Conversations with the I Ching

[Enqquery]

All my posts are long. The TL;DR is does anyone else just talk with the Yi rather than ask it questions?


Conversations with the I Ching

I am going through a hopeless period of my life. I had mentioned in another thread that one of the only people I have had to talk to is the Yi.

I have been looking through the forums and I have not seen any discussions about talking with the Yi. Having an actual conversation.

There are a lot of suggestions on how to phrase questions, to avoid binary or closed questions, and the occasional admonition about questions in the form of statements because those can be an effort to box the Yi into a specific type of answer.

This all makes sense as it can be tough to interpret what the Yi is trying to say (sometimes).

However, I will have ongoing conversations. Usually until I am told, in some fashion, that it’s time to talk about something else.

Here is an example of one such conversation:

Me: My life is over

Cast: (54.5 > 58)

54.5: The sovereign gave his daughter in marriage. The embroidered garments of the princess were not as gorgeous as those of the serving maid. The moon that is nearly full brings good fortune (58.5: Sincerity toward stripping is dangerous.)​

Yi: Your next wife will not be as attractive but will have more to offer. The cycle is not complete [or since the moon is only 54% waxing, in the next week there will be good fortune](what?) Also brother, you are too focused on your soon-to-be-ex-wife.

Me: I don’t get it. “Things will get better because you’ll be marrying a less attractive woman...”?

Cast: (1.1.2 > 33)

1: The image of the movement of heaven is full of power. Thus the superior man makes himself strong and untiring. 1.1: Hidden dragon. Do not act. 1.2: Dragon appearing in the field. It furthers one to see the great man.​

33: In what is small, perseverance furthers. (33.1: At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous. One must not wish to undertake anything. 33.2: Shackle it using yellow ox hide. Under no circumstances will it be capable of getting loose.)​

Yi: No princess, you are in the “superior” position, Your soon-to-be-ex is looking at the pretty waiter. Better times are coming but you need to work on yourself right now. You can’t do anything about the divorce, let your lawyer sort it out.

YI: Start by doing little things other than the daily needfuls. It’s overwhelming, I get it, you don’t want to do anything. So instead you have turned your tail and ran. You need to find something good and hold on to it with both hands.

Me: It keeps coming back to a future where I see no hope of the “good life” you tell me I will have. (The “good life” is referencing the other readings which are laid out in my other post)

Cast: (60.2 > 3)

60.2: Not going out of the gate and the courtyard brings misfortune. (3.2 Difficulties pile up. Horse and wagon part. He is not a robber; He wants to woo when the time comes. The maiden is chaste, she does not pledge herself. Ten years--then she pledges herself.)​

Yi: Look, how can you find it if you are afraid to go outside? Afraid to put yourself out there? Yes, you are swamped and everything is falling apart. You want someone to love desperately (wants to woo), but you are afraid to talk to women (not a rogue/robber). It’s tough for anyone to meet people right now, and you have too much on your plate (time is not right). What do you want me to say? I promise you will meet someone [with a chaste descriptor who is not ready to settle down and have a family] and after [a while? I hope, because I can’t handle 10 years] you will [settle down and have a family?].

Since chaste women were highly sought and valued in ancient China. I am thinking it means a woman that has many suitors, or that is perceived as having a high value of some kind.

The last part I am open to help with interpreting because there is context I don’t get, regarding “chaste”, “pledge”, and “10 years”, and I have not had a chance to clarify things with Yi yet. Often he gets all “just think about it...” when I get too much into context.

Anyway, I have had a number of conversations and they all seem to make sense. Does anyone else do this? If so, what was your experience?

 

[Liselle]

Yes, I agree series of readings are conversational, and it really helps to think of them that way, because for instance then you can expand your ideas about what Yi's telling you. (And you're right, this includes Yi getting exasperated and so forth, just like a human conversation partner. )

In this particular conversation, I don't think Yi meant you're going to marry a less attractive woman! I think Yi was trying to reassure you that no matter how bleak things seem now, your life is not over.

