Date and Time I Ching ..?!

[ivss]

Hi!

I am a new member here, and I just found out about the I Ching from TV when I was watching the History Channel and became very interested in I Ching. I searched online, and found different methods. Besides the 3 coins methods I liked the Calendric method. The only problem is, none of the websites I visited actually explain how to do it. The only thing I got from it is this (for ex): 13th April 2008 10:10pm (or 20:10 in the 24hr clock?)

Now I have no idea how to make a number out of it ! what do I do?? how do I calculate? And do I use a 24hour clock or 12hour clock for this?

I'd really appreciate a nice answer explaining how to do this, because I am a total amateur...

Thanks!!!

 

[kittikatt]

I Watcched The Same Show And I Need Help With The Coins Can You Hep Me?

Kittikatt

 

[ivss]

I Watcched The Same Show And I Need Help With The Coins Can You Hep Me?

Really? today on Hist. Channel in the afternoon?
I'm not sure yet about the coins, right now I want to find out how to do the Calendric Divination

 

[fkegan]

Yi oracles cast with coins, or hexagrams associated with calendars...

I Watcched The Same Show And I Need Help With The Coins Can You Hep Me?

Kittikatt

The coin method (and the yarrow stalks) are described in Wilhelm (in the appendix at the end). If you are winging it on your own, you need three coins of the same kind (three pennies is standard) you give one side (say heads) a value of Yang 3 and the other Yin2. Put the three coins in you palm, shake them up, throw them on a flat surface. Count up the results the three coins will add to 6,7, 8, or 9. Six is moving Yin, 7 stable Yang, 8 stable Yin, and 9 moving Yang. The lines are filled in from the Bottom, first toss is first line, second on top of it. That is how you cast the Yi Oracle with coins. Interpretation is its own universe. Most folks start with the Wilhelm I Ching for a few years at least.

As to Calendar casting, I have no idea. There are connections of the Chinese lunar months to some hexagrams. You can also take the exact time to hundred thousandths of a second and use that large number broken into two pieces to generate two numbers between 0 and 63, add one to each and have an oracle.

Terence McKenna worked out an association between I Ching hexagram sequence and various calendars which gave him a calendar date for the end of the world on Dec. 22, 2012. I don't remember his work at the moment, but while he was still alive (his world ended 4/3/2000 in the prior millennium) I emailed him and his calendar work was based upon approximating the I Ching lines to a Mayan calendar sort of with modern calendar/celestial mechanics and creating a computer analysis based in purely modern notions that generated a Mayan-I Ching calendar Timewave. It didn't generate hexagrams for oracles, just associated hexagrams to calendar dates.

I only remember his thinking was faulty IMHO and in the email exchange he agreed he was using his view of the hexagrams and line to come up with 4*13 to get to 52 weeks in a year and then finding years to fit his expectations of current calendar years together with ancient Mayan calendar and Chinese Yi hexagrams. But research McKenna and Time wave and I think you will find what there is of his calendar I Ching.

Frank

 

[meng]

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[getojack]

Hi!

I am a new member here, and I just found out about the I Ching from TV when I was watching the History Channel and became very interested in I Ching. I searched online, and found different methods. Besides the 3 coins methods I liked the Calendric method. The only problem is, none of the websites I visited actually explain how to do it. The only thing I got from it is this (for ex): 13th April 2008 10:10pm (or 20:10 in the 24hr clock?)

Now I have no idea how to make a number out of it ! what do I do?? how do I calculate? And do I use a 24hour clock or 12hour clock for this?

I think Jesed, who hangs around here sometimes, uses a calendar method, but i've never really understood how he does it... i think with his method, you still have to cast a hexagram, but the time when you cast it tells you the length of time the hexagram is "in effect", so to speak... something to do with the later heaven sequence of trigrams, iirc.

also, there's something else called the "plum blossom" method in which you don't have to use coins or yarrow at all, which is probably what the tv program was referring to. there's a short article explaining some plum blossom numerology methods here at http://www.chiofearth.com/article5a.htm

 

[Sparhawk]

What Jesed uses is different and is post-fact. Very interesting technique, indeed.

