, the higher up you go the more influence on those below such that changing line 4 can dramatically influence all below it but not necessarily that above it (at best that immediately above it, no more)

Consider Dilts' hierarchy applied to the I Ching:

Spirituality - top line
Identity
Beliefs
Capabilities
Behaviour
Environment - bottom line

IF I change your identity (line 5) then all below is influenced, OTOH if I change your behaviour only interactions with the enviroment is influenced.

Finally - consider the approach where:

(1) each line comment is for that line.
(2)The lines are idependent and so cannot be taken as a pair of changing lines - THAT relationship demands its own change comment such that there are 56 comments missing per hexagram!

In the hierarchy, due to the different types you are looking for the 'best fit' - in some cases the hierarchy is non-nested and so lines are independent levels, in others (nested) there is dependencies of lines etc etc so given the toolkit of possible interpretations you let context decide.

Chris.
I appreciate your efforts of designating the character to each line - it helps me understand how the position of each line is interrelated, but independent. Wow - a big piece of the puzzle is placed, even though some of what you say is over my head. The foundation has to be built before a basic understanding is recognized. I have work to do, but thanks for putting one of the bricks in place.
To dig a little deeper, I don't understand why a changing line with an ominous tone ie: 'there will be evil" may result in a resulting positive hexagram.
 

hexagon

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sparhawk said:
Sigh... :D

There goes a perfectly good newbie... :rofl:

Chris, don't scare them. Hold the juice until they have accumulated at least 50 messages. By then, they'll deserve whatever comes their way... LOL!

L
I understand your concern - and to be honest, Chris' first message was waaayyy over my head (page 1). However, it made me realize how in depth the IC can go, or not, if one prefers. I remain intrigued.
 

Sparhawk

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hexagon said:
I understand your concern - and to be honest, Chris' first message was waaayyy over my head (page 1). However, it made me realize how in depth the IC can go, or not, if one prefers. I remain intrigued.

Oh my... :D

Well, if you take Chris's point of view and material, the Yi is not deep but bottomless; at the same time that it is a well oiled machine and cosmic computer with a logic circuit board. He may have a point there, who knows.

Chris, you didn't scare this one. Go deeper... :mischief:

L
 

hexagon

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Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.
 

Sparhawk

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hexagon said:
Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.

Hexagon, my dear, too late!! You are now under his spell... :rofl:

Luis
 

hexagon

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Time to strap on my seat belt and enjoy the ride, I guess. Digest what I can - learn by osmosis through these and other readings. This is a joy - I've had questions pent up in my head for years which have gone unanswered. Yes, I am a newbie, but have used the IC off and on for years on a superficial level. What attracts me to the IC as opposed to any other form of divination is it's philosophical bent with the tao. Balance.
 
L

lightofreason

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hexagon said:
...To dig a little deeper, I don't understand why a changing line with an ominous tone ie: 'there will be evil" may result in a resulting positive hexagram.

All hexagrams are 'neuter' in general, they work as universals and so lack colour. LOCAL context adds the colour such that a hexagram can be considered positive or negative. Thus the Receptive (02) is both total, utter, darkness is a negative sense as it is the darkness of the nurturing womb in a positive sense. The Creative (01) is positive in the leadership/light focus as it is negative in the competitiveness and intensity of that light where it can burn/blind.

The line comments stem from a later period in the IC development where the commentor (Duke of Chou) added more personal perspectives and so colourings. We can change the focus a bit to bring out generic interpretations that allow the user to fill in the emotional dots but I have not done that yet ;-) - too much else to do at the moment!

Chris.
 

bradford

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hexagon said:
If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.

Yes, the theory is that the higher the line the more towards the future, so you read them like you build them, from the bottom up.
I personally transform the lines one at a time from the bottom up and thus work my way through a series of line texts in different heaxagrams, a method called Transitional Hexagrams. It goes to the same resultant hexagram. It really clears things up for me and wipes out lots of contradictions. But I don't think I've talked anybody else here into using that method.
 

bradford

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hexagon said:
Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.

