did she really love me ....hex 19

[robibiro]

hi dear all
i did this question abt a very complicated relationship that has given both pain and growth.
at the end of the story...i found out i loved her more than i thought. but about her...i dont know.
i asked iching and got 19 with no moving line...doesnt sound like she really loved me...or maybe she was starting to but ....at the 8 month disgrace!
what do u think?

 

[Trojina]

hi dear all
i did this question abt a very complicated relationship that has given both pain and growth.
at the end of the story...i found out i loved her more than i thought. but about her...i dont know.
i asked iching and got 19 with no moving line...doesnt sound like she really loved me...or maybe she was starting to but ....at the 8 month disgrace!
what do u think?

Its my opinion you cannot possibly know the answer to this question through the Yi. Can anyone really tell you what she felt in her heart and if it was real love ? Wouldn't that be rather unfair on her...for us to assume to speak for her about her inmost feelings It is much clearer to ask from your own perspective.





How could you get an answer to this question via asking about yourself ? What is the real question you need to know ? Previously you asked "would she have been faithful to me"here http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=9496 and others suggested different questions, that would be easier to interpret. In that question seemed to me the basic question behind that for you was "did i make the right decision ?". Here again seems to me you are looking back and wondering if you made the right decision about her, i think you ended it with her didn't you ? Maybe you could ask Yi about your decision ...something as simple as 'was that the best decision for me' or 'what do i need to know about the decision i made'.

 

[robibiro]

trojan. sorry but i dont get ur point.

 

[nicky_p]

Having asked many questions about love myself i have found that the yi doesn't seem to have much regard for it. Even hex 37 the family talks about economics rather than love binding them together. It could be for a couple of reasons - 1 of which is that there seems to be no room for love in the mores.

That being said, hex 19 is about teaching. If it were to be personified I would see it as a teacher. Lise's website has it as the caring eye. You could see this in 2 ways - that yes, she cared. She was inexhausable in her efforts to teach. Or, it could be thi yi throwing this question back at you - asking you what you're going to learn from this experience?

 

[robibiro]

i would never discourage anybody making any question to iching, unless i would feel that the question has an immoral aim. For example if somebody would ask 'how can i make him die' i would feel the right to judge unproper, the intention itself, and the use of the iching. But i dont see anything immoral in my question. Since you dont know the background and the situation that brought me to ask the iching this question, why do you judge it unproper? and anyway, doesnt the fact that i m still in love with her authorize me to wonder such a question?isnt inproper to judge something without a good basis? to me it sounds like a prejudice rather than judgement

 

[robibiro]

hi nicky,
thanks for sharing. in my point of view how can iching not care much about such a huge issue like love?
in the chinese culture the highest concept of love is the love between husband and wife, thus that kind of love that builds a family. from this point of view, love is not just an abstract feeling, but to have the proper fullfilment should aim to build a family, and in a family, a material things like money matters, in the sense that each member of the family should provide the proper contribution and share of responsibility for the wellness of everybody.

 

[Trojina]

i would never discourage anybody making any question to iching, unless i would feel that the question has an immoral aim. For example if somebody would ask 'how can i make him die' i would feel the right to judge unproper, the intention itself, and the use of the iching. But i dont see anything immoral in my question. Since you dont know the background and the situation that brought me to ask the iching this question, why do you judge it unproper? and anyway, doesnt the fact that i m still in love with her authorize me to wonder such a question?isnt inproper to judge something without a good basis? to me it sounds like a prejudice rather than judgement

Eh ? Hang on a minute in no way was I meaning you asked an 'improper' question, i was genuinely trying to help. I was saying its very hard to tell from an I Ching answer if someone 'really loves' you. It would be presumptuous on my part i think if i said to you 'oh yes this girl really loves you' when I cannot speak for the heart of that girl, nor quite honestly can i know what is truly in her heart from the hexagram you received. This is not to say Yi can tell us nothing of relationships or feelings, of course it can.... but such a question as 'did she really love me'...well surely you can see how noone but her is really in a position to answer that...not because its improper but because we don't actually know and can't speak on her behalf


To be honest when I genuinely try to help and am called judgemental i really wonder why i even bothered so I will leave you to get on with it.

I don't think you understood my answer at all. Please re read it, i did not say or imply your question was immoral ! Can you please tell me where precisely you think i said that ? Please point out to me exactly where i said it is 'improper' for you to ask this question ?! It is as i said only a question very hard to understand the answer to, whereas if you ask from your own perspective it will be much easier to understand the answer.

Anyway I give up....ask what you like, i really don't mind or have a problem with anything you ask...i don't care what you ask, i was just trying to say there are probably better ways to structure your question in order to know what you need to know


Do you think that if someone here says "yes hex 19 means she really did love you" that that is the absolute truth ? Do you want someone to say 'yes she loves you' or 'no she doesn't love you' ? I mean do you think someone here actually knows that ?


If you did the Hilarys course here on the basics of consulting the I Ching you would see there there are suggestions about useful ways to construct questions. Nothing to do with morality just for practicality.

anyway i give up..go and figure it out for yourself


i presume you don't understand my english because English is not your first language...but thats not my problem. Just because you don't understand my english doesn't mean you can call me judgmental for no reason......maybe you should just read more carefully

 

[robibiro]

hi trojan
i got the feeling you were judging improper that question because you wrote
"Wouldn't that be rather unfair on her...."
if i misunderstood your meaning i beg your pardon.

