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do you belive in DESTINY?

newlife

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If so please give your definition of it.

I personally do believe in destiny. I believe that who we marry and who we seperate from is predestined, However I am not sure if my choice to get take out pasta for dinner or my decision to exercise and extra 30 minutes is. But then again it is either one or the other right?

Recently viewed an article that is facinating:

This principle focuses on what it means when we make a "choice" or "decision." Do we have freedom, and if so, what kind is it?

I believe that we do have "freedom," but it is a special kind. In a very subtle paradox, our "freedom" comes from the reality that on a deeper level we and everything else are completely determined.

Imagine for a moment that everything in this universe is determined, down to the last detail. The main reason for this is that in order for the universe to not be determined there would have to be "random" events now and then.

My problem is that I can't imagine how a truly random event could occur. It seems to me that what we call "random" is simply a way of saying that we don't yet understand the process involved at a deep level.

In that sense, it may be that calling some event or process "random" is just a confession of ignorance. (It's worth mentioning here that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in physics is about measuring reality, not reality itself.)

http://www.mayyoubehappy.com/heheandnopt8.html
 

ilemacedonia

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Newlife, I must to say thank you for posting this wonderful article.
I don't have any opinion formed yet about this subject but I'm starting thinking in that direction but I'm starting to think in that direction. I'll replay later with my viewing on the whole subject, I just need some time to think about it! :)

Best,
Ile
 

ilemacedonia

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I'm just thinking loud, I think that the principle called "Karma" is strongly related to the whole subject of Destiny. There're three kinds of Karma:
Pralabd is a Karma which we need to meet in this life. The Astrological Chart is a symbolical drawing of that Karma.
Kriyaman is the Karma we create in this life.
Sinchit is the baggage of Karma that we create with many lives.

Predictability and Unpredictability is related to these three types of Karma.
For every action there's a reaction. Because of the principle of Karma the word Randomity lose its meaning. But the wisdom is how to predict that effect which is outgoing here based on some earlier action.
I think the more Aware one becomes the less predictable he is. That is because he can see the big picture.
Here's also the principle of Grace on which many wisdom schools are referring.
I'm just throwing out random thoughts. I don't have formed opinion and viewpoint on these stuffs, but it is worth investigating.

Ile
 

newlife

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Well the thing is this; if time and space do not really exist or if time is not linear then that means that effect can actually precede cause.

And if we are always in the middle of infinity then we can reincarnate 22 trillion times and still have an infinity to go.
 
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sooo

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I think the article expresses well a difficult subject and view of it.

I don't interpret time and space as not existing, but of being one and the same. Not the kind which is relative to a revolving group of bodies, but a kind which stretches across space and time. Just as "the pull of gravity" is now theoretically proven to be the push of gravity, or "gravity push". Interesting stuff.

http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-intro.asp

And, whatever that stuff turns out to be, this much I'm quite sure, that I am that stuff; and in that sense, not me at all. I'd call that a destiny view. Finding ones place in that requires voluntary limitations, segmenting priorities and establishing balance on a constant but ever changing platform. Universal sea legs, self correcting balance and cadence, in touch with the time.

..there's in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing. Wilhelm 50

One can think of it as two sciences, which operate according to themselves, frequently contradicting each other, but which actually require one another to create.... whatever this stuff is.
 

Sparhawk

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Hmm, I think this is a good opportunity to recommend a novel I just finished that deals with some of these issues in a fictional but scientific basis.


I think the espionage plot is a piece of crap and that the protagonist is a PhD holding moron with less general education, in the matters discussed, than the average reader. Alas, he does find some interesting people in his quest that "educate" him (and the reader) on current cosmology and physics.

It deals, in great part, with the issue of "determinacy" (another word for "destiny," IMO).
 

Trojina

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I'm just thinking loud, I think that the principle called "Karma" is strongly related to the whole subject of Destiny. There're three kinds of Karma:
Pralabd is a Karma which we need to meet in this life. The Astrological Chart is a symbolical drawing of that Karma.
Kriyaman is the Karma we create in this life.
Sinchit is the baggage of Karma that we create with many lives.

