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Crisis of faith

bostonian

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Last night, lying in bed, beginning to doze off, I awoke suddenly with a serious crisis of faith re. the i Ching. What if the world is what it appears to be empirically -- a series of random events? I got out of bed in a bit of a troubled state and began asking the i Ching questions, hoping it would reassure me. "Give me a sign that there is really someone -- or something -- out there," I asked. Something beyond my conscious mind that knows more than my conscience mind is aware of. I got nothing to hand my hat on. Then I said. "OK if you're real, give me a reading that has anything to do with water." Nothing. Then I asked a specific question about an event, and it danced around the issue in a way that I could interpret it as a direct response or i could interrupt it as just noise.

This morning I continued my testing of the oracle. And while it occasionally did respond (Give me a reading having to do with finances, response 14 was one of the accurate responses), most of the time it seemed way off.

Any thoughts?
 

my_key

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Hi Bostonian
It sounds like this situation has really rocked you and you have gone into a troubled state that has brought about bit of a IC questioning frenzy. The answers given by the IC just don't seem to be making sense to you or you are really having to stretch yourself to make any sense of them at all.
And while it occasionally did respond .......... most of the time it seemed way off.
What is making you think that it is the IC that is way off?

The thing that immediately springs to mind for you is that it is that time of year again. Winter Solstice is a time of death and rebirth. Something is dying and is trying to be reborn...transformed, changed, different.

So what if the world is what it appears to be empirically?.....
Perhaps it is more a time to enjoy what you have got rather than worry yourself silly about what you have not got, or think that you have lost.

Happy New Year

Be Well
Mike
 

Trojina

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Last night, lying in bed, beginning to doze off, I awoke suddenly with a serious crisis of faith re. the i Ching. What if the world is what it appears to be empirically -- a series of random events? I got out of bed in a bit of a troubled state and began asking the i Ching questions, hoping it would reassure me. "Give me a sign that there is really someone -- or something -- out there," I asked. Something beyond my conscious mind that knows more than my conscience mind is aware of. I got nothing to hand my hat on. Then I said. "OK if you're real, give me a reading that has anything to do with water." Nothing. Then I asked a specific question about an event, and it danced around the issue in a way that I could interpret it as a direct response or i could interrupt it as just noise.

This morning I continued my testing of the oracle. And while it occasionally did respond (Give me a reading having to do with finances, response 14 was one of the accurate responses), most of the time it seemed way off.

Any thoughts?
I like you Bostonian, you ask good questions, but I find it hard to relate to this one because if this thought comes to me i don't feel much resistance to it. IOW I don't mind. If the answers from the I Ching have actually been utterly random and nothing to do with my situation whatsoever...its okay by me really.

The whole 'give me a sign' thing... well then you are asking for something to be narrowed down enough to fit your criteria and it could be rather disapointing and even more mundane than the purely empirical reality you fear....but isn't empirical reality very much a fiction too ? A fiction of a world made understandable to us, by us, not any kind of 'objective ' reality...like time, what do we know about time ? We experience it in a linear form in our human consciousness and measure it but that could pretty much be our current working fiction

Anyhow like Mykey I don't think theres cause to worry over it...you can allow yourself to think the Yi is just a load of random nonsense and still use it...it doesn't mind i don't think :D

I think if you have such thoughts as you did then don't resist them, alllow them some room, let them have their say. I think its only if you feel resistance to them they would cause you to lose sleep. You could of course ask Yi how to best handle such disturbing thoughts
 
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jesed

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Hi Bostonian

Another perspective

In most of cases (Job, Jesus, Confucius, Lao, Buda, Krishna, etc) that kind of questions are seen as rudeness and lack of respect. In most of cases, the answer is the same: I won't give you any sign.

The Yijing said:
If he importunes, I give him no information

Best

P.S. I know this aproach is debatable; not sure that I agree with this aproach. I just say this aproach exist.
 

peter2610

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Hello Bostonian,
I think it's unlikely that the I Ching would have addressed your questions directly, given the context in which they were made. More likely you might have received 'deferred' or 'protocol' answers that were addressing the present state of your emotions/thinking. However, just as a point of interest, could you let us know the actual readings you received to your 'Give me a sign ...' and 'Water' questions?
Best regards. Peter
 
M

meng

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What if...
My two favorite words. :bows:

Your experience sounds like a healthy disorientation to me. Tough questions to reckon with, and perhaps the oldest as well. Things may look different when they settle again.
 
