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Do 'moving lines' move?

Lilly-La

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For many years i did believe what most IC users believe: that moving lines move. But often it did make really no sense and i was confused. To me the first Hex. often made great sense but not the second especially when more than 1 line moved. I noticed i had to bend my interpretations a lot to make everything fit.

I was happy once i discovered this bit from H. Mesker´s website:
Many users have the habit of immediately changing the moving lines in the received hexagram to generate a second hexagram. Apart from the fact that moving lines were probably a later invention and not used in the early days of Yijing practice (Rutt, p. 154-155; Nielsen, p. 22)...
http://www.itcn.nl/serendipity/archives/126-The-Ten-Laws-of-Proper-Yijing-Practice-Explained.html

Moving lines are the greatet fun but adds to the greatest confusion too. Here is one i consider making no sense:
Hex 53.6 (Development /Gradual Progress) -> 39 (Obstruction)

Hex. 53.6:
The wild goose gradually draws near the clouds heights.
Its feathers can be used for the sacred dance.
Good fortune. (Wilhelm)

You can find many more making no sense but although many making sense. As the IC is centered around basic human feelings and affairs (family, love, loneliness, friendship, conflict, solving conflicts...) it is often fairly easy to make an interpretation a la conflicts in family lead to war and are solved by love but might not solved now, so wait , you are before completion or already ahead of completion but maybe it is best to clean the well first...

Here is another one:
64.9 -> 40 (Deliverance) - someone gets drunk and that leads to deliverance ;)

Don´t want to convince anybody just noticed for myself i am better off to stick to the first hex and the lines. They tell everything you need to know..and even a bit more.

Anybody else sharing my thoughts?
 
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Trojina

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:confused: so your whole theory is based on the false idea that the 2nd hexgaram is the future and the future alone ?

If you think that way it rarely does make sense but.....the 2nd hexgaram is also the backdrop, the stance of the querant, where the question is coming from not where its going to. Its pretty fluid and can include aspects of where its going to...but I think overall your reason for dropping the 2nd hexagram is based on a misconception about the significance of the 2nd hexagram.

Hence in 53.6 the goose transcends the difficulties of 39 ...its not that the transcendence of difficulties leads to 39.

I thought you were going to come up with some complex theory about it....but I actually think you are just mistaken through a limited view of the second hexagram

64.6 >40 One is released from difficulties. That is the release in 64 is line 6 not that getting drunk leads to deliverance,

Sorry folks....repetition warning .....:blush: Lise said i think "the second hexagram is the sea the primary one swims in ^....its all encompassing of the primary one not just the future, not just the 'result'.

I think you lose huge significance by just dropping the second hexagram ....I don't think your reasoning supports your theory. Hmmm try using the 2nd hexagram a different way, see if it works ?
 
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miakoda

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Lilly,

Excluding resulting hexagrams from consideration narrows what you can learn from your reading.You don't have to look at them -- that's up to you. It's just one of many layers available that can enrich your understanding (including fan yaos, nuclear hexagrams, trigrams, transitional hexagrams for multiple changing lines and even more...).

I agree with what Trojan said about the second hexagram. It's not a 'result' or predictive but a characterization of your present situation. The first hexagram and its lines describe the way the change will be implemented. Try out the notion using your example of 53.6>39. It could be looked at as the difficulties of 39 are best dealt with through applying the gradual progress of 53 and specifically by meeting in the realm of the spirits described in the line, 53.6.

All the best,

Miakoda
 
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Lilly-La

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I thought you were going to come up with some complex theory about it...

trojan,
the opposite is true. There are so many complex theories like opposite Hex., complement Hex... circles within circles 50 machtes 1, 49 matches 2.. or Early Heaven and later Hex.. inner Hex´s, Trigrammes etc etc.. it is so easy to bend the IC in all kind of directions.

Lise said i think the second hexagram is the sea the primary one swims in

and Wilhelm writes make def. use of the inner Hex...

now we have the inner Hex, the primary Hex., the single Trigrammes, the lines and the second Hex.. how much does a human beeing need to get a simple question answered :confused:?