Ile

i haven't read the article..just the title of the thread but I agree with what you said about karma and destiny. Karma and destiny must be inextricably linked
 

heylise

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It seems universe has a very small inclination to one side. A tiny preference for matter over antimatter, which made matter happen and not antimatter. I think this lopsided thingy is in everything. When you cast the coins, they fall to one side due to some tiny influence. So small that the mind itself can influence it on a very deep level, hidden deep in the subconscious. In the dark depths where mind and universe flow together.

In this same way I think fate and destiny work. You think you decide in a 'free' way, but your subconscious makes your decisions and choices incline in a direction. Without noticing you follow the road of your tao. Not especially a tao given to you by heaven, rather the one you contracted through your upbringing, good and bad encounters, way of living and so on. "Your" tao. Which means your destiny.

So I think you do make your own destiny in some ways, but much more of it is made by your life itself. A very big part of that is beyond your power, over many things you have no control.

People who are continuously told as a child that they are dummies will incline in their decisions towards making dumb ones. Things go wrong, as if they are destined to fail. Parents can make or break destinies, but very often they themselves have been 'made' that way as well. It is so hard to break through that vicious cycle that it looks like everything has been predestined by a higher power.

I refuse to believe that a child carries karma with it from previous lives, that goes against my grain.
 

Trojina

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actually its all dependent on whether you believe in having previous lives. If you do you then it follows we don't come here as blank slates. That we aleady are destined to experience certain situations that we need to for our souls growth.

Thats the general view of the purpose of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism isn't it ?

Or perhaps thats more of a new age angle ? Perhaps the Buddhist view of karma and reincarnation is more simply based on straight forward action/reaction..no life lesson type morality and all that . Not sure

But the point is I personally don't think we arrive as blank slates and i personally feel there probably are certain key experiences we can't avoid in this lifetime.


oh just saw Lise refuses to believe a child carries karma ? How strange...just cos you refuse to like it doens't mean its not true. Of course children come with karma, thats why they reincarnate.


well thats what I think. I have no evidence apart from every little child i have ever met is themselves, not a blank page, sometimes already with previous life memory, i had these when little too. Usually these fade as they get older though but the best evidence of reincarnation is from little kids trying to get back to their 'previous' families.

Theres been several cases in India where children keep asking to go back to their real family and when at last their parents take them to see their old family, they recognise their wife/husband and their children from their last life etc who are now adult and so on.




I find this evidence pretty irrefutable though some say it can be explained in other ways
 
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heylise

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believing in karma is not very different from not believing in karma
 

Trojina

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in how we live our lives no it probably doesn't make much difference
 

rodaki

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it doesn't?

if choices are a matter of the tiniest inclinations then every thought we entertain and assign meaning too makes a difference, no?

I find fascinating the story about kids recognizing their 'previous' families in the face of older family members (this is what you said, right?) and I too believe we don't come into the world empty slates . . gene memory is one thing that encourages me to think so . . even the act of being in the womb or being given birth already creates a big signature on our lives before we come to the world as separate living entities.

Once I asked a psychiatrist friend about whether they have any ideas about the primal material of a person's character, the one that pre-exists and makes people growing up together react differently to the same influences or events and he said that's the next big mystery they're trying to unravel . . for me astrology fills in the blank sometimes.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that our BIG decisions are basically made as a result of everything that we are, were and will be but I do think we have a choice. In the most everyday, mundane level we have all kinds of choices and that is where we can most exercise our right on freedom . . in a funny way that often means setting boundaries or holding back from being reduced to a reaction . . that's also where I find mindfulness to be most helpful

. . does that mean one then follows one's destiny? could be . . but then it becomes a co-created destiny, which I find hugely different from the idea of pre-determination . .
 

Trojina

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it doesn't?

if choices are a matter of the tiniest inclinations then every thought we entertain and assign meaning too makes a difference, no?

I find fascinating the story about kids recognizing their 'previous' families in the face of older family members (this is what you said, right?) and I too believe we don't come into the world empty slates . . gene memory is one thing that encourages me to think so . . even the act of being in the womb or being given birth already creates a big signature on our lives before we come to the world as separate living entities.

