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moss elk

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There is no way to say this without offending some people but it needs to be said.


I was talking last night with someone I have known for a while. I did not know however that they casually dabbled with a Law of Attraction cult, the one where a charlatan claims to be speaking with a being named Abraham. They sent me some emails of 'Abraham' talking. I read through them and noticed all of the signs of a cult, including subtle insinuations of how to deal with people who are not in the cult.

I asked Yi, "Something is definitely wrong here, what is wrong with these people?"

7.3
A militia likely to transport fatalities
Brutal


Incompetence. (of mind)
Incapacity. (of mind)

Good to know.
 
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Freedda

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I asked Yi, "Something is definitely wrong here, what is wrong with these people?" 7.3
This reminds me of what Carl Jung thought about addiction; my substitutions are (in parenthesis) '...

'... Jung believed, (a cult) involves a spiritual thirst for a sense of wholeness – the true secret of its numinous power and the reason why a person can be led into (a cult). He understood ... that only a radical conversion to something equally satisfying to the individual at a deep level can promote recovery.

Furthermore, he sensed the intense loneliness forced upon (cult members) by the shame and secrecy of their (wound, abuse, addiction ...), not unlike the sense of isolation he himself had experienced as a child and adolescent. He likened the growing sense of alienation of (a cult member) to being “outside the protective wall of human community ....'

So perhaps on one level, there is an 'incompetence or incapacity of mind' but it may also be revealing an underying longing for wholeness and connection. And I can imagine the 'brutal transport of fatalities' as a description of how an addict, or a lonely or abused/wounded person might feel.

Looking back at my own life, this seems like a more accurate description of how I felt when I was following a popular guru in my mix-up teens: his group and his followers seemed to offer a lot of what a cult or even a gang offers - not the least of which is a sense of belonging.

all the best ....
 
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moss elk

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In the best end of the cult spectrum,
one might look at ashrams or religious temple programs where people get a surrogate family who loves them and guides them for a while. I know two wonderful people who lived in them for a while in their young adult years.

It is very sad when wounded people reach out to the wrong people, having never known healthy love.
 

Lavalamp

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"...what is wrong with these people?" 7.3 > 46

46 as context. This reading is about ascension, advancement and growth. One needs to see the Great Man.
7.3 The reason the wagon carries corpses in this line is because the leaders are not very good. So they are inefficient at what they do, and people die.

There is no criticism of "these people" as you put it -of the Army seeking a meaningful religious discipline - in this reading.
The criticism is of the leadership not being real great. The Yi does not even criticize their beliefs, really.

As a side note regarding cults, today's cult is tomorrow's orthodoxy. Most all large religious disciplines and denominations - well, that are large now - required once the same kind of dedication and faith that you see in the fringe groups. Some were a lot more truthful, beautiful and spiritually connected and so they lasted, those that were not died.

Anyway there is certainly a spiritual world, but just because they talk to you doesn't mean they have something meaningful to say. Lots of dead people at various incomplete stages of personal evolution floating around with all kinds of motivations - just like the living have. I always figured if you want to talk to the dead - aim high. Like Jesus or Buddha or Lao Tsu or something like that. Your Holy Guardian Angel. Other than that the channeling stuff like Seth and all that tends to get kinds wacky in my view, but the Yi doesn't directly criticize followers or such beliefs here, it says the leaders aren't good and will get people killed ( spiritually I assume.)

- LL
 
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Freedda

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I always figured if you want to talk to the dead - aim high.
I suppose that's one way of looking at it. There's a woman near where I live who 'channels' a 'being' named Ramtha. She claims he is a Lemurian warrior who fought the Atlanteans over 35,000 years ago (so he pre-dates the Yijing by 33,000 years or so!). I gather that some people think he imparts great wisdom - and he's certainly imparted great wealth for the woman who channels him.