54 acknowledges you're in an unfamiliar situation that you'll have to adapt to, but line 5 says eventually you can find your place. 1.1.2 - line 1 also acknowledges that you feel submerged right now and as if nothing is any use. Line 2 says the dragon emerges from that. 33 isn't about giving up or losing, it's about a strategic retreat to keep yourself safe. I think 60.2 means that what you can see now - your view from inside the gate - isn't all there is, and it will help you to keep in mind the wide world outside (or something like that).

 

[Enqquery]

@Liselle I had never thought of 54 as being about feeling out of place. I viewed it from outside the Hexagram, as a story of people learning to value something they originally discarded, the lame and poor-sighted concubine. Who was eventually regarded as being grander than the princess.

Not from the point of view of the concubine for whom the entire ordeal must have been terrifying.

With 54.5 I always likened it to ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’. The princess was haughty, unable to see what she lacked from her position of privilege. An ugly person, not necessarily unattractive but an unattractive prospect.

I read it as having to do with vanity of some kind. Viewing the princess as a foil to the serving girl. An antagonist, a ruler, who’s avarice left her with an empty basket, and bloodless sacrifice in line 6 (a wedding of convenience).

Which was why I did not understand being told “my next wife would be less attractive but have more to offer” Like “you will be comfortable but unhappy...”

Evaluating the entirety of 54 in light of your interpretation would confirm Yi calling to my attention the fact that I could be the ‘princess’ In the hexagram. Not an observer, but a participant in the Story.

By saying if you are the Dragon or the ‘superior man’ referenced in Hexagram 1. Why couldn’t you also be the Princess in Hexagram 54? If I were the princess, then who would the ornamented serving girl be? I thought of the other guy who is objectively more attractive, but married and as such having less to offer.

I interpreted it as calling me ‘princess’ as that would be an answer in keeping with the tenor of the conversation with me, effectively, saying ‘are you hearing yourself?’ And Yi responding ‘No, princess, are you hearing me.’

33.1 Under most circumstances I totally agree. I would read this as a retreat for safety. This time I read it differently putting emphasis on different words.

This time I read it in a more commiserating tone. At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous. One (you) must not wish (want) to undertake anything.

As an example: It is dangerous. Retreat makes sense, you must not want to do anything. <pats your shoulder> But... 60.2 Not going out of the gate and the courtyard brings misfortune.

I agree that it is telling me there is more out there than I can see from the safety of my courtyard. I just thought given the fact that 1.2 indicated the Dragon appearing in the field, (which I viewed as being a safely cultivated area outside of the courtyard). That it was saying the time of retreat was over I needed to do more than just look. Even if it is only little steps into the field. Like spending more time with friends or something.

Although I would still love to know about the “Chaste” “Pledge” and “10” years. I am now more interested in how, and if, their position in a chain of dialogue can change their inflection. 33.1 is a great example.

As an aside, I have some more relationship specific castings I will post as updates in my forum post on that topic. Things still are not any better, I still don’t have hope, I have given up on that, mostly.

This was just the conversation example that made me want to start a topic. Because it made me view 54.5 differently (you gave me even more insight into 54 on the whole) and it made me read 33.1 far differently than I would have in isolation.

 

[marybluesky]

Enquerry;

Conversations with the I Ching aren't uncommon.

As for the casts:

Me: My life is over; Cast: (54.5 > 58)
I don't know if this talks about another woman; rather read it as finding satisfaction in something that outwardly seems less than ideal. The serving maid's garment is more beautiful than the princess'. Maybe a single life would be more joyful for you, despite what we're taught about happiness.

Things will get better because you’ll be marrying a less attractive woman...”? Cast: (1.1.2 > 33)
I'd say 33 indicates retreating from relationships here. Don't act (1.1), but find someone/something helpful in recreating yourself.

It keeps coming back to a future where I see no hope of the “good life” you tell me I will have. (The “good life” is referencing the other readings which are laid out in my other post) Cast: (60.2 > 3)
Depriving yourself from what the life has to offer is a big mistake.

 

[Enqquery]

@marybluesky On 60.2 >3 we would agree. It is necessary to leave the courtyard and it will be difficult to do so. That does not address the aside in 3.2 which, again discusses relationships.