 

[robibiro]

anyway since you were right (i ended this story and i have much pain for it) probably i m very sensitive to this matter and overreacted. again if i misunderstood u i beg ur pardon.

 

[jesed]

Hi Trojan

Hang on a minute in no way was I meaning you asked an 'improper' question

i did not say or imply your question was immoral ! Can you please tell me where precisely you think i said that ?

Nothing to do with morality just for practicality.

I know you try to help in good faith
I Know you give advice for good experience
I agree with you: there is more useful ways to ask the Yijing

But, I also see robibiro's point: you wasn't talking only about practicality, but judging about morality (fairness/unfairness):

I Wouldn't that be rather unfair on her...

Best wishes

 

[Trojina]

hi trojan
i got the feeling you were judging improper that question because you wrote
"Wouldn't that be rather unfair on her...."
if i misunderstood your meaning i beg your pardon.

oh okay, i see. What i meant was, I, as someone trying to interpret, would feel presumptuous and unfair to her if i told you she had or didn't have certain feelings. What right do i have to say what she feels. Sometimes i do anyway, it was just in this case, asking if she really loves you...well love is a hard thing to define isn't it even for ourselves ,let alone know if someone else truly feels it.

But yes i didn't mean you were being unfair or improper at all, I meant it would be unfair of me to presume to know whether she loved you or not. Supposing i said 'she does not love you' that would be very unfair of me if she did !


I hope thats cleared up now...sorry for my earlier rant, i was feeling a tad misjudged as really i was only trying to help

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojan





I know you try to help in good faith
I Know you give advice for good experience
I agree with you: there is more useful ways to ask the Yijing

But, I also see robibiro's point: you wasn't talking only about practicality, but judging about morality (fairness/unfairness):




Best wishes

Yes but as I explained above it was not Robibiros question i was saying was unfair...only that as an interpreter it would seem unfair to the girl to judge on her behalf whether she loved him or not. love is a complex thing is it not.

anyway i think we have cleared up our misunderstanding now hopefully

 

[Trojina]

anyway since you were right (i ended this story and i have much pain for it) probably i m very sensitive to this matter and overreacted. again if i misunderstood u i beg ur pardon.

that makes two of us then begging each others pardon

:bows:

and hopefully others will still come in to tell you what they think the 19 might mean here...i didn't really want to wreck the thread....honest

 

[meng]

I'll venture an interpretation, that her love for you is protective, somewhat maternal, and very conditional.

 

[jesed]

Oh.. thanks Trojan..I understand better now.
Best wishes

 

[nicky_p]

hi nicky,
thanks for sharing. in my point of view how can iching not care much about such a huge issue like love?
in the chinese culture the highest concept of love is the love between husband and wife, thus that kind of love that builds a family. from this point of view, love is not just an abstract feeling, but to have the proper fullfilment should aim to build a family, and in a family, a material things like money matters, in the sense that each member of the family should provide the proper contribution and share of responsibility for the wellness of everybody.

I think that 'love' is intrinsic in the very nature of the yi but I also think that this is a different thing than the wild, romantic, can't live without you kind of feeling that I get the impression you're asking about. For me this love is agape - the compassion for all sentient beings. I also think that the eastern concept is a lot more formal and structured than the western. This eastern concept stikes me as deep respect which also looks at things on a practical level as you suggest. But this is how questions of love get complicated. It's like trying to describe the different shades of 1 colour

 

[meng]

I'll venture an interpretation, that her love for you is protective, somewhat maternal, and very conditional.

Want to add a note about the seeming contradiction between maternal and conditional. Typically, at least in the Jungian sense, maternal love is unconditional. This is simulated from the way mother earth embraces or embodies her young daughter (dui), and reflects tolerance and protection. However, due to the time limit given, the mother's love is conditional. It's like a mother eagle who leaves the nest because her eaglet refused to fly.

 

[robibiro]

first about the little misunderstanding with trojan:
now i clearly understood that you were not being judgemental at all, and i overreacted for the reason i explained before. in a more quiet state of mind i would have asked u to explain before jumping to the wrong conclusion. anyway thanks for sharing ur view abt my reading.
meng, what you wrote is very interesting, can i ask you why you pointed at maternal and conditional?
in the hex 19 i read about increasing energy that brings two beings to attract each other, but is that kind of tendency that, by itself, cannot be sufficient, in the sense that the situation should evolve otherwise that energy cant keep the balance. is this why you relate it to 'conditional'? and if yes...then why you also see maternal?
thanks for sharing!

 

[gato]

hi nicky,
tin my point of view how can iching not care much about such a huge issue like love?
in the chinese culture the highest concept of love is the love between husband and wife, thus that kind of love that builds a family. from this point of view, love is not just an abstract feeling, but to have the proper fullfilment should aim to build a family, and in a family, a material things like money matters, in the sense that each member of the family should provide the proper contribution and share of responsibility for the wellness of everybody.

also:
"To the Chinese, mutual love between man and woman is the will of Heaven and Earth. Mutual love should not be actuated by selfish motives, otherwise the union will not be successful and long lasting."

And for me, 19 in this context means " you will see for yourself soon enough"

 

[robibiro]

gato where did you quote it from?

 

[gato]

Alfred Huang , but i'm not sure on which hex is the above quote since i've randomly opened the book.