However I would really prefer hearing from a 19th Century bagel maker named Moshe, who lived in the Warsaw Ghetto, and when you ask him a question, his first response is, 'oy, you're asking me?' I just feel I'd get a lot more wisdom and honesty from Moshe than I every would from Ms. Knight and her Ramtha buddy.

Besides that my mom always said, don't play on the freeway, don't play with matches, and don't ever, ever trust a Lemurian - especially a really old one!

all the best ....
 
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rosada

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You asked about cults and got the hexagram Army? I think that is so perfect! They have all the essential qualities in common including unquestioning devotion to a leader, a sense of community, and a highly idealistic vision of their purpose! Great match!

7.3 is the crucial transition line between the earthly and the heavenly trigrams so maybe carrying the corpses into battle as an effort to cross over to a higher level is symbolic of blindly following a leader who has no power. So following a cult leader is like believing a dead man can save us? (Oops, just realized that sounds like a description of Christianity!)

Maybe the core problem comes from following any earthly leader instead of our own inner guidance.

Maybe 7.3 changing into 46. describes the cult member ultimately recognizing following the group mind (45) has taken him as far as he can go and it's time to - 46 - head out on his own.

Anyway, I think 7.3-46 is a useful explanation of what is wrong with cults and why one should be wary of them but I also think we have to be careful not to think that any one who gets value from considering the ideas promoted by cults/churches/support groups have given up their freewill. How do you determine who is a member of a cult anyway?
 

moss elk

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Maybe the core problem comes from following any earthly leader instead of our own inner guidance.

We are all born with the instinct to follow adults. I believe part of maturity is when we cease to follow others and, like you said,
become our own leader. So, in effect, cults take advantage of immaturity, and continue to stunt the developmental growth of the person. I consider that a great crime.


How do you determine who is a member of a cult anyway?

How did you know your friend was caught up with the Jim Jones Cult?
(you used your eyes and ears)

Did I misunderstand your question?
 
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mandarin_23

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I read through them and noticed all of the signs of a cult, including subtle insinuations of how to deal with people who are not in the cult.

This may also be a meaning of 46, the lower trigram containing "subtle insinuations", which are hidden to the public with Earth as a lower trigram. 46 can be "pushing upward, progreding, growing", can be growing influence ... but anyway there is still something hidden in it.

And thus 46 builds a a pair with 45, which is a society in the open, just the opposite.

Also, in hexagram 7, there is grief and also danger, symbolized in the water trigram. An abyss. The leader in hexagram, the strong line, is waiting for a command and collecting his forces. With 7.3, there might be - a conflict of authority, denying responsibility for your own actions, listening to the voices of the dead. People are loosing their their connections with the past, which is at the core of religion, and get aggressive.

The 7.3 person probably needs to be able to wait and listen to what life asks from him or her, and otherwise it is just very dangerous, a shadow army with a leader who isn't right. A situation leading nowhere.

The fan Yao is the "empty city" line of 3. Again, no life in it.
 

mandarin_23

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I read through them and noticed all of the signs of a cult, including subtle insinuations of how to deal with people who are not in the cult.

This may also be a meaning of 46, the lower trigram containing "subtle insinuations", which are hidden to the public with Earth as a lower trigram. 46 can be "pushing upward", can be growing influence ... but anyway there is still something hidden in it, something we don't know. Not yet.

And thus 46 builds a a pair with 45, which is a society in the open, just the opposite.

Also, in hexagram 7, there is danger, symbolized in the water trigram. An abyss. The leader in hexagram, the strong line, is waiting for his king's command. With 7.3, there might be - a conflict of authority, an urge to act prematurely, or incapacity to act, no sense of responsibility, listening to the commands of the dead - not really connected to their inner source, their own being.

Combined with 46, it is an image of having to grow up and out. When you are a young person, you need to seek your own ways - push upward. You'd need some freedom to explore, maybe the "empty city" of 46.3, which is a bit scary, and you'd also want some closer connection with others, some role models, guidance, a father. There can be conflict. Subordination. Dependency. As Freeda wrote:

Looking back at my own life, this seems like a more accurate description of how I felt when I was following a popular guru in my mix-up teens: his group and his followers seemed to offer a lot of what a cult or even a gang offers - not the least of which is a sense of belonging.