Your discussion of 1.1.2>33 indicating retreating from relationship could make sense, if it were not for 1.2 which indicates action, albeit small actions and going to see the great man.


On 54.5 I do not see how that would work. 54 is entirely about relationships, and this one specifically discusses marriage. I have never heard of it being interpreted as encouraging someone to be single.
edit: that does not mean it is not worth considering.

In my case in particular, I know that being single is not something I would enjoy more than being in a relationship.

I would not find it more fulfilling. Certainly not a “good life”.

I would be interested in hearing more about why you believe this conversation indicates single.

There is nothing pointing to isolation. Everything seems to point towards interaction with the possible exception of 33 which is saying there is only success in small things.

So 33 in and of itself does not seem to indicate retreat from relationships but rather cautious (small) actions.

 

[Enqquery]

@marybluesky you said conversations with the I Ching were not that uncommon. We’re you speaking of conversations that largely consist of statements, or questions?

 

[marybluesky]

@marybluesky you said conversations with the I Ching were not that uncommon. We’re you speaking of conversations that largely consist of statements, or questions?

Both.
I do conversations with lots of statements ; like:

Me: I'm not happy with X,
cast;
me: but it doesn't satisfy me,
cast;
me: I've waited a lot. Why doesn't it change?
cast;

and go on.

 

[marybluesky]

On 54.5 I do not see how that would work. 54 is entirely about relationships, and this one specifically discusses marriage. I have never heard of it being interpreted as encouraging someone to be single.
edit: that does not mean it is not worth considering.

In my case in particular, I know that being single is not something I would enjoy more than being in a relationship.

I would not find it more fulfilling. Certainly not a “good life”.

I would be interested in hearing more about why you believe this conversation indicates single.

There is nothing pointing to isolation. Everything seems to point towards interaction with the possible exception of 33 which is saying there is only success in small things.

So 33 in and of itself does not seem to indicate retreat from relationships but rather cautious (small) actions.

It was my take of hexagrams and can be wrong.

I don't say your first cast can't show a new partner, but don't see it clearly either. The main point of this hexagram is being in a less than ideal situation when you can't do things your way; like a maiden going to be a concubine. Now 54.5 shows the maiden- someone in a conventionally lower rank- whose dress is however more beautiful than the princess. Your statement was:

My life is over.

You consider your life terminated after the separation. 54.5 says being single may be considred less ideal than being married, but you'll have the "more beautiful dress"- something good. Can't say for sure what the good thing is.

33 doesn't show isolation, rather remaining in place or going backward instead of jumping in a situation. It was the relating hexagram, so I read 1.1.2 in such a background.

 

[Enqquery]

You consider your life terminated after the separation. 54.5 says being single may be considred less ideal than being married, but you'll have the "more beautiful dress"- something good. Can't say for sure what the good thing is.

Well, I can say with certainty that for the time being single is going to be the state of affairs.

I asked “about being single as a persistent condition” and was told 17.2.4>60

Which says to me that I have a tendency of following someone else as a child (17.2) without examining their motivations (17.4) and that I should remain single until I learn how to set boundaries (60). Which was a problem in my last relationship to be sure.

Maybe that is the “more beautiful thing”. Something to consider.

33 doesn't show isolation, rather remaining in place or going backward instead of jumping in a situation. It was the relating hexagram, so I read 1.1.2 in such a background.

I was having trouble with your interpretation of 1.1.2 “emergence from the field” and reconciling 33 with 60.2 which clearly says “leaving the courtyard” or as you had put it “not cutting yourself off from what life has to offer”. It is not possible to leave the courtyard or emerge from the field while in retreat or while remaining in place, unless it is talking about the small counter movements of 33 which I had considered to be small steps forward in this context.

So I was looking at the Wilhelm translation and noticed he associates 33 with the months of July - August, which would mean that the time of retreat is reaching its end. Allowing for motion out of the courtyard and emergence into the field. Thereby not cutting myself off from what life has to offer. Which would allow for both interpretations to be correct because the time for that change is nearly upon us.

The “more beautiful thing”, whether found in solitude or not can not be found retreating from the world, only outside the courtyard.

@marybluesky Thank You!

If anyone else has interesting conversations with the Yi I’d love to hear them.