No I didn't mean they saw their previous families in the faces of their current family..I mean they actually ask to go visit the families they had in previous lives and know all the details of where and how they live...stories like this one http://www.circlesoflight.com/past-life/shanti-devi-html
As a child aged six a teacher explained reicarnation to me and I immediately recognised it as 'true' and familiar...just like the signs of the zodiac were always familiar to me.

I don't believe in gene memory in families i think it more likley we often reincarnate within the same family...you know like my grandfather is reborn as my son then my son seems to know all about the life of his grandfather......because he was his grandfather. There is much evidence of this from many people

Once I asked a psychiatrist friend about whether they have any ideas about the primal material of a person's character, the one that pre-exists and makes people growing up together react differently to the same influences or events and he said that's the next big mystery they're trying to unravel . . for me astrology fills in the blank sometimes.

the whole scientific angle doesn't interest me at all. Somewhat arrogant to think they can unravel the mysteries of the soul with psychiatry...but each to his own truth.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that our BIG decisions are basically made as a result of everything that we are, were and will be but I do think we have a choice. In the most everyday, mundane level we have all kinds of choices and that is where we can most exercise our right on freedom . . in a funny way that often means setting boundaries or holding back from being reduced to a reaction . . that's also where I find mindfulness to be most helpful

. . does that mean one then follows one's destiny? could be . . but then it becomes a co-created destiny, which I find hugely different from the idea of pre-determination . .

I feel so much does not happen because of any decision...unless it were a pre birth decision as reincarnationists might suggest. They would say we pick our families in order to have the experiences we need

I tend to think the major themes in our life are predestined

but it is a complex area i can't pretend to understand. I also think we can co create our reality, but within our karmic remit so to speak

we may also be able to transcend karma sometimes perhaps,....who knows
 
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rodaki

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thanks for the link, loved it :)
(just re-posting cause there was a small glitch in it:http://www.circlesoflight.com/past-life/shanti-devi.html)

yup, not sure about many 'karmic' things either . .
I wonder if what we really mean sometimes by talking about karma is nothing more than our very specific realities. I mean I find myself wondering more often about how to change or 'transcend' the limitations imposed to me by reality as such rather than those imposed by a more macroscopic view as that suggested by karma . . can we see so far as to really form an opinion?

just noticed how the title asks if we 'belive' in destiny -nice slip ;) . . maybe our faith is a sort of destiny in itself
 

newlife

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Well as the OP, I didn't really intend for this thread to be about reincarnation.

I just want to know if you think everything is predesined or not and why you think so. Real life examples are welcomed.
 

ilemacedonia

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It seems universe has a very small inclination to one side. A tiny preference for matter over antimatter, which made matter happen and not antimatter. I think this lopsided thingy is in everything. When you cast the coins, they fall to one side due to some tiny influence. So small that the mind itself can influence it on a very deep level, hidden deep in the subconscious. In the dark depths where mind and universe flow together.

In this same way I think fate and destiny work. You think you decide in a 'free' way, but your subconscious makes your decisions and choices incline in a direction. Without noticing you follow the road of your tao. Not especially a tao given to you by heaven, rather the one you contracted through your upbringing, good and bad encounters, way of living and so on. "Your" tao. Which means your destiny.

So I think you do make your own destiny in some ways, but much more of it is made by your life itself. A very big part of that is beyond your power, over many things you have no control.

People who are continuously told as a child that they are dummies will incline in their decisions towards making dumb ones. Things go wrong, as if they are destined to fail. Parents can make or break destinies, but very often they themselves have been 'made' that way as well. It is so hard to break through that vicious cycle that it looks like everything has been predestined by a higher power.

I refuse to believe that a child carries karma with it from previous lives, that goes against my grain.

The more Aware one becomes, more control over his life he have.
 

ilemacedonia

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Trojan,
actually its all dependent on whether you believe in having previous lives. If you do you then it follows we don't come here as blank slates. That we aleady are destined to experience certain situations that we need to for our souls growth.