Hexagon-
Do Not let this stuff confuse you.
Chris is nothing but a blowhard with his own private language
and some quasi-scientific jargon. It ain't all that meaningful.
He does not Want to be understood, because then he couldn't
baffle and bewilder you and thus impress you in this way.
This is a personality disorder, not wisdom.
 
L

lightofreason

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bradford said:
Hexagon-
Do Not let this stuff confuse you.
Chris is nothing but a blowhard with his own private language
and some quasi-scientific jargon. It ain't all that meaningful.
He does not Want to be understood, because then he couldn't
baffle and bewilder you and thus impress you in this way.
This is a personality disorder, not wisdom.

Wow - I have never written anything like this about you or ever flamed you without you flaming first - and here you wreck this thread by doing it again.

I feel sorry for you bradford - this sort of desparation prose reflects someone who lacks depth in understanding and is obviously struggling with anything on the IC that is not written in limited 10th century BC 'speak'.

The IC+ material, stemming from IDM, is A MAJOR contribution to analysis of the I Ching. The FACT that it marginalises your work by making it 'just another IC interpretation' is probably upsetting but there is nothing I can do about that - change is inevitable and if you cannot deal with that - if you refuse to 'get' the lingo etc there is little I can do about it but it does NOT warrent you making the above remarks - you just look even more ignorant than you already are re the derivation of meaning in general.

The IDM material is VERY meaningful in identifying what is BEHIND all of the exptressions, and so what is behind the IC meanings, what qualities, what categories, seed those meanings to allow them to be understood outside of ancient China.

If I am conceited it is justified since the work IS that good - for you to be conceited, dismissive and all of the other 'names' is unfortunate since you have nothing to be conceited about; your work is no contribution at all to the overall IC, at best of interest to your 10th century BC mates - you can all gather in the pub and rave on about the angled line in top left of the X character in the image text of hexagram Y! LOL! PATHETIC STUFF.

The IC+ material with XOR etc IS wisdom but it is a wisdom you will never experience due to YOUR personality disorder of fear of change and fear of having your contributions marginalised and so your identity marginalised. Poor baby.

GROW UP. LEARN 21st century IC 'speak'. Dont fight the inevitable, you will be assimilated or you will die of old age wondering 'what happened?'.. 'where did I go wrong?'

May I suggest that you follow Martin and Bruce_g and block my posts and that way I wont impinge on you 'little' world and you wont feel the need to write such prose as you have above. Because you cannot cope with the IC+ material does not mean others cannot as well - after you are not exactly Mensa material from what I have seen in the past so it will take you some effort to 'get it' even if you tried.

SO - as I have said to Martin, I will say to you - PUT UP OR SHUT UP. I can link all that I present to work in neurosciences, psychology etc etc so to put up you need to contradict what I have said with references to empirically derived research, not some personal 'value' you hold.

Chris.
 
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bradford

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I thought you might disagree with me on those points
and prepared the following silence:
 

hexagon

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Thanks to everyone...

It's unfortunate that our discussion has come to this as I was learning much from everyone, in spite of the fact that some of it was beyond me.I I guess if there's anything we can learn from this experience is to remember that the IC is simply a vehicle, or guidance to follow the tao. My thanks go out to everyone who helped in their own way to teach me.
 

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I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

41.4: He decreases his affliction, dimininshes his faults. He acts quickly. There will be joy. No blame.

41.6: If one is increased without descreasing others, there is no blame. Perseverence brings good fortune. It is beneficial to have somewhere to go. One obtains servants, but no household.

About these lines, Balkin says: If you break the cycle of negative thoughts and strive to eliminate your faults, you will gain a fresh lease on life. To be increased without decreasing others means acting for the public good. (Yes, I know that some may say that this is random--but it's apt, isn't it?)