M

meng

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Hey Meng
Wasn't one of your favourite words "SO"?
What's going on here??????
..........Another crisis in faith:eek::D
Mike
Bingo, Mike! In fact I started my message off with "So"? but didn't want to sound indifferent. lol

mantra: nothing is happening

So and What If make good companions. :D
 

my_key

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...especially if they all appear together.:cool:
So what if the world is what it appears to be empirically?.....
:brickwall::bag::duh::footinmouth::p:D

mantra: nothing is happening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwoKnr3ie54

Salty river
Falls asleep in the bay
Always gets there
Never early, never late

Nothing's happening
Nothing's happening by the sea

White waves tumble down
And gently roll back into blue
On wooden seats outside the bar
The couples make their rendezvous

Nothing's happening
Nothing's happening by the sea

The trouble has been found
There's too far ups and too many downs
I found a level that feels just right
There's no mistaking where I'm going tonight

Nothing's happening
Nothing's happening by the sea
 

edge

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I always think doubt and uncertainty is central to human experience, after all belief is just that, not knowledge or certainty of what exists...Exploring our relationship with uncertainty helps us to learn about ourselves and the way we relate to each other and the world, and it can be really hard at times. I also really find that working with the I Ching has helped me deal with uncertainty, not through 'knowing' what will happen, but rather understanding that change is a constant and inescapable part of life, and one cycle of change merely leads to another. So when I have a crisis of faith (either in the I Ching or any other part of my belief system), it scares the hell out of me but I've started seeing it as part of my learning. Asking 'so what?' does help! I wonder if we aren't supposed to have certainty, knowledge or 'proof' as that would make things a little easy and we'd never learn anything!
I read this article in Time quite a while ago about Mother Teresa's struggle with doubt.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html
I find it really interesting that we make an assumption that belief in anything necessitates the absence of doubt, when in fact the struggle with doubt should be (or just is) central to any belief.
So, Bostonian, I think your struggle with doubt can only increase your understanding, although you may want to lay off the 'testing' for a while as the proof my not appear on demand! :)
E
 

fkegan

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Last night, lying in bed, beginning to doze off, I awoke suddenly with a serious crisis of faith re. the i Ching. What if the world is what it appears to be empirically -- a series of random events? I got out of bed in a bit of a troubled state and began asking the i Ching questions, hoping it would reassure me. "Give me a sign that there is really someone -- or something -- out there," I asked....

Any thoughts?
Hi Bostonian,

You reacted to your Crisis of Faith in I Ching, by casting many oracles seeking objective proof. First and foremost you are neglecting YOUR Crisis which is not about the Yi but about you.

You note you were about to go to sleep when a state of agitation gripped you and getting very upset you started acting out your agitation and were surprised the results of your activities did very little to calm you again.

Try to imagine what response, from the Yi or from anyone or anything else, or even your own conscious mind would have been useful and appropriate to someone in that state. If you can find such a suitable solution in response, then you could question why you didn't get it when you cast the Oracle. Otherwise, you might do better to question what was happening with you and why you took it as you did.

Did you ask the Oracle about yourself and why you were upset? Do you generally find more benefit from your Yi Oracles when you are calm or when you are agitated?

The Buddhists note 4 doctrines of causality, one is that all events are independent and without connection or causation. This would be similar to your insight that things seem 'random'; it is a viable philosophical view but does nothing to solve any personal crisis as the other three perspectives and more are also viable.

Good Luck with your Crisis.

Frank
 
M

maremaria

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Last night, lying in bed, beginning to doze off, I awoke suddenly with a serious crisis of faith re. the i Ching. What if the world is what it appears to be empirically -- a series of random events? I got out of bed in a bit of a troubled state and began asking the i Ching questions, hoping it would reassure me. "Give me a sign that there is really someone -- or something -- out there," I asked. Something beyond my conscious mind that knows more than my conscience mind is aware of. I got nothing to hand my hat on. Then I said. "OK if you're real, give me a reading that has anything to do with water." Nothing. Then I asked a specific question about an event, and it danced around the issue in a way that I could interpret it as a direct response or i could interrupt it as just noise.

This morning I continued my testing of the oracle. And while it occasionally did respond (Give me a reading having to do with finances, response 14 was one of the accurate responses), most of the time it seemed way off.

Any thoughts?
Very interesting everything you say.
I think its human to need to hear that you are heard from what exists out there.
Some time ago I felt the need to pray for a person. I haven’t find my way to pray, so I said to God ( or pick the name it suits you). “ You can do whatever you have planed to do but I want you to be there with that person and take care of him” Well, perhaps not the most appropriate way to communicate with the one up there but it was what I felt I wanted to say. The next day, I had some strange feelings and asked Yi “ what do I need to know” and got 27>19. Nourisment (27) and “The caring eye” (this is Lise’s title of 19).. I felt I was heard.