It is not a matter of believe, it is a matter of what you have experienced as true in your life. I know from my own experience and dealing with my past life memories (which actually brings me knowledge to face and handle to major issues in my life) that facing the past life memories store in our subconscious minds is very valuable and needing knowledge in maturing and spiritual growing of one person. We become more aware and in control of our lives. We find a purpose. One can deal with past life memories without knowing that that "memories" are from past life actually. He would think that they are merely fantasies maybe. But for me, that is more poor knowledge than to go back and see actually what was your purpose in previous lives and what is your purpose in this life. Where have you been, where are you know and where are you going. Astrology is one of the most valuable resource to understand all these stuffs. Other hermetical disciplines are also valuable.
I think that the discussion of "Are you believe in Karma and Reincarnation" must be the first, and discussion of Destiny should follow after one is clear with his self what is his viewpoint on this.
 

Tohpol

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Well as the OP, I didn't really intend for this thread to be about reincarnation.

I just want to know if you think everything is predesined or not and why you think so. Real life examples are welcomed.

All the great ancient wisdom traditions seem to indicate that there is indeed a destiny rather than a fate for people at some point in developmental time / space. There's a big difference between he two. Something I mentioned in another thread a few months ago in exploring divination:

"I don't think there's any predestination in the sense that we understand it i.e. fate. I do think there is a type of destiny according to an open, fluid future. Similarly, I don't think there is a tabula rasa - there is a many layered contiuum of consciousness that is refined over "time" which encompasses the existence between death and birth. Destiny might be likened to being presented with a wall that we need to paint and an infinite number of paint pots of every conceivable colour. Fate however, means we have the wall and one paint pot with one colour. Very linear. Very deterministic."

As to reincarnation, (fascinating subject) I think it's important to be aware of the possibility that many of these concepts that we juggle with our little linear monkey-minds are usually distorted concepts sourced from an original "blueprint" or design that can indeed be applied to the human realm but depending on where they are on the progressive spiral of learning - which is entirely non-linear. Thus reincarnation placed in context with multidimensionality and a host of other possibilities becomes somewhat short of the mark imo.

For example, in some of the old Christian traditions there is a kind of precept that rather than reincarnation in the buddhist or hindu sense (ditching the idea of returning to animal consciousness) it is more like a film that is paused, rewound and played over and over until the protagonist (you) "gets it." Until such time the soul is "grown" and takes control of the personality in question and is then able to consciously navigate towards new and more varied life situations the individual remains more or less like a pinball bouncing from one material experience to another without much of a plan. It's only when the suffering has reached a peak and the frequency changes that a plan is prepared. Then it gets really interesting....:D
 
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Trojina

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Trojan,


It is not a matter of believe, it is a matter of what you have experienced as true in your life.

what you believe often comes from what you have experienced as true in your life
I know from my own experience and dealing with my past life memories (which actually brings me knowledge to face and handle to major issues in my life) that facing the past life memories store in our subconscious minds is very valuable and needing knowledge in maturing and spiritual growing of one person. We become more aware and in control of our lives. We find a purpose. One can deal with past life memories without knowing that that "memories" are from past life actually. He would think that they are merely fantasies maybe. But for me, that is more poor knowledge than to go back and see actually what was your purpose in previous lives and what is your purpose in this life. Where have you been, where are you know and where are you going. Astrology is one of the most valuable resource to understand all these stuffs. Other hermetical disciplines are also valuable.
I think that the discussion of "Are you believe in Karma and Reincarnation" must be the first, and discussion of Destiny should follow after one is clear with his self what is his viewpoint on this.

I never quite buy the idea of a specific purpose in each life or that it can be known. In the end the only purpose of being is....being. Everything serves that.