Now, Getojack had the correct idea about pointing to the Plum Blossom method, which is very simple, once you do it a couple of times by hand. In it, numbers from 1 to 8 are assigned to each trigram, thusly (for visualization purposes, leftmost number is bottom of trigram):

111 = 1
010 = 2
001 = 3
100 = 4
011 = 5
101 = 6
000 = 7
110 = 8

​

1st, you take a date and time (i.e. 'now' April 14, 2008 11:30 [-5]) and add the numbers of the date:

4 + 14 + 2008 = 2026

2nd, you divide this number by 8 and note the remainder:

2026 / 8 = 253, remainder 2
This remainder gives us the UPPER TRIGRAM, in this case Kan

​

3rd, to that number (2026) you add the time, in whole numbers for both hours and minutes:

2026 + 11 + 30 = 2067

​

4th, this number (2067) you divide by 8 again and note the remainder:

2067 / 8 = 258, remainder 6
This remainder gives us the LOWER TRIGRAM, in this case LI

​

Thus, the obtained hexagram is 63

5th, To obtain a moving line, you divide the last number (2067) by 6 and note the remainder:

2067 / 6 = 344, remainder 3
This remainder gives us a changing line in the THIRD PLACE.

​

Thus, the obtained hexagram for April 14, 2008, 11:30AM (in my place) is 63.3

 

[getojack]

What Jesed uses is different and is post-fact. Very interesting technique, indeed.

Now, Getojack had the correct idea about pointing to the Plum Blossom method, which is very simple, once you do it a couple of times by hand. In it, numbers from 1 to 8 are assigned to each trigram, thusly (for visualization purposes, leftmost number is bottom of trigram):

111 = 1
010 = 2
001 = 3
100 = 4
011 = 5
101 = 6
000 = 7
110 = 8

​

hey luis, that doesn't look any trigram sequence i've ever seen...
heaven, water, mountain, thunder, wind, fire, earth, lake?

shouldn't thunder be number 1 in the sequence, if it's the later heaven sequence?

 

[Sparhawk]

hey luis, that doesn't look any trigram sequence i've ever seen...
heaven, water, mountain, thunder, wind, fire, earth, lake?

shouldn't thunder be number 1 in the sequence, if it's the later heaven sequence?

No, the rules of Plum Blossom follow the King Wen sequence of Trigrams as pictured in the Later Heaven Bagua. If you start with Heaven and continue clockwise you'll see the whole sequence.

 

[getojack]

yes, i understand that it's the later heaven bagua sequence, but the sequence starts with thunder in the east.

 

[Sparhawk]

yes, i understand that it's the later heaven bagua sequence, but the sequence starts with thunder in the east.

Yes, I understand what the Shuo Gua calls for, however, for this particular purpose, Shao Yong decided to start the sequence with Heaven and follow from there...

 

[getojack]

Yes, I understand what the Shuo Gua calls for, however, for this particular purpose, Shao Yong decided to start the sequence with Heaven and follow from there...

hmm...

 

[ivss]

[/INDENT]1st, you take a date and time (i.e. 'now' April 14, 2008 11:30 [-5]) and add the numbers of the date:

4 + 14 + 2008 = 2026

2nd, you divide this number by 8 and note the remainder:

2026 / 8 = 253, remainder 2
This remainder gives us the UPPER TRIGRAM, in this case Kan

​

3rd, to that number (2026) you add the time, in whole numbers for both hours and minutes:

2026 + 11 + 30 = 2067

​

4th, this number (2067) you divide by 8 again and note the remainder:

2067 / 8 = 258, remainder 6
This remainder gives us the LOWER TRIGRAM, in this case LI

​

Thus, the obtained hexagram is 63

5th, To obtain a moving line, you divide the last number (2067) by 6 and note the remainder:

2067 / 6 = 344, remainder 3
This remainder gives us a changing line in the THIRD PLACE.