Have you ever take part to the “cycle of trust” ? ( don’t recall the correct word ). It’s the game that one stands with closed eyes in the middle of a cycle form by other peoples. Then that person, has to let the control of its body of and leave the others to hold him/her. If you are afraid that they wont catch you and you will fall down, your body is rigid and you can’t do it. If you can deeply trust the others, then you surrender and if you manage that, its an extremely awesome experience.

Then I asked a specific question about an event, and it danced around the issue in a way that I could interpret it as a direct response or i could interrupt it as just noise.
that reminded me of that cycle. I have been in that center for some times. At the beginning you mind tell “watch out!! Try not to fall down” but after some moments, your body, which feels the hands of the people outside, your senses say surrender.

There are times that things happen around us but we can’t see it, or we see them and don’t know what to make of them. Are all those random things random and we make them meaningful ? Yes ? No? … Don’t know and some times , to be honest I don't need to know and those are the times i feel it.
I'm not sure what Yi's "irrelevant" answers wants to tell you. My impressions is that the Yi actually gives you an answer which is not in the lines or the hex but in the way its answers you. Perhaps to use more your gut feelings than your mind. To sense and not "understand" with your rational mind .
 

elvis

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Last night, lying in bed, beginning to doze off, I awoke suddenly with a serious crisis of faith re. the i Ching. What if the world is what it appears to be empirically -- a series of random events?.....
This morning I continued my testing of the oracle. And while it occasionally did respond (Give me a reading having to do with finances, response 14 was one of the accurate responses), most of the time it seemed way off.
Any thoughts?
Your issue is your faith in a 10th century BC perspective that is out of date, grounded in delusions but intuitively 'on to something'.

Your methodology of using magical/random means to elicit hexagrams etc AS IF the result was valid and excluded all else will let you down since your consciousness cannot deal with the WHOLE of the meaning, only parts.

Using the I Ching to interpret reality is to use it as a filtering system and as such the whole of the I Ching defines 'all there is'. Thus at ANY moment the whole of the I Ching applies as a form of language to describe things. Its structure (derived from recursion) means that it DOES identify purpose etc but not in the traditional formats where such formats developed from ad-hoc processes eventually leading into a specialist perspective (the traditional sequence) that is NOT the coverage of the universal form of the I Ching (where such is covered in the binary sequence).

Given ANY moment, ALL of the I Ching hexagrams apply from a universal perspective but the local context differences means the set of hexagrams will sort into best-fit/worst-fit order. Using traditional methods will not give you any consistency in identifying that order; will not give you any possible way of TESTING the results.

Can we identify purpose using the I Ching? Sure can. Can we identify high precision details of a situation? Sure can. BUT not from using the traditional questioning methods since such try to focus on the I Ching as some sort of 'independent' form from the participant - that is unlikely (unless you rigidly choose to believe in some 'god' etc)

To get back faith in the I Ching I suggest you review the alternative forms of usage where such includes trust in your unconscious, parallel, skills in interpreting reality and using those with the I Ching to give you a better understanding of where things are in the big picture and how to place your self in a position of advantage in such.

IN the big picture level you, as a conscious individual, are meaningless. BUT knowing the patterns of the big picture enables you to follow the way of the superior, enables you to interpret contexts well, to assess situations decide if you want to fit-in or assert your own context or move on.

Asking such questions in the form of "give me a sign" are not helpful since the answers, based on the methods used, are unreliable.

Analysis of your issues with faith cover what is motivating the crisis etc and from there we can derive a representation of the situation and what can be done about it. Traditional methods will not do that for you in a consistent manner.

It is now 21st century AD and we have moved on from the primitive mindsets and mythic thinking of the 10th century BC. We have better ways to identify meanings and so patterns of information and in such work we find the language nature of the I Ching where the mythic element is now refined through use of directed thinking and so high precision analysis that allows us to see the 'truth' behind the facade of the traditional I Ching.

PS - note that the discovery of purpose identifiable from the I Ching for ANY context is a statistical form, a GROUP focus, where we have to always recognise the randomising capabilities of consciousness. GIven this, note that the patterns derived in the I Ching are patterns present in the universe in that the adaptation of the neuron to the universe reflects the internalisation of the methodology of such in the form of pattern of differentiating (yang) and integrating (yin); The I Ching is a metaphor for representing these patterns locally.