Some sense of "initiation" of a young warrior seems to be in this line, as cults often talk of "inaugurations" or things like that. Vulnerable young people are probably attracted by cults as long as they are grown up enough to ask questions, but still not ready to make their own decisions. There can be abuse.

So these are immature people.
 
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fai_35

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..all of the signs of a cult, ..
I asked Yi, "Something is definitely wrong here, what is wrong with these people?"
Hi Moss, to add to the thread:
Hexagram 7 师 in this case refers to a group of people gathered by a leader; one can view such a group as an army with clear demarcations of hierarchy and power.

Line 3 likens the group to be carrying corpses, and no good can come out of such. That’s the imagery of the line. This yin line in a yang position (as Mandarin had alluded to) refers to the quality of the leader – he (or she) is not up to it, he’d most likely lead such people that he so gathered to dead ends. Therein lies the ‘wrong’.

Hexagram 46 升 speaks of ascendance, advancing upwards; that it is useful to see the great person, no worries. I read this to mean that if/when you rise above such 'encounters', you have nothing to worry about regarding such a group of people (as likely you have already seen the great person, and already seen them as ‘wrong’).

The last part 南征吉 “taking corrective action in the south bodes well” – suggests (I speculate) that a warmer (the southerly clime) disposition towards such people stands one in good stead.
 
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Freedda

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I was pondering this a bit more last night, and I found the video, 'The Secret' and started watching it. And in case you don't know, the video 'The Secret' is what the book about the law of attraction is based on.

A few minutes into watching it, I realized that I had seen this before, and I had the same reaction now as I did then: I found it unbelievable, boring and hokey, and so I stopped watching it. And I was also put off by the not-so-subtle message that all things wrong with me and my world were the result of my negative thoughts, and that without this secret knowledge, I would remain incomplete, imperfect, and a mere pawn among the 99%ers.

In other words, for me 'The Secret' has the same look and feel as late, late night infomercials I have seen where a supposedly wealthy real estate mogal is on his yacht, surrounded by beautiful scantly-clad models and we are told that we too can be just like him - a 1%er - if we really want to - for the amazing price of only three payments of ....
... they casually dabbled with a Law of Attraction cult .... They sent me some emails of (a being) 'Abraham' talking. I read through them and noticed all of the signs of a cult ...
I don't think that the 'Law of Attraction' belief is really a cult, but it is likey that some people can take these ideas and incorporate them into their cult-like beliefs and actions.

But then again, I can imagine Moss Elk's friends saying:

'Last night we were talking with Moss Elk and he told us he consults a book called the I Ching, or the Book of Changes. He said that when people consult this book, it answers all their questions. We did a bit of research and we found that some people refer to the I Ching as a 'Magic Talking Book' and that others believe it imparts to us wisdom from a group of ascended, perfect beings called the 'Ancestors'.

'We started to worry because this was feeling very much like a cult, so we asked our ascended being, Abraham, 'something is definitely wrong here, what is wrong with these people?' ... and Abraham responded:

"These people are acting like peasants who have been inscripted into the Emperors's army against their will. They blindly follow the advice and orders given to them by their superiors (the I Ching);. They have just lost a battle and are dragging a wagon full of corpses behind them - as if they are being dragged down and defeated by their own 'dead' thoughts, feelings and beliefs."

... all the best ...
 
