Coin Tossing

[wealth]

I've noticed that many books describe a 'points' system for choosing the line when discussing their system, I however use the system from Huang's translation.

When throwing coins what option do you use?

Why do you think there's a difference?

Kenny

 

[Sparhawk]

HI Kenny, I don't think I follow your thoughts correctly... What is your question? How to better calculate the lines?

 

[wealth]

the head side...is given the value three. The reverse is given the value two. ... A six equals Old Yin; seven means Young Yang; eight is Young Yin; nine, Old Yang.

.

Two faces and one back equals Lesser Yang.
Two backs and one face equals Lesser Yin.
Three backs equals Greater Yang.
Three faces equals Greater Yin.

 

[Sparhawk]

Others may have a better way to cast the coins and record lines but for me is easier to think in numbers and not in heads/backs. Once you assign a number to the sides of a coin, and cling to that decision like a life-vest, it is a matter of adding numbers. So, I'm more in line with what Riseman shares. Whatever is easier for you; it doesn't really make any difference.

 

[fkegan]

Numbers and Yi lines

In natural number systems, the unit is not a number, so the first available number is 2. It is even which is considered feminine and thus yin. The next number is 3 it is odd which is considered masculine and thus yang.

An oracle line is based upon a set of three heads/tales, odd/even (yarrow stalks) components. If you look at the numbers the possible totals of 2 and 3 in a group of three are 6 (all yin), 7 (two yin and a yang), 8 (two yang and a yin), and 9 ( all yang). Since Yi oracles are gestalt symbolism, what is unique upon a background of a pair determines the meaning of the oracle line. I have seen English based casting rules that give the value of the lines to majority vote, so that the pair wins over the singleton but then the Yang and Yin associations to odd and even don't work.

There is an option whether to consider the head (obverse) of the coin (with a distinguished Presidential portrait in U.S. coins following the example of Alexander and Roman Emperors) to be Yang or the reverse where the value of the coin is written out as Yang. Either way the oracle results will work for the person choosing which side is Yang. It is even possible for 2 people to use the same tosses of the same coins for their own answers to a shared question using reversed Yang/Yin values (one taking heads as Yang, the other heads as Yang). The oracle will work for each in their own terms (they can even contrast the casting order, one casting the first line first, the other the 6th line first).

Remarkably, the Yi oracles work however you decide to cast them.

Luis, I hope your dragon returns to flying soon, his reading the want ads looking for rentals in these tough economic conditions is a sad sign of the times.

Frank

 

[dobro p]

In natural number systems, the unit is not a number, so the first available number is 2.

Really? That's fascinating. I find it difficult to believe that a numerical value wasn't ascribed to single things though. It makes a very great difference whether you're paid one piece of gold or two pieces for something.

A: Where's the cow I bought? I gave you a piece of gold.

B: No, you didn't.

A: Yes, I did.

B: Prove it. I mean, you certainly didn't give me two pieces of gold. And we don't have a number for one, so you're hooped. Bugger off.

A: Well, I've got zero pieces of gold so far.

B: Well, zero hasn't been invented yet. So follow my previous instruction.

 

[jesed]

So, dobro, you don't have any clue about what "natural number system" implies. right?

 

[dobro p]

Right. I guess not.

 

[martin]

There is maybe some confusion here because in math the set of "natural numbers" does include the number 1 (and also zero in some definitions).
I guess Frank means something else when he says "In natural number systems, the unit is not a number, so the first available number is 2": counting starts with 2, if you have only 1 object you don't need to count.

 

[martin]

Of course, you also don't need to count, really, if there are two objects or even 3 or 4. Where does counting (a different mental operation than seeing at a glance how many objects there are) start?

 

[Sparhawk]

Of course, you also don't need to count, really, if there are two objects or even 3 or 4. Where does counting (a different mental operation than seeing at a glance how many objects there are) start?

I haven't figured out what to do after one runs out of fingers...

 

[hilary]

Toes.

 

[fkegan]

units and numbers

Hi Guys,
The distinction of the Unit and number of units is a philosophical one.
Euclid is one source, number is defined in his Elements (Book VII, Def.1,2) as "a multitude composed of units", thus the unit is one thing and the the number of such units another.

There is a similar commentary in Wilhelm I believe on why 1 is considered not a suitable place to begin the first yang number. One is All, and thus 2 is the first available number. It is even, goes to Yin, 3 thus first odd number it is Yang.

The number line we know in our math is a different thing from geometrical number (geometry being about magnitudes, so the unit or dimension in modern dimensional analysis is vital) and from ancient philosophy were One is the Monad or Unity and thus not useful in sequential analysis or numbering.

The Natural numbers were traditionally defined as the set of Integers beginning with 1, since you can only count things once you have at least one thing to count. There is a book titled From One to Zero about the long history in mathematics to get from math starting with 1 to the notion of 0 which requires a place number system, so that zero in some one of the place numbers is important.

The traditional Chinese line--the one brings forth two and together they bring forth the 3 and that then the 10,000 things is philosophically accurate. It isn't about counting or number sets but how one explains the perception of reality in terms of specifics.

Luis, great to see your dragon flying again.

Frank

 

[dobro p]

I like the way his dragon toasts his own signature.

 

[Sparhawk]

Toes.

Indeed!!