The overall play is across symmetry, anti-symmetry, and asymmetry where such reflect the adaptation of life to a thermodynamic universe. Thus languages such as the I Ching retain the holistic, mythic, element but at the same time contain the elements we use in precision that covers partials, the delay of directed and so consciousness thinking.
 
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bamboo

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Tonight I was listening to an old Cd I had by deepak chopra. This was unsettling to me in exactly the opposite way from you, Bostonian, but perhaps you will find solace. He talked of an experience he had going to see an Indian astrologer, I forget the name of the kind of astrology it is, maybe it isnt even astrology, but something similar. The pronounciation is "jotish" not sure how it is spelled

Deepak went in with skepticism. He didnt really believe that it was valid. There are Indian priests who give what they call nadi readings. Nadis are inked bark sheets .
It is not a chart written up at the time the person has come for the reading. The nadi that they use has been written 100s of years ago, maybe even 1000 yrs ago. It was read to Chopra by the old priest in a language different from Deepaks, and interpreted in Hindi by an old man sitting by .

I am not sure how they find the nadi that corresponds to the person being read for.I think they use thumb prints. BUt as the old priest began to read this ancient script carved into bark, he described the details of Deepak's life. He told him his fathers name, told of his father's recent death, his mothers name and the names, ages of his children. He told Deepak his mother's name was Lucinta and Deepak thought he had found a discrepancy. BUt a call to his mother revealed that his mother's birth name ws indeed Lucinta but it had been informally changed shortly after birth to Pushpa, the name deepak knew. Few, not Deepak, had known that this had happened. The priest had no idea who Deepak was, he was just chanting the info on the nadi -inked bark sheets. He went on to tell Deepak many many facts of his life, and finally, with D's request, he told him the date of his death.

Unsettling to me was the sense that everything is pre-determined, but I don't think this was the message. More so, the old priest was reading a nadi wrtten by someone 100s of years ago who was sensing a pattern of energy being played out. It was future but in a sense nothing is future, everything is now, and patterns of energy can be changed.

in the cosmic design of life you are safe and known

you are not in the world, the world is in YOU. It is not someone, anything OUT THERE.

we read the Yi not to get concrete info about ourselves or others but to sense the patterns of energy playing out.

with awareness and a sense of timelessness, we as creative beings can alter reality; we are not puppets, but creative participants. nothing is random, there is design and purpose
 

elvis

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BTW - a quick assessment of your questions etc indicate a focus on (a) issues with values (faith in something 'out there') and (b) with what was/is/will-be (is it there or not)

This immediately places you in the position covering issues of security. It covers a context grounded in betrayal by another/others and covers all hexagrams with water and wind as the base trigrams. (from a primary emotions context the focus is on issues of rejection and anticipation of wrong doing. Only when refined do these become rejecting and anticipation of right doing (cultivation))

Your reactive nature (repeated asking etc as reaction) suggests a bias to issue of water and with that a focus on protection, on containment/control issues in the context of sensing some level of betrayal (by the IC?) - water covers 'contractive bounding', the enclosure of someone/something to protect, either to keep things out or to keep something in. ("with containment comes control" - hex 29)

This gives you eight hexagrams to cover where one is more reflective of your situation:

07 - with containment comes absolute trust in another
04 - with containment comes discernment
29 - with containment comes control
59 - with containment comes becoming influencial
40 - with containment comes awareness
64 - with containment comes a sense of direction (ideology)
47 - with containment comes intensity in expression
06 - with containment comes singlemindedness (absolute trust in self)

XOR with 63 to get the completion/purpose of the hexagram.
XOR with 24 to get where/how it all began.
etc
etc
etc
 
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meng

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Bamboo, I don't mind the idea of predestination, as long as it's from the future perspective. There's a difference. If I am here, looking out there (in time), the idea that my future is fixed is appalling. Maybe that's the emotion you'd described? But - when I stand out there, looking here, predestination becomes a simple matter of fact. Only when I then turn to face the future does predestination piss me off. chuckle
 

heylise

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Maybe it is like that. Looking back, it is as if everything had to happen the way it did. It is what shows of your tao, you live and you think a lot of it is random. You just happen to take a turn here, a turn there, something happens to cross your path, so you take one of many possible roads. Could just as well have gone in another direction. It seems...

Universe came into being in this same way. Seemingly random, but I think random is much more that we think it is. Like the coins which fall down in a random way. But a fraction of a difference in the side they "choose", or tao chooses for them, changes the reading. That fraction, that is why random is the only way to make tao work. No decision can ever match that tiny push of that tiny difference, pushing fate exactly where it 'wants' to go.