Actually, I've been following this thread just because it excluded us non-senior citizens at Clarity and it got my nose out of joint. I've been waiting for someone to stand up for those of us who are newbies to the site, but whose relationship to the Book of Changes is counted in decades. All of the contributors to the site should be respected. The point shouldn't be whether I or anyone else is excluded or who is right in their interpretation--Chris or Bradford or Lise, etc.--but that when we fall into struggles for power the way becomes lost.

Surely anger is not in the flow of the tao, is it?

Best,

Miakoda
 

hexagon

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Hello Miakoda:
In respnse to my comment on the tao in my last posting - we are all human no matter how much we may bring to the table. Anger is not an attribute of the tao; rather, it is a yellow light that says we have strayed. A simple awaremess of this and one is back on track. I wanted to ask a senior member partly because there is so much I have yet to learn and felt asking for solid direction would educate me appropriately. It was never my intention to exclude anyone, which I did, so apologies to anyone who felt left out. I value input from everyone.

So there it is - the platform is open to everyone!
 

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"I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

Hex 41.4 the superior members must decrease their faults and then all will be well again.

Hex 41.6 there are some here who can be of benefit to everybody, but they must make sure that they don't bring about decrease to the new members by their attitude, the senior members are there for the public good.

Hex 54 these so called senior members should acccept a lowly position and not try to be high and mighty, otherwise misfortune occurs for the whole household. Nobody can get along with the big, brash members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.
 
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Trojina

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miakoda said:
I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

41.4: He decreases his affliction, dimininshes his faults. He acts quickly. There will be joy. No blame.

41.6: If one is increased without descreasing others, there is no blame. Perseverence brings good fortune. It is beneficial to have somewhere to go. One obtains servants, but no household.

About these lines, Balkin says: If you break the cycle of negative thoughts and strive to eliminate your faults, you will gain a fresh lease on life. To be increased without decreasing others means acting for the public good. (Yes, I know that some may say that this is random--but it's apt, isn't it?)

Actually, I've been following this thread just because it excluded us non-senior citizens at Clarity and it got my nose out of joint. I've been waiting for someone to stand up for those of us who are newbies to the site, but whose relationship to the Book of Changes is counted in decades. All of the contributors to the site should be respected. The point shouldn't be whether I or anyone else is excluded or who is right in their interpretation--Chris or Bradford or Lise, etc.--but that when we fall into struggles for power the way becomes lost.

Surely anger is not in the flow of the tao, is it?

Best,

Miakoda

Why should you be disturbed by 'rancour' here. What passes between people on these threads has a long history. Seems only human to me that from time to time people show some exasperation etc etc with each other.

A senior member is only someone who has posted over a certain amount of times, it doesn't really indicate any kind of seniority so I am a bit lost that you seem to think non senior members are excluded. I don't think any of us gives a toss who is senior or not.

As for anger not being part of the tao, well is it outside the tao then ? Does following tao look like a certain way of behaving which always involves being carefully polite and avoiding any authentic expression of feeling ?

There is no 'struggle for power' as you put it, its just people being themselves. Why do you want soemone to stand up for you as far as i can see no one has attacked you

Its all very well when you are new and detached to stand back and nod sagely and say what a pity it is that someone expressed anger. Thats easy, and in my view pretty sanctimonious.

New people pass through here all the time, sorry I don't really see why older members need to tiptoe around them for fear of offending their sensibilities ?

I think Wfox is a senior member, perhaps she needs to take her own advice.
 
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Trojina

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willowfox said:
"I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

Hex 41.4 the superior members must decrease their faults and then all will be well again.

Hex 41.6 there are some here who can be of benefit to everybody, but they must make sure that they don't bring about decrease to the new members by their attitude, the senior members are there for the public good.

Hex 54 these so called senior members should acccept a lowly position and not try to be high and mighty, otherwise misfortune occurs for the whole household. Nobody can get along with the big, brash members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.


What is this nonsense ? Wfox you are indeed a senior member, I hope you will accept your self imposed lowly position. :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.

But I am!! I am!! Ask my dog, she'll tell you. :)

L (on his way to seniority, God willing...)
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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