I am aware of the fact that IC 'experts' like complex theories.. i believe one does not need complex theories at all.

PS i am not frustrated :) no i am really happy with the IC..
 
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Trojina

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I'm not generally in favour of complexity...especially as I am very easily lost with numbers (though I have just discovered looking at line pathways can help one get a feel for a line) but Lily an answer with changing lines without a second hexagram, however you choose to see that second hexagram, is like...is like...well I'm lost for words...which is rare :rofl: I mean I see the second hexagram often as least as important as the primary

Its good you aren't frustrated but if you did start to consider the second hexagram I feel it would be like discovering ...discovering....well I'm sure you'd find it valuable in the end.

I must go and have a cup of tea I'm in a state of shock ....and I've lost the power of speech
 

Lilly-La

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Trojan,
this made my day :) thanks so much for your post above ...

I own the IC for almost 30 years and took the second Hex. in regard for most of the time. One day i simply dropped reading the second hex. and i discovered everything one needs to know is written there (I take the inner Trigrammes and lines in regard). Life is simple, it is soo simple, we overlook it.Think of my question regarding this guy with his ex and kids.. isn´t it simple?

We bend things cuz we have desires.

I am so thankful trojan, you made me post this! Thanks soo much!
 

bradford

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I disagree with the claim made by Rutt and Nielsen cited above. Moving lines involving a comprehension of a phase midway between Ben and Zhi Gua were a part of the Yijing's process from the very beginning and are fundamental to the concept of Change.
 

meng

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I don't think the sequential age and original procedure is as much concern to Lilly as what she has found to be satisfyingly functional.

I think if someone predetermines they would only throw three times, forming only a trigram, do away with hexagram, lines, and relating hexagram, with it's transitional possibilities, they could still receive intelligent, practical guidance from it, so long as their mind was cognoscente and receptive. If, on the other hand, the oracle must be used only according to the strictest and earliest tradition, or not at all, that seems like such a waste of perfectly useable insight.

Row your boat gently downstream. Merrily, merrily; life is but a dream. Now that's another great oracle, dreams. Or seeing your reflection in the water. Yi is a means, not an end in itself, unless you make it so.
 

Trojina

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Trojan,
this made my day :) thanks so much for your post above ...

I own the IC for almost 30 years and took the second Hex. in regard for most of the time. One day i simply dropped reading the second hex. and i discovered everything one needs to know is written there (I take the inner Trigrammes and lines in regard). Life is simple, it is soo simple, we overlook it.Think of my question regarding this guy with his ex and kids.. isn´t it simple?

We bend things cuz we have desires.

I am so thankful trojan, you made me post this! Thanks soo much!


There's a difference between not using the second hexagram because you personally don't find it useful and what you said here on Nyccics thread

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, i truely believe it is a false conception... but this is not the right place to discuss it. Perhaps it is better to start a discussion in another part of the forum? Sorry Nyccic - your thread.


I don't use trigrams much or I just don't think of them yet I don't think they are a 'false conception' it's just ..they don't naturally stand out much to me and I tend to overlook them. So yes I understand if your preferred way is to drop the second hexagram completely....but what I don't understand is how you came to think the second hexagram was a 'false conception' which I take as you think to use the second hexagram at all is mistaken. I did glance at your link to Harmens work but it didn't seem to me to give any meaningful reason...for changing lines not to change into another hexagram :confused:

I don't think the second hexagram complicates things I think its quite fundamental. I mean all those little lines wiggle to transform themselves into something else. For you they wiggle in vain for they will never transform...the poor little blighters :weep:


I'll look at the links again to see if I missed something but right now I can't understand why you see them as a wholly 'false conception'.

I understand why you don't use them, its a personal choice. I don't understand why you see them as false conceptions .
 