Knowing that 'something' much bigger than me chooses my direction is a wonderful thought to me. It doesn't feel like cold predestination, but as if I really am part of universe. Looking back I know it could not have happened otherwise. Looking forward I know I will go where I am supposed to go. My own decisions are an important part of that as well. But more I can 'let them happen' and less 'make them happen', the closer I will get to my true destination. Letting happen does not mean sit back and just wait, it is something very active. When you sit back, you become victim of decisions of things or people outside yourself. Letting happen feels rather like "letting myself make them" instead of "making myself make them".

Hm, not sure it still makes sense.

Great thread!
 

elvis

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...
Knowing that 'something' much bigger than me chooses my direction is a wonderful thought to me. It doesn't feel like cold predestination, but as if I really am part of universe. Looking back I know it could not have happened otherwise. Looking forward I know I will go where I am supposed to go. My own decisions are an important part of that as well. But more I can 'let them happen' and less 'make them happen', the closer I will get to my true destination. Letting happen does not mean sit back and just wait, it is something very active. When you sit back, you become victim of decisions of things or people outside yourself. Letting happen feels rather like "letting myself make them" instead of "making myself make them".
The way of the inferior is the way of letting one be pushed by context and as such leaving one's 'fate' in the hands of a dynamic universe that is NOT focused on 'you' per se.

The way of the superior is KNOWING the POSSIBLE forms of contexts and being in a position to CHOOSE whether you want to be there or introduce a 'better' perspective or move on. The power of consciousness is the randomising agent of free will; it can kill you but it can also make you and as such ties to probabilistic thinking and so risk.

The traditional methods of the I Ching cover the way of the inferior - you believe you are being pushed around etc and use the IC to indicate what is happening and/or what will happen.

That focus is childlike and we are not children any more - we have to grow up and take on responsibilities for actions and as such get involved in understanding the forms of the universe and how to manage their details and so move smoothly, efficiently, within those forms (as well as seed changes into other forms if possible).

It is possible to identify, through the I Ching, all forms of purpose and so determine where situations are going etc - and that includes oneself as a species member (gets into group personas etc). THEN comes consciousness that can take one the exstra distance to transcend situations, to experience enlightements etc.

Faith in SELF, devotion to self, is a focus on sensation seeking, going after the 'buzz'. IN five-phase this is the realm of METAL (forms of exchange, cooperative and competitive).

Faith in ANOTHER/OTHERS, devotion to such, is a focus on identity seeking, gaining identity from the context rather than asserting one's own context. IN five phase this is the realm of EARTH (forms of filtration, quality control etc)

Understanding the forms of the universe enables management of one's position in such and so self-determination over others-determination, unless you LIKE others-determination ;)
 

bostonian

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thank you all so much. This has been a great learning experience. And i do feel much better now.
 
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pantherpanther

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Maybe it is like that. Looking back, it is as if everything had to happen the way it did. It is what shows of your tao, you live and you think a lot of it is random. You just happen to take a turn here, a turn there, something happens to cross your path, so you take one of many possible roads. Could just as well have gone in another direction. It seems...

Universe came into being in this same way. Seemingly random, but I think random is much more that we think it is. Like the coins which fall down in a random way. But a fraction of a difference in the side they "choose", or tao chooses for them, changes the reading. That fraction, that is why random is the only way to make tao work. No decision can ever match that tiny push of that tiny difference, pushing fate exactly where it 'wants' to go.

Knowing that 'something' much bigger than me chooses my direction is a wonderful thought to me. It doesn't feel like cold predestination, but as if I really am part of universe. Looking back I know it could not have happened otherwise. Looking forward I know I will go where I am supposed to go. My own decisions are an important part of that as well. But more I can 'let them happen' and less 'make them happen', the closer I will get to my true destination. Letting happen does not mean sit back and just wait, it is something very active. When you sit back, you become victim of decisions of things or people outside yourself. Letting happen feels rather like "letting myself make them" instead of "making myself make them".

Hm, not sure it still makes sense.

Great thread!
Doesn't "Change" rule? Yet there is the possibility of (free) will, when I am related to both Heaven and Earth, two interacting levels of major complexity ? The person who can 'do' by 'not-doing', in the words of the Tao-Te-Ching , is in an "undifferentiated, in-between state, " also, a "letting go" in which the past may be used to prepare the future.