I should clarify that, in Spanish, they are also called "dedos," the qualifier being "...de los pies" (feet's fingers)... My brain still has a foot, five toes, cinco dedos, on each language...

 

[Sparhawk]

I like the way his dragon toasts his own signature.

I couldn't find a Dobro's picture to put under it...

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, great to see your dragon flying again.

Frank

Hey, you summoned the creature... It's hard to keep track of it though.

 

[dobro p]

Indeed!!

I should clarify that, in Spanish, they are also called "dedos," the qualifier being "...de los pies" (feet's fingers)... My brain still has a foot, five toes, cinco dedos, on each language...

In either language, boys can count to twenty-one. Girls to twenty.

 

[fkegan]

counting body parts and numbers philosophy

It used to be believed only sophisticated cultures had numbers beyond 3, the word "heap" or the like being used for anything more. Then it was discovered, it was just words for higher numbers that were lacking.
Numbers are considered philosophy while counting was making a one-to-one correspondence with body parts--not just digits (Eng for dedos) but lots of parts, so that tribal folks with 120 pigs or dragons to keep track of would be aware if one went missing when they took inventory.

Numbers are all about contemplating sets and other philosophical abstractions. The triangular numbers, square numbers, rectangular numbers, even, odd, cool, and funny (why was 6 afraid of 7? Cuz 7,8,9 (seven ate nine).

Choosing oracle lines is a pretty wide open process, you choose what will be your interpretation of the coin toss and the Yi spirit complies. It responds when summoned and delivers in any framework set out as its field of operations.

Luis,
I am always grateful when a dragon responds when summoned.
BTW, could you inform me how one puts those embellishments upon one's posts, nicknames, location, stuff upon the profile, I assume the signature in your browser email system?.

Frank

 

[dobro p]

Uh-oh. I think we're gonna get more dragons soon...

When you're in the 'Talk' section of the site, click on 'Private Messages', just above the messages on the right, where it says Welcome, fkegan. In Private Messages, under Control Panel, there are a lot of options to play with.

 

[fkegan]

Solving the Chinese Box mystery

Thank you Dobro,
I knew there was a panel to click somewhere to solve the mystery. No, I won't be putting dragons anywhere--I am grateful when they appear, but I have felt their fiery breath too often to set one loose myself.

I will be playing with the options though, all 21 of them. My, oh, my a new set of toys.

Again, thank you for the secret password.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

In either language, boys can count to twenty-one. Girls to twenty.

Sorry, Dobro, they best us on that too: they can count to twenty-two... Oh, and they invented the zero...

 

[Sparhawk]

Numbers are all about contemplating sets and other philosophical abstractions. The triangular numbers, square numbers, rectangular numbers, even, odd, cool, and funny (why was 6 afraid of 7? Cuz 7,8,9 (seven ate nine).

Oh my, we are officially "geeks." Next thing you know, we'll be making Calculus jokes. The sad part is that I'll be starting blankly...

 

[fkegan]

Sorry Luis,
Didn't know you had such math phobia to have a problem with grade school number riddles. I discovered my two natural number oracle technique from visiting a friend who was able to cite oracles by number pairs. Our conversation at dinner disturbed one of the house mates who didn't know the Yi at all, so he started saying pairs of numbers, at random he thought.

Of course, the result was even more annoying to him as the two of us found his oracles very insightful and he still had no idea what he was now saying.

There are number relations involved in tossing coins to cast the Yi oracle, and discussing why yin and yang are associated with 2 and 3 and through them to 6,7,8,9 as the number value of the various types of lines. There is a purely I Ching answer to the original riddle-- 6 feared 7 since 6 is moving Yin and 7 is stable yang who could easily hassle her while she is changing and he is standing around watching the show.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Sorry Luis,
Didn't know you had such math phobia to have a problem with grade school number riddles. I discovered my two natural number oracle technique from visiting a friend who was able to cite oracles by number pairs. Our conversation at dinner disturbed one of the house mates who didn't know the Yi at all, so he started saying pairs of numbers, at random he thought.

No, no!! I was pulling your leg... No phobia at all, really. Math and numbers fascinate me. I have a very abstract and image oriented mind (I'm a passionate photographer too). Of course, I have my limits but I can learn advanced math with no problems at all if I put my mind to it.

 

[fkegan]

My leg pulls away easily--guess I am part pinata

Hi Luis,
I am glad it was all in jest. 7,8,9 is about as simple a joke (little kid stuff, as my teen daughter put it) as there is.
But then having taught science, I am well aware there are folks, brilliant in other areas who recoil from anything mathematical. I had teachers myself in grade school who couldn't do the math in the second half of the workbook for that year.

On to photographic images, I learned about Yin as gestalt background rather than just an separate but equal gender symbol hiking on Barr Trail by Pike's Peak (Stillpoint was there and after chanting the sun up, there being no roosters about, the routine was to walk a ways up the trail). Walking on a day of bright sun, though with clouds scuttling by, the mountain was fully lit by hazy sun when clouds were in front of the sun. It was brightly lit when the sun wasn't. But when a big cloud was partially passing the sun, so that its shadow scuttled along the ground, when the shadow fell over all the mountain, except for the summit-- The mountain was inky dark and the sunlit crest sparkled like a diamond. And then the cloud moved on a bit and it all disappeared into a sunny day with clouds.
I think of that image with hex 56, why my Flux Tome name is Just Passing and the fifth line is exactly that scenario.

Frank