I agree with your last sentence, its impossible for me also to discuss predestination and so on without also discussing such concepts as karma. Though i am not sure how anyone can be that clear on these matters as much is beyond the scope of the human mind so we can only surmise really
 
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ilemacedonia

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Trojan,
what you believe often comes from what you have experienced as true in your life
Believing is different from actually knowing something. There're many people who believe in different kind of Dogmas and they actually never experienced them or live them. For example, I heard many people say: "Well, I believe that there's some God in Heaven". After some time they say the opposite: "I don't know, I'm in doubts of existing of God, I believe that there's no such thing as God". But the one who Knows, who has experienced this greater power in the Universe he knows for sure that there's such thing more powerful than we humans are. The one who experienced the opposite may say: "I'm sure that there's no such thing as greater power. Everything is the way as we look, there's no hidden things of which we humans don't know and don't see. I know that from experience." But to Believe is on lower level of to actually Know. To Know and to Believe are two different things. To Know is more stronger. Beliefs are shaking.
The first two hexagrams shows that state of Knowing (not believing). The Superior man is actually Knowing the Decree of Heaven and act according to..The one who Believe is on shaking ground, he may believe today and not believe tomorrow. Knowing - that is the wisdom. Knowing and Understanding - not Believing.

Best,
Ile
 

gene

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Quoting Topal

"For example, in some of the old Christian traditions there is a kind of precept that rather than reincarnation in the buddhist or hindu sense (ditching the idea of returning to animal consciousness) it is more like a film that is paused, rewound and played over and over until the protagonist (you) "gets it." Until such time the soul is "grown" and takes control of the personality in question and is then able to consciously navigate towards new and more varied life situations the individual remains more or less like a pinball bouncing from one material experience to another without much of a plan. It's only when the suffering has reached a peak and the frequency changes that a plan is prepared. Then it gets really interesting...."

Actually both concept are true. The universe is mulitdimensional in nature, therefore a person can be reincarnated in any universe at any time and at any time period. The script is chosen before birth, and the script is intended to teach us lessons we could not learn otherwise. However, the script is not absolute fate. It is a form of destiny, and is likely to be followed throughout life, but it does not have to be. If one awakens before the so called destined time, the script can be changed. By continual use of affirmations that affect the subconscious mind, the script can be changed. But one must be aware first that there is a script to be changed.

And here, to paraphrase things said in another post. To be materialistic does not mean that one wants money. There is nothing wrong with that. In that sense we should all be materialist as possible. What it means is to believe that our reality is the only reality and there is nothing beyond it. We live in the matrix. It is a preprogrammed reality. It is a dream, and that is what the script is, it is a dream that is programmed by the dreamer. And as such we create our reality on a daily basis. It is when we continue in that dream and refuse to wake up that we are truly materialistic. It has nothing to do with how much money we have.

I listened to a very interesting scientist discuss these various things last night. I listen for about an hour before I had to give it up. His premise was that we live in a programmed world. I have known this for years. Science is just now finding out. Do scientists know everything? Obviously not. But they are starting to catch up to the real world. By observing the universe they actually change it. The universe is a reflection of the one who views it.

Gene
"
 

heylise

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What I find difficult to accept about reincarnation and destiny are the forms they have been cast in. The 'reborn'-form and the 'fate'-form. Not the idea behind that. I think there is a universal 'mind' of which we are all part, and very universal ways of reincarnation or destiny do fit in that kind of idea. But the actual facts... I know that there is a lot of evidence, but in all metaphysical things there is a lot of evidence which then gets used for proving convictions which fit in our minds. There is a big danger in that. Like in India, where they think invalid people committed some crime in a previous life. That is squeezing a big universal principle into very limited human ideas.

I like the big idea behind both, which gives a sense of being connected to universe, being part of "all". I dislike very much the limited versions with tangible "proof" and the convictions which come with it. I think following our tao, the one we are meant to follow, happens in this deep space of connection. And if tao includes predestination and reincarnation is not that interesting then. Is universe predestined? No idea. For us small human beings, yes, it is. But the big big image...

I like Topals paint colors. Painting your destiny, beautiful. Reading your post now, after writing mine, I see that I have very similar ideas, so maybe my post is here and there redundant.
 

ilemacedonia

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I never quite buy the idea of a specific purpose in each life or that it can be known. In the end the only purpose of being is....being. Everything serves that.