Compare Mircea Eliade, writing of being "centered" in a sacred space: " A sacred place constitutes a break in the homogeneity of space ... symbolized by an opening by which passage from one cosmic region to another is made possible "( The Sacred and the Profane)

In the Tibetan teaching the moment of death offers an opportunity to connect with the 'central hole where creation takes place' - that is, with the 'emptiness' that is at the center of things. According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it appears at that time as 'clear light'. If we are capable of realizing what is going on at that moment we may gain control over the creative process in which emptiness manifests in form and conscious reincarnation becomes possible. An example of a way one can 'do' by 'not-doing. ' Repairing the past, preparing the future in the present. Free will?
 
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my_key

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[FONT=&quot]It was Joseph Cambell who said "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do." i.e ego giving way to the self. So maybe each turn here and there at random seems like that to the ego, however the self knows different at a level that the ego cannot ever comprehend.

There was a program I saw a while back about a quartz crystal being hit by something and giving out vibrations at frequencies that emulated the prime numbers - seemingly the most random things known to man until recently. Since I saw that program I find it hard to see anything as random.

Perhaps letting go of my past views to allow a predetermined future. I'm choosing to make this statement knowing that it is only a a single point level amongst many I could have chosen, hoping to bring a better perspective to this thread and at the same time knowing that I risk being ignored, made fun of or worse........agreed with.:D
I'm not clear if that makes me inferior or superior....

Agree with LiSe-great thread

Mike
[/FONT]
 

fkegan

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thank you all so much. This has been a great learning experience. And i do feel much better now.
Hi Bostonian et all,

Glad to hear you are feeling better, though I note that change resulted without any input from the Yi Oracle to prove itself.

Randomness is a fascinating concept, especially as it requires first that one defines what is to be considered proper order so that everything else can be denigrated as lacking that order and thus random.

The ultimate challenge is to recognize that our current beliefs remain incomplete and subject to correction, either by others now or in the future. The medieval Scholastics declared they knew ALL since they combined their own views of the Bible with their own translation of Aristotle. Later academics changed their views on both, but kept the notion that NOW science knows everything worth knowing and anything not now known must be random or without any knowable order.

Claims that we are so much more advanced than others from prior times would be more credible except for 2 serious problems: First, most of the great problems of today are simply logical consequences of what was hailed earlier as great technological advances. The marketable advance was hailed and the downside ignored until the stuff exhausted "outside" somehow filled our limited planet and came back as 'new' problems arising from the 'environment.'

Second, there is an amazing similarity of views from many peoples over many times. One the view of societies that have lasted for millennia with the notions that all life upon the Earth are the children of Father Sun and Mother Earth and we all need to strive together as one family to assure that we all continue generation after generation.
The other that never lasts even half a millennium at a time, though the survivors who start anew may claim to be continuing the former glorious society. These short lived societies live by conquest of new lands and destruction of everything they conquer for their own immediate benefit.

Any claim ours is a society more advanced than the ancients should wait until we manage to solve the myriad problems of our own shortcomings so threatening survival to the next century.

Overall, sometimes one may pose a question to the Oracle and find great insight and value from its answer. Sometimes one can't. Whether that raises deep issues about the power and nature of the Oracle or about our own failings is a personal choice.

Frank
 

pantherpanther

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[FONT=&quot]It was Joseph Cambell who said "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do." i.e ego giving way to the self. So maybe each turn here and there at random seems like that to the ego, however the self knows different at a level that the ego cannot ever comprehend.

There was a program I saw a while back about a quartz crystal being hit by something and giving out vibrations at frequencies that emulated the prime numbers - seemingly the most random things known to man until recently. Since I saw that program I find it hard to see anything as random.
...
Perhaps letting go of my past views to allow a predetermined future. I'm choosing to make this statement knowing that it is only a a single point level amongst many I could have chosen, hoping to bring a better perspective to this thread and at the same time knowing that I risk being ignored, made fun of or worse........agreed with.:D
I'm not clear if that makes me inferior or superior....

Agree with LiSe-great thread

Mike
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In defense of free will and the ego.

Bill Segal wrote, "When self remembers Self, there is no more self." The ego is necessary as long as I live. Without it, I having nothing to work with. If I learn and perhaps "evolve," it's my means to do that. There is Jung's Individuation, Campbell's Hero's Journey ,etc. That is metaphor.

The ego can be educated and even convinced to obey the inner work of a "potential" Self seeking completion. Every real teacher I have known began from zero every day. There was the ego to be acknowledged and "put in it's place" by a developed will for transformation, brought anew to life and cultivated by experienced, skilled effort.

This notion of "self" is never the Self. Here can know here , it cannot know there. If life were "predestined," than what meaning has my life? I can learn to live in this world with this imaginary self : is that "freedom"?

There is the counsel that if one wishes for enlightenment, it won't be achieved.
 
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rosada

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Just wanted to thank you, Bostonian, for initiating this topic - Randomness: How to connect?

My take is that is is all random, what happens and how we respond to what happens. I never know what I'm going to say any more than I know what you're going to say. But I do have an idea of what effect I want to create and as I am clear about the effect I want to create, the more trusting I am of Randomness, because I know It wants me to be happy.

That's as far as I've gotten in my thinking.
-rosada
 

elvis

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Just wanted to thank you, Bostonian, for initiating this topic - Randomness: How to connect?

My take is that is is all random, what happens and how we respond to what happens. I never know what I'm going to say any more than I know what you're going to say.
(1) ANY containment of noise will elicit the spontaneous generation of order through self-referencing (aka recursion). Google "Chaos Game". The hierarchy present covers containers within containers and so on - what is noise at one level is order at another.
The feedback dynamic involved allow for order to emerge quickly such that what started as 'random' can lead to order. Thus the specialist form of the I Ching (in its binary sequence order) reflects the 'mindless', 'mechanistic', nature of recursion coming out of containment of noise. The IDM work has then identified a phase transition in this process where the mechanistic gives way to the organic and so the 'language' nature of the I Ching emerges (use of XOR etc)

(2) You seem to equate 'you' with conscious experience - but the truth of the matter is there is more going on unconsciously - as demonstrated in casual conversion where we are not aware of what comes out of mouths until we speak. Formal conversation comes with delay where consciousness 'prepares' what is to be said (and more so when, rather than speech, we write it all down, edit it, etc etc)

(3) The traditional I Ching methodologies cover (a) the pre-determination of the fall of the coin/yarrow stick (superdeterminism) or (b) the use of random events to elicit some aspect of the whole not considered in one's reflections on a situation.

The more non-traditional methods such as the EIC are more consistent with their results and contain a lot of data covering pre and post the event under consideration (we can determine from a class levels how it began, how it will end etc) - this data available from the unconscious and its ability to process events holistically, symmetrically. Symmetry comes with properties we can then analyse for details.
 

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...

Claims that we are so much more advanced than others from prior times would be more credible except for 2 serious problems: First, most of the great problems of today are simply logical consequences of what was hailed earlier as great technological advances. The marketable advance was hailed and the downside ignored until the stuff exhausted "outside" somehow filled our limited planet and came back as 'new' problems arising from the 'environment.'

Second, there is an amazing similarity of views from many peoples over many times....Frank

(1) The works in neuroscience etc bring out the language nature of the I Ching and so the ability to get it to describe itself by reference to itself - but as CLASSES of meanings. Such has NOT been covered in the past and as such reflects an advancement in understanding of brain dynamics and meaning generation in general and what is behind the traditional I Ching in particular. Thus the countless interpretations of the meanings of the I Ching have never used the I Ching itself to describe itself due to ignorance of the ability to do so. NOW we can do so where consciousness contributes by adding instance data (local context dynamics) to the class data we can get from the I Ching describing itself (its universals format).

(2) ALL meaning across all members of the species is grounded at a concrete level of single context interactions with the immediate environment limited by the horizons of the sensory systems. FROM that level has developed neural hierarchy that introduces the use of ABSTRACTIONS and of the MANY languages (metaphors) derived over the gnerations due to IGNORANCE of the properties and methods of that concrete level of being.

The more specialisations focus on mapping reality so the more they take-on the 'shape' of our filtering system - the neurology. As such all of these perspectives are isomorphic and this is exploitable in such as the EIC where we take meaning generation from emotions (fight/flight) and meaning generation from I Ching (yang/yin) and translate one into the other through the IDM template.

The language property of the I Ching allows us to see ANYTHING In the I Ching since, as a language, it is capabable of representing anything. Issues are then in the details and THAT is supplied by personal consciousness having access to names/dates/places etc etc
 

bamboo

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I like what Bruce and Lise described.

I remember once a person asked " well, if all is predestined, then what good is it to have an
A-HA moment that changes your life, your actions and the course of your destiny?" and the answer was that the A-Ha moment was also predestined...not pre-destined in the sense that it had to happen, but that it would happen. So in that sense, it makes a lot of sense what LiSe said, allowing things to happen, not making or forcing.

so in a way there is always free will and the ability to fully cooperate with an unfolding , expanding universe. The ego is helpful server, the ego births the desires for unfolding, translates the energies into ideas and potential actions.

Interesting point that Deepak Chopra made about Nadis. They are not written for every single living being, but only for those who will one day come looking for their jotish reading.

There was also a fascinating book awhile back called , I think, The Code. ( not The Souls Code, another book) . The Code was mathematical grids - I cant explain it in technical terms, sorry - but in those grids were points for each individual person, revealing the life of that person. BUt each point had not only one life attached to it, but also alternate lives, like parallel lives. Reminded me of that movie with Gwyneth Paltrow called Sliding Doors. She passed thru glass doors and found her same self living a parallel life, while the whole other life still played out on the other side of the glass door...in the movie, she went back and forth. It also reminded me of the movie with Nicholas cage, Family Man. He is given a glimpse of his other, parallel life, very different from the one he had chosen. In this movie, he changed course and was able to merge the two lives.

sometimes I have had the definite sense that there was a parallel life for me, almost so close I could breathe it and feel it. I wonder if the boundaries we put around ourselves are much more permeable than we might imagine.
 

bostonian

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was also predestined...not pre-destined in the sense that it had to happen,
So if i understand you right, if I'm standing at a vantage point where I can see two cars hurdling towards each other, but the drivers, because of a curve in the road don't see it, the crash is predestined but not predetermined. Right?
 

pantherpanther

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(1) The works in neuroscience etc bring out the language nature of the I Ching and so the ability to get it to describe itself by reference to itself - but as CLASSES of meanings. Such has NOT been covered in the past and as such reflects an advancement in understanding of brain dynamics and meaning generation in general and what is behind the traditional I Ching in particular. Thus the countless interpretations of the meanings of the I Ching have never used the I Ching itself to describe itself due to ignorance of the ability to do so. NOW we can do so where consciousness contributes by adding instance data (local context dynamics) to the class data we can get from the I Ching describing itself (its universals format).

(2) ALL meaning across all members of the species is grounded at a concrete level of single context interactions with the immediate environment limited by the horizons of the sensory systems. FROM that level has developed neural hierarchy that introduces the use of ABSTRACTIONS and of the MANY languages (metaphors) derived over the gnerations due to IGNORANCE of the properties and methods of that concrete level of being.

The more specialisations focus on mapping reality so the more they take-on the 'shape' of our filtering system - the neurology. As such all of these perspectives are isomorphic and this is exploitable in such as the EIC where we take meaning generation from emotions (fight/flight) and meaning generation from I Ching (yang/yin) and translate one into the other through the IDM template.

The language property of the I Ching allows us to see ANYTHING In the I Ching since, as a language, it is capabable of representing anything. Issues are then in the details and THAT is supplied by personal consciousness having access to names/dates/places etc etc

Neurology has not yet developed a science of consciousness .
The I Ching is derived from pre-historical teachings that were
based on knowledge that included many levels of consciousness,
later represented by number , symbol and language.

The range of the five physical senses in most contemporary humans is
limited. Compared to our ancestors, it seems likely the range has
declined over the centuries, although there have been small groups
who have known ways to develop the range of different senses.

Perhaps the most sensitive human sense is hearing. Most humans have
a ten octave range; whereas in the case of sight, a two octave range.
We see in three colors, while other species see in four and include the ultraviolet and infrared spectrum. In the case of smell, some dogs have 100 times the range of humans: a dog can sense a drop of a drug in a swimming pool.

There are finer senses than the five that humans have and can develop, just as there are many levels of consciousness that are possible for us.

It is not surprising that oral transmission and the precise use of sound formulas (among other practices) are part of the traditional means for learning texts such as the I Ching.

You write:The language property of the I Ching allows us to see ANYTHING In the I Ching since, as a language, it is capabable of representing anything. Issues are then in the details and THAT is supplied by personal consciousness having access to names/dates/places etc etc
Who is doing the seeing? Traditional scholars today and sages in the past mastered a wide range of arts and sciences as a necessary part of their study. Confucius was a skilled musician, yet he taught calligraphy and other arts as well. ( I recall a legend he taught 1000 -or 3000? - pupils in his school the different required fields - including the I Ching- but only 77 were graduated and approved )

A Western historical study of any tradition - as its arts, literature, sacred texts and so on has its value. To be cognizant of the simultaneous, multiple meanings and associations for words and images requires a thorough familiarity with a culture. And the inner teachings and keys to texts like the I Ching were traditionally kept secret and reserved for the few. This secrecy is less the case now, although access to the keys is still accessible to the few who are prepared to learn it - a self-selective process. The Chinese have a saying that there are few who know and among those who know there are few who teach.
 
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