Trojina

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Harmen's only reason to drop them seems to be historical which i can't argue with...and the fact that people tend to skip the primary hexagram in favour of the second. He gives the example of 39.3>8 and a person then asking again becasue they got hex 8 then getting 37...and yet giving no attention at all to the answer of 39.3 ! He's right there it happens all the time yet that is not an adequate reason to disregard the second hexagram altogether as all thats needed is a bit more balance...a bit more focus on the 39.3.


I see no other convincing reason to drop the second hexagram.

If you like it better do it that way....but apart from preference I haven't yet seen any other adequate reason to suggest second hexagrams are a misconception ?
 

meng

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They wiggle... :D

That's really it!

If one chooses to discard the relating hexagram, that change line still vibrates.... or wiggles.. has relevance. If one wishes to focus on the flower rather than on the bee in the flower, they are as moved.

I've come to terms in the same way with what I've considered completely unnecessary throw away of change lines methods, used by some; but really, what matters is that the bee gets the nectar.
 

Trojina

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They wiggle... :D

I think they shudder well some shudder more than others. A moving yin tends to shudder breathlessly. A moving yang sort of swaggers

Trouble is if Lily's about they can shudder and swagger all they like but they will not reach that tenuous luminous phase where they transform into one another.....they just tremble and groan and oooh no climax :eek:
 

Lilly-La

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Sorry for being so absent.. i will come back to the topic but currently i have, as we say in Germany, so much 'around my ears' these days before christmas...
 

Lilly-La

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ups.. and now it is already autumn, a bit late return from my side :) never the less...

Bradford,

I disagree with the claim made by Rutt and Nielsen cited above. Moving lines involving a comprehension of a phase midway between Ben and Zhi Gua were a part of the Yijing's process from the very beginning and are fundamental to the concept of Change.

this implies the Yi could tell the future which i can not agree with. Throwing coins or whatsoever is sort of a meditating process and the Yi gives an image back where one can meditate on. The answer will always come from inside the questioners sub/conscious not from the Yi. This is simply a book.

It makes me sad to see how many people miss the point by eagerly looking at a line and the second hex. F. e. Hex. 43 is about making decisions. The deeper meaning of decision is calling, proclaiming an order or orders etc.. you can make anxious/weak/lonesome decisions etc.. it is about rationality/sanity.. staying firm with the decision you make... books could be written on the topic (actually they are). When 43/6 is changing you end up with Hex 1. That makes any sense to people? To me people are guided to the completely wrong direction by emphasizing this changing line concept. The Yi can not predict the future!

It puzzles me deeply that questioning this concept is not discussed (at all?) and is almost considered like harming a sacrilege.
 

russell

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Try this: The Yi does not tell the future, it tells the now. The transformed hexagram is like a weather vane, it shows you the direction that change is pointing; this is not the same as the future itself.

Hexagram 43 paints an active, tension-filled image, and line 6 emphasizes the "emergency." But it may not be all bad; hexagram 1 reinforces the idea that this is a time of action and creativity, not giving up.

—Russell
 

Lilly-La

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Fully agree on the 'now'. Nice yu mention it here :).

Try this: The Yi does not tell the future, it tells the now. The transformed hexagram is like a weather vane, it shows you the direction that change is pointing; this is not the same as the future itself.
—Russell

Disagree on the 'weather vane' .. sometimes a changing line points to a well corresponding Hex. but this is not surprising as there are more than 1000 options. Each image presents a generic situation and 6 variations with judgement. They usually don´t lead anywhere if you do not bend the image and your situation. Ahead of that, why should it lead to another hex at all?
If you ask: what shall i do to get XY? You get f. e. 43/6 which might mean: work with self-discipline on it. If you do not, misfortune. Why should it lead to another Hex. at all???

Go through the images and lines and the second hex and i am sure you will notice that many 2. hex do not make any sense. Much more sense is in pairing hex like 43/44 and their inner Hex, in this case 33/34 (i think it was).

To me 43/6 leads back to 44 (image on passion (not love) and controll (fish in a tank)).
 

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