​

Thus, the obtained hexagram for April 14, 2008, 11:30AM (in my place) is 63.3

Thank you so much for this explanation, and I have to tell you that it's the best Calendric explanation I've read and I actually think that I can do it now. The link that was posted for the Plum Blossom I Ching explained it, but I still haven't understood it. You explained it very well! Thank you so much

 

[ivss]

One more question.. I found a picture of trigams.. how do I know which one is #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ??

 

[Sparhawk]

You are welcome. Perhaps you missed part of my reply. I used binary to depict the trigrams... 1 are Yang and 0 are Yin. Leftmost digit is bottom line. Thus, 111 is Qian, 011 is Xun, 010 is Kan, etc...

 

[ivss]

You are welcome. Perhaps you missed part of my reply. I used binary to depict the trigrams... 1 are Yang and 0 are Yin. Leftmost digit is bottom line. Thus, 111 is Qian, 011 is Xun, 010 is Kan, etc...

I still dont get it much with the binary. But the order goes from 1-8 as:
Qian, Xun, Kan, Dui, Li, Gen, Kun, Zhen

i hope this is correct

 

[Sparhawk]

111 is Qian
011 is Xun
010 is Kan
001 is Gen
000 is Kun
100 is Zhen
101 is Li
110 is Dui

 

[ivss]

111 is Qian
011 is Xun
010 is Kan
001 is Gen
000 is Kun
100 is Zhen
101 is Li
110 is Dui

So the order from 1 to 8 is: Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Xun, Li, Kun, and Dui

And let's say I just have the date without the time. How do I get the lower trigam since i have no number to add the time to?

 

[Sparhawk]

Well, you either need a time machine to go back to the 11th century and ask good Shao Yong about it, or approximate a time... I would love to have the first option but I'm afraid I'll have to settle for the latter...

 

[ivss]

Well, you either need a time machine to go back to the 11th century and ask good Shao Yong about it, or approximate a time... I would love to have the first option but I'm afraid I'll have to settle for the latter...

Oh okay, cause I've seen examples online that did not include the hour and minute of the day
And I am trying to do this I Ching right now with an example already worked out to the final number, but I am not getting it, and I don't know why

Example: Atomic Bomb over Hiroshima = August 6th 1945 at 8:15

6+8+1945 = 1959
1959/8 = 244 remainder 8

So the upper trigam is Dui (Lake)

1959+8+15 = 1982
1982/8 = 247 remainder 7

So the lower trigam is Kun (Earth)

1982/6 = 330 remainder 3

And by looking at the 64 trigams the one that matches is #45 (Gathering Together) but the website that gave me just the date and time said it is #36 (Darkening)..

What am I doing wrong???

 

[Sparhawk]

You've got the remainders wrong... That's why I say it is a good idea to do the calculations by hand...

Example: Atomic Bomb over Hiroshima = August 6th 1945 at 8:15

6+8+1945 = 1959
1959/8 = 244 remainder 8

Correct remainder is 7 and thus the upper trigram is Kun

1959+8+15 = 1982
1982/8 = 247 remainder 7

Correct remainder is 6 and thus the lower trigram is Li.

That indeed gives you 36...

 

[fkegan]

This calendar technique gives the same upper trigram for all oracles on a day.
Your calculation from 1959/8 is a bit of a problem, remainder 8 would be an even multiple. 244 * 8= 1952 , 245 * 8= 1960, 1959 would then be remainder 7 which is Kun, three yin lines and the upper trigram of hex 36.

247*8= 1976 248*8=1984 So 1982 is 2 less or remainder 6 which is Li Fire and overall you get hex 36.

Frank

 

[ivss]

You've got the remainders wrong... That's why I say it is a good idea to do the calculations by hand...



Correct remainder is 7 and thus the upper trigram is Kun



Correct remainder is 6 and thus the lower trigram is Li.

That indeed gives you 36...

I used a calculator, shouldn't that be correct too? I am trying by hand, but I am still getting a different remainder. Or can I always subtract 1 from the remainders cause that seems like a problem here, that I always get 1 higher than the one it's supposed to be.

And on this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigram the Trigrams are in a different order.. I am so confused now

 

[Sparhawk]

I used a calculator, shouldn't that be correct too? I am trying by hand, but I am still getting a different remainder.

I'm sure a Scientific/Engineering calculator can give you a remainder. You have one of those? Are you taking the first number after the decimal period as your remainder? I'm starting to question your math abilities...

And on this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigram the Trigrams are in a different order.. I am so confused now.

As I told our friend, Getojack, never mind other sequences. This sequence is based on the King Wen Later Heaven Bagua and starts counting with Qian and goes clockwise from there. Why Shao Yong decided this was the correct way to do it is a matter of further discussion and investigation.

 

[ivss]

I'm sure a Scientific/Engineering calculator can give you a remainder. You have one of those? Are you taking the first number after the decimal period as your remainder? I'm starting to question your math abilities...

Actually, I was using the calculator in my cellphone cause I don't have my TI-83 cause my friend has it. So maybe that's why it's giving me weird remainders haha. And yes, I am taking the first number after the decimal point. And don't worry, I get A's in math

How do you differentiate AM/PM? Do you use the 24 hour clock?

As I told our friend, Getojack, never mind other sequences. This sequence is based on the King Wen Later Heaven Bagua and starts counting with Qian and goes clockwise from there. Why Shao Yong decided this was the correct way to do it is a matter of further discussion and investigation.

Okay, so my last list from before is correct: The order from 1 to 8 is: Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Xun, Li, Kun, and Dui

 

[Sparhawk]

How do you differentiate AM/PM? Do you use the 24 hour clock?

As far as I know, it goes in 12 hour cycles. So you start counting from 1 after midnight or noon.

 

[ivss]

As far as I know, it goes in 12 hour cycles. So you start counting from 1 after midnight or noon.

Ohh okay, thanks

And I just found a Scientific Calculator (TI-30Xa) and when I do 1959/8 I get = 244.875 so how the heck am I not getting a remainder of 7??? I am using an actual calculator now ... grrrrrrr

 

[Sparhawk]

Please excuse my South American way of writing my divisions but it is the way I learned them in 4th grade...

 

[ivss]

Please excuse my South American way of writing my divisions but it is the way I learned them in 4th grade...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Okay I got it now thank you so much

And one last Calendric Divination question (for now ). When you divide it by 6 (which will give you the changing line) what does that exactly mean? or what do you do with this changing line?

 

[fkegan]

Ohh okay, thanks

And I just found a Scientific Calculator (TI-30Xa) and when I do 1959/8 I get = 244.875 so how the heck am I not getting a remainder of 7??? I am using an actual calculator now ... grrrrrrr

The technique you are using is based in older metaphysical work, back in the day when calculators and computers were job titles not machines. A mod division function is needed to give a simple integer answer without having to figure out anything. Any time you divide by 8 and get a remainder of 8 you know you are in trouble.
You have to have been very good in upper level math to miss that a remainder like that belongs in the quotient. I remember being stumped for weeks by a casual reference to a totally simple problem: you have a one gallon bucket and a two gallon, get one gallon in each. Turns out you virtually can not get anything but that result with any two actions. It was part of a grad student's comments to a group of us preteens on how if you work on complex puzzles and then someone asks you to solve a totally simple one it is impossible to solve.

The whole technique is a bit suspect. It is a variant of cabalistic arithmetic, only instead of continuing to add digits until only one remains, there is division by 8 to get one of 8 trigrams. It is a pre-computer technique jury rigged to get a A.Crowley type oracle.

Frank