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moss elk

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Funny. :)

Just to point out a few obvious differences with Yi:

No belief is required.
No subservience is required.
No mind control occurs.
No one is milking my wallet.
No one is pressuring me into sex.
....etc
 
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Freedda

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Just to point out a few obvious differences with Yi:
No belief is required. No subservience is required. No mind control occurs. No one is milking my wallet. No one is pressuring me into sex.
....etc
I don't know. According to your friend's advice from Abraham (albeit made-up) - which is strikingly similar to 7.3 - that's exactly what you are doing. Does thou protest too much? 😋

In my imperfect 99%er way, my story was not meant to be exact or perfect - but only to point out that we can see this from different points of view: just as we might point fingers at others for being 'cult-like'; others might do the same about our using the Yi - and reason or rational arguements on either side might not amount to a hill of beans - or serve to change anyone's mind; people can dig their heels in about using of the Yi just as easily as others can about the law of attraction or about listening to Abraham or Ramtha.

And I also think that I can - if I decided to - believe in and practice the Law of Attraction without blind belief, subservience, or mind control occuring. And I don't have to let anyone milk my wallet. And as to 'pressuring me into sex' - I'll reserve judgement on that one: who knows, at this point in my life, I might not mind a bit of pressuring!

....
 
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Lavalamp

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Just to point out a few obvious differences with Yi:

No belief is required.
No subservience is required.
No mind control occurs.
No one is milking my wallet.
No one is pressuring me into sex.
....etc

I don't see Yi drawing a distinction between what is "legitimate" or "Mainstream religion" and what is "a cult" in this reading at all. It simply says the leader here sucks.

46 is the context hex here. I think describes what religion is. You are trying to ascend. It helps when you are trying to do that, to see a Saint or a Sage - "The Great Man". If you have no need to learn from anyone else, about God or spirituality or anything else that is up to you Moss Elk. But as the Yi says, there is always something ponderous about the self taught.

Cults are not so different than mainstream religion I think, because what is mainstream now once upon a time was a cult. Christians were called a cult by the Romans and the Pharisees. Buddha was rejected and driven out of India into China.

7.3 is in the hex of Army. In religion you have discipleship, the same root word as discipline. If you are serious, it is a discipline. Like maybe the Shaolin Monks or the 12 Disciples, or like my childhood Sri Chaitanya Vashnaiva friends that live in Vrindavana in India. That is what the hex describes.
This line says says this particular religious leader isn't very good, and he's not helping his followers and going to get them killed because he really doesn't know what he's doing. It does not criticize his followers, actually. They must be pretty good at following. But ask again about their judgment and powers of discrimination.

- LL
 
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moss elk

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If you have no need to learn from anyone else, about God or spirituality or anything else that is up to you Moss Elk.

Pardon me?
I would suggest the route of nonengagement with me, As I have given you the same courtesy, and will continue so after this post.

Your display is both profoundly presumptive and ignorant.
If you don't understand why,
ask someone to explain it to you.
 
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Lavalamp

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Pardon me?
I would suggest the route of nonengagement with me, As I have given you the same courtesy, and will continue so after this post.

Your display is both profoundly presumptive and ignorant.
If you don't understand why,
ask someone to explain it to you.

Dude, the point being religion does not force anyone - for example you - to believe in what you do not.
If you do not agree with a group's beliefs fine, the Yi says it is your duty to find another organic fellowship.
The Yi does suggest quite often fellowship is preferable to solo learning, does it not?
You disparage religious groups as cults for what most religious disciplines in fact do require; belief, surrender, financial support and certain rules about about sex ( although you shade the sex clause in the opposite direction.)
A 12 Step recovery program certainly requires most all of that, beleif, surrender to a higher power, no 13 Stepping/don't sleep with your sponsor, help with the meeting expenses, and that is probably the largest religion in America.

[edited by moderator to remove gratuitous personal attack]

- LL
 
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diamanda

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We are all born with the instinct to follow adults. I believe part of maturity is when we cease to follow others and, like you said,
become our own leader. So, in effect, cults take advantage of immaturity, and continue to stunt the developmental growth of the person. I consider that a great crime.
Totally agree, so well said.
I'd like to add a thought on 7.3 > 46:
"Wrong leader and many die, pushing up the daisies and grass grows again".
 

rosada

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"Make America Great Again" - an example of being stuck in the past!:ROFLMAO:
 

Lavalamp

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"Make America Great Again" - an example of being stuck in the past!