Well ok, that is your Knowing (Believing).
I have a different viewpoint. I believe (know) that when you find your true Being and Existing in these world among all peoples that are out there - you find your purpose. One can truly Be in his life and yet experienced that Being as a Violinist - that is his Purpose. He express his Beingness through his passion in life - to be a violinist and to make people happy with his music. To only Be and not know what is your purpose and how you as individual will serve this humanity is a blank state for me. One can serve the humanity as merely Being himself and people would admire him and he would be an example of truly Being a human Being (like a wise men are, like Moji, Yogananda and etc..). But they still have a purpose: "They teach"! To Be and to have a purpose is one single thing for me - they're not separate. I can't see purpose in the lives of people who sit whole day and watch a TV and drink beer. But to truly Be a more aware human being with deeper consciousness, than you like it or not - you already have a mission or purpose. You can't just Be and sit alone without showing that Being on humanity. We need that kind of people (wise men) to rise the awareness of the whole humanity. That is the purpose of the people who are in Beingness state.
That is just my opinion.

Best,
Ile
 

gene

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As far as purpose in life...

Their is one purpose for all of us and it is depicted in the story of the prodigal son, and in the overall view of the I Ching, a form of the prodigal son story. That purpose is to return to the father. We are all one with the father and our material bodies are only an illusion created by consciousness, when we realize this, end the dream, come to realize our true source, we "return to the Father." All incarnations are a situation in which the prodigal son leaves the father to "go out into the world." In doing so one actually forgets who he or she is. The trick is to remember who we are. This is our purpose, and the ultimate destiny of all of us, whether we presently want that or not.

Gene
 

ilemacedonia

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As far as purpose in life...

Their is one purpose for all of us and it is depicted in the story of the prodigal son, and in the overall view of the I Ching, a form of the prodigal son story. That purpose is to return to the father. We are all one with the father and our material bodies are only an illusion created by consciousness, when we realize this, end the dream, come to realize our true source, we "return to the Father." All incarnations are a situation in which the prodigal son leaves the father to "go out into the world." In doing so one actually forgets who he or she is. The trick is to remember who we are. This is our purpose, and the ultimate destiny of all of us, whether we presently want that or not.

Gene

Yes, that is the Ultimate purpose of all human beings - to return to the Oneness (our primordial state). But there are also individual purposes in this Material Plane called Earth where we all live, have families, earthly name, earthly professions and etc. There is Ultimate purpose of all humanity and every individual has that Ultimate purpose in him self. But there is also to called it "secondary purpose", or purpose which we the individual selfs have in the circumstances in our lives (where we born, what we do and etc). That "secondary" purpose is serving the Ultimate purpose. We must not forget that we live on Earth where we have material boundaries. How we live in that boundaries and the way we go to that Ultimate Purpose is the Earthly Purpose of which I'm talking about. One Singer with his song and voice may serve his Purpose to get the individuals closer to their feelings (and yet that is one step of the path to the Ultimate Purpose but its not the Ultimate Purpose itself). Religions tried to serve that dogma called the Earth: "Valley of crying" (in Christianity). The Religions (well maybe not all) try to tell that earthly ambitions are not good. Earthly ambitions and purposes serves as purpose for the Ultimate purpose. We can't stop the whole process of entertaining (I talk about different professions in this earth) and go directly to the Ultimate Purpose. We must put our earthly purpose to serve to Humanity as a path to the Ultimate Purpose. Reaching the Ultimate Purpose without Earthly Purpose for me has no sense and it is not possible.
 

gene

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ile

You are absolutely right. It has been my observation of mankind, including myself, that it is hard for us to want to live if we feel no purpose. There came a time in my life as with many I suspect that I realized that my actions would indicate that my purpose was only to serve myself. When I realized that I realized I had lived a very selfish life. Now I realize that my purpose is to give in as much of a way as possible. To help others as they need it and request it. To find a way to be of use to others. Sometimes when I think I have found a good purpose, a good way to help, it is not really my true purpose, then I have to search more. But this is what life is all about. When we realize we are all one we realize that selfishness only leads to destruction of self, and selflessness leads back to the source.

People often commit suicide when they think they can find no purpose in their lifes. When we get old, I suspect one reason people die when they do is they feel that they are of no use any more. It is inborn into humans to need to feel purpose, and ultimately there is purpose for us all, for we are all the "prodigal son of God."

Gene
 

Tohpol

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Actually both concept are true. The universe is mulitdimensional in nature, therefore a person can be reincarnated in any universe at any time and at any time period. The script is chosen before birth, and the script is intended to teach us lessons we could not learn otherwise. However, the script is not absolute fate. It is a form of destiny, and is likely to be followed throughout life, but it does not have to be. If one awakens before the so called destined time, the script can be changed. By continual use of affirmations that affect the subconscious mind, the script can be changed. But one must be aware first that there is a script to be changed.

RIght. Which is why I said in the same post: "Thus reincarnation placed in context with multidimensionality and a host of other possibilities becomes somewhat short of the mark imo." Meaning, that reincarnation is traditionally not wide enough in scope of meaning precisely due to the nature of this multidimensionality.

I'm not convinced that mere affirmations can have any effect at all on the nature of soul but who knows? The idea of "recurrence" for example, in 4th Way teachings tend to see reincarnation as a backrgound process until there is a conscious alignment towards soul-centered living i.e. a strong conscious awareness of the soul as the primary mover which is somewhat rarer than perhaps we think. Ouspensky and Mouravieff wrote about the idea of recurrence as a somewhat mechanical replay of mechanical circumstances. i.e. when you are asleep to anything other than servicing one's own needs and wants. So, in the sense of a multidimensional Universe then I guess it follows that there are In these parallel branches or variants, endless similar recurrences in ones life which could play out into infinity.

Again; I'm not sure about affirmations but more substantial influences such as objective art, certain ancient wisdom or esoteric schools may give a chance for us to escape the ever-present mechanical (ego/desire/service to self) recurrence. Then perhaps at some give point on the spiral or staircase enough conscious energy may be accumulated for true individuality to occur and hence be free of the"matrix." I guess we are more or less saying the same thing anyway as there's always a problem of slipping into semantics...

And due to that I think knowledge of reincarnation and karma aren't really essential part of a path as you can only really help yourself consciosuly by working on yourself in the present and attempting to fully know your negative dynamics that may be hindering you and thus others. That's extremely difficult to see objectively.

I also think Karma is hopelessly confused by different belief systems and is pretty much irrelvant. By that I mean, If one is still largely an unconscious "pin-ball" having not established a connection to the real Self or soul (which requires an accumulation and recalibtration of the personality and it's energy) and which may then consciously survive death instead of being drawn back instantly into the incarnational chaos; where there is some modicum of integration and true free-will and not simply a biological machine that reacts.... then the concept of Karma can be known after there is a foundation by which a spiritual "credit" and "debit" can be accounted for and applied.

But then it's all pretty sounding theory that resonates or not...I can't claim to know...Only that it could be true.....:D
 
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sooo

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If one is still largely an unconscious "pin-ball" having not established a connection to the real Self or soul (which requires an accumulation and recalibtration of the personality and it's energy) and which may then consciously survive death instead of being drawn back instantly into the incarnational chaos; where there is some modicum of integration and true free-will and not simply a biological machine that reacts.... then the concept of Karma can be known after there is a foundation by which a spiritual "credit" and "debit" can be accounted for and applied.

But then it's all pretty sounding theory that resonates or not...I can't claim to know...Only that it could be true.....:D

An unconscious "pin-ball" - eloquent description of that state. I wonder if we individually ever evolve past that completely? And, if we do, do we miss it enough to dive back into the chaos again? :mischief: I think boredom is hell while emptiness is heaven. Boredom is the mishandling of emptiness; karma is the accumulation of spoiled fruit. Deliverance is a fresh start, but sometimes not till after having the hell spooked outa ya. lol
 

gene

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By and large affirmations don't work unless they are accepted by the subconscious and override the present belief system. It can happen but it usually takes much more than that. The soul must be convinced its perception of reality is really not quite right. As most of us are sleepwalking through life, we do not recognize a higher reality, nor do we realize we are living in a dream world. It has been thousands of years since Chuang Tzu asked us all if we were men dreaming of being butterflies or butterflies dreaming of being men. Chuang Tzu was waