difference between honesty and modesty

[alev]

I am having a hard time with this reading and the answer is actually quite important to me...
Basically, Someone told me something. I ask the I ching if they were telling the truth.
i received hex 15.2-->46
the very second I did the reading I thought it was absolute confirmation that they had to me the whole truth and nothing but the truth
but then I got to thinking about the meaning of modesty and realized the answer could also imply that this person was just giving me a very very modest (restrained) statement, which in fact in this situation not telling the truth would in fact be the humble thing to have done here.

I can't make up my mind. Would love to hear which of the two possibilities people think is the most likely response intended by the I ching :bows:

 

[patro]

15-> 46
regarding your question.... the answer isn't so difficult to understand... but since we are biased about our situations... every answer is pain

well.. the second line.. is not only a confirmation about the person saw you the truth.... but is also saying you that the small statement was done in a way to let think you about the words... so that you can - step by step - grow... the more you think about the more you see hidden words...... so the more you understand the more you grow.

indeed the words contain an universe of statements.

hope to help.

 

[rodaki]

hi alev

this is gonna sound a bit paradoxical but I had this reading for someone who made their presence felt by deciding to conceal themselves . . it was like, 'you can hide but you cannot beat the obvious' sorta thing . . maybe this is about two cases of truth: one concerning the content of your friend's words, the other the truth of your friend's quality . . it's my impression that your answer talks about the second kind here . .

 

[gene]

I don't have my books in front of me, and can't give you a definitive answer, but one thing comes to mind in hexagram 46. I believe there is the statement there, one must see the great man. Is this correct? If so, there might be someone you can go to or some situation that would come up that would give you a sort of confirmation. Anything you can think of that might give you this confirmation? Hexagram 15 is also about working together as a unit. That would fit in well too with the possibility of having some way to verify the truth.

Gene

 

[alev]

Patro, I agree with you at first I thought the answer was obvious too BUT actually what Rodaki described fits the person as well which is why I am doubting that they were telling the truth. In fact, Rodaki, what you wrote shocked me completely becaue I really resonated with what you said "you can hide but you can't beat the obvious..." This person is notorious for acting this way, they are actually extremely modest so it makes sense on that level
without disclosing too much about what I was told, I feel this person lied to me to hide the truth but other things I have noticed (that this person may realize I am aware of) contradicts the information given me. I consulted the I ching to see if maybe I was actually wrong in my assumptions and this person is telling the truth. However, something just didn't sit right based on other unsaid things like I said.
I noticed too what you said Gene, I guess I thought in my mind it meant consulting the I Ching. There isn't a "great man" involved in the situation that I can think of.
Ultimately, the verdict could end the friendship with this person that is why I am not too eager to make such a quick decision. I need to really think this one through and through.

one translation says "modesty that comes to expression" and this makes me think modesty (reserved speech) comes to expression, carefully choosing one's words to express oneself with revealing oneself
BUT the translator's comments say out this line "out of the heart, the mouth speaketh" which would imply truth fully being spoken, at least that is how I am reading it. And it seems to contradict the meaning of modesty in the line.

 

[alev]

also another thought I had was that there are several other lines in the I ching that speak of "possesing truth" which the i ching could have given me if what was told me was truth as plain as day. 61.5 comes to mind as does 64.5 and 14.5. Had I recieved either of those lines, there wouldn't be any doubt in my mind...

 

[rodaki]

hello again . .

glad my post resonated Alev, but what I don't understand is why would you be upset if you recognize that it could be out of modesty that your friend didn't tell you the whole truth . .
Obviously I don't know the whole story but I think that with 15.2 you can't escape one's own truth . . maybe they have their reasons for keeping some things to themselves? Another way to see 15 besides 'modesty' is 'authenticity' (this is how Bradford translates it, if my memory doesn't fail me) . .
and, are you sure you want to decide on your friendship based on a reading form IC? .. surely there must be a better way

. . just saying . .

 

[alev]

Hi rodaki,
you are right, I guess I was so upset about being lied to. No one likes that feeling. However, I do now believe the reading is showing that this person is probably hiding some things but not in a bad way. I will talk to them again and try to figure things out.
I should clarify that I meant that the content of the what I was told is the reason why I felt the friendship couldn't continue...not because of the reading. Although, since I feel there may be more than meets the eye with this case, I will try to work things out
Thank you for all your help here!

 

[anemos]

Alev, just curious. Why modesty contradicts honesty in this line ? IMHO , here , the modest person don't feels like saying much but that doesn't mean they hide something, just don't brags. I trust hearts words and this is how I would read this line.

And wonders what they try to built, (46)if the reading is about them and not you ?

hex 46 :
Within the earth, wood grows:
The image of PUSHING UPWARD.
Thus the superior man of devoted character
Heaps up small things
In order to achieve something high and great.

Gene mentioned the "great man". that could be something outside you or a side of you. Most of the times there was not a "great man" around me, I had to look at myself and I hear this advice as a call to move a futher upper and see the whole situation from another point of view.

 

[anemos]

Truman Show has stucked in my mind for many many days rolleyes: ) But this reading, reminds me a lot the last scene of the movie, where Truman leaves the settings and is about to cross the door and become a True- Man. I can see line 15.2 and hex 46 aswell.

 

[rodaki]

Hi rodaki,
you are right, I guess I was so upset about being lied to. No one likes that feeling. However, I do now believe the reading is showing that this person is probably hiding some things but not in a bad way. I will talk to them again and try to figure things out.
I should clarify that I meant that the content of the what I was told is the reason why I felt the friendship couldn't continue...not because of the reading. Although, since I feel there may be more than meets the eye with this case, I will try to work things out
Thank you for all your help here!

sorry if I misunderstood , I thought you saw the reading as a decisive one (something about a 'verdict'?)
anyways, you're most welcome, thank you for the feedback

 

[bradford]

Modesty is an unfortunate translation of Qian if you are trying to use a word that captures its overall meaning. In several places in the text it should be translated as "modesty" because the authors are pointing out problems with ordinary comprehension of modesty as falseness humility and self-effacement. It's used as a device here. Modestly croweth the cock. But the real meaning of Qian is just being real, neither too much nor too little, or maybe erring just a tiny bit on the conservative or safe side.

 

[icegrapefruit]

Alev, I share Bradford's understanding of what kind of modesty this hexagram is telling about. It is not one trying to hide, it is one has enough self-confidence that it doesn't need to show off. Line 2 to me sounds to be about a person/behaviour very clear and honest, and tries to connect that clear way instead if trying to be dishonest for the sake of connection. But you write your friend does tend to try to hide and cover the truth to make it sound nicer, so I wonder if you got this line as an advice to your own self: this is the way you have to turn to your friend to be able to work things out. If so, hexagram 46 can be the bigger picture, you want to work things out, fine, you are on the right path, don't force anything, do what little you can do.

 

[alev]

Thank you for all the information on this! as it turns out, in talking to my friend they admitted that they downplayed things out of humility, so it definately seems in line with the I ching's answer!