Right now, Democrats are calling for a boycott of Goya foods because the CEO went to the White House when asked, and said nice things about the President.
He did the same thing when Obama invited him.
But now in the eyes of some people, you don't have right a right to make a living and put food on your family's table unless you hate the person their political party hates. They will drive you into poverty, take your job, your business, your home, your children's future and education and your retirement unless you hate as they hate.
That is bigotry and that is evil. It is totalitarian and totally fascist, and that it is being done in the name of fighting fascism only makes it even more Orwellian.
I would like to go back to an America where people believed in classic liberal values, like freedom of faith and conscience, freedom of speech and of thought because the better idea will win the day. Before so many people who should know better abandoned Classic Liberal Values.
Rolling Stone editor Matt Taibbi.


- LL
 

moss elk

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But now in the eyes of some people, you don't have right a right to make a living and put food on your family's table unless you hate the person their political party hates. They will drive you into poverty, take your job, your business, your home, your children's future and education and your retirement unless you hate as they hate.
That is bigotry and that is evil.

Unhinged, complete and utter nonsense divorced from reality.
None of that is occuring, no one on this forum ever implied anything remotely like that.
A boycott of any company is in fact the most peaceful way to exercise ones freedom and effect change.
(Remember coca cola and apartheid? Or the Montgomery bus boycott?)
No company has the right to anyone's money.
A boycott is niether bigotry or evil.

Speaking of cults, this sounds like something from fox 'news'.
I can see the confused-dog face boy Tucker saying this, it is fear mongering and false.
tuck.jpeg.jpg
His face always looks like that, he's one of the leaders of the Dim-inatti.
Do you realize you are in a cult?

Dude, the point being religion does not force anyone - for example you - to believe in what you do not.


It always has forced.
And You've obviously never studied European or American history.
Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
The first u.s. settlers came for the very reason being that they were forced to practice religion in a certain way.
The religious persecution that drove settlers from Europe to the British North American colonies sprang from the conviction, held by Protestants and Catholics alike, that uniformity of religion must exist in any given society.
 
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Lavalamp

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Unhinged, complete and utter nonsense divorced from reality.
None of that is occuring, no one on this forum ever implied anything remotely like that.
A boycott of any company is in fact the most peaceful way to exercise ones freedom and effect change.
(Remember coca cola and apartheid?)
No company has the right to anyone's money.
A boycott is niether bigotry or evil.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth, It's nonsense isn't happening you say! Then you say well ok but it's ok remember apartheid? Even as you advocate for and make excuses for apartheid right here in America, apartheid based on political party, and separatism based on party ideology.
There is nothing tolerant nor Classically Liberal about your hatred of people who disagree with you on how to best serve the interests of the country and our society. Or your desire to punish them economically, socially, marginalize and hurt them in any way you can until they bow before your political views. This is the cancer in the Democrat Party, and here you have only made excuses for it and advocated for it - even as you in the same breath claimed it isn't happening.
It really is Orwellian - and certainly it is in practice fascist. It is the furthesst thing from the consent of the governed. It is rule by intimidation and force, and everything you claim to be against.

- LL
 
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Lavalamp

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UM, that didn't happen.
You are insane.

That is what you are doing when you intolerantly advocate for boycotting people simply for saying something complimentary about the President. Separatism and apartheid over political party, worse in fact you advocated for hurting him and all his employees economically and socially.
The man's hispanic, he has thousands of employees whose livelihoods you want to end, over a kind word you equated him with South African apartheid. You are more guilty of apartheid than he, he was being a compassionate being - you are not.

- LL
 

moss elk

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completely-fng-cuckoo.jpg

Likely to transport fatalities.
Without Merit.
 
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moss elk

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Let's end this with a song, eh?
It is the only time I can tolerate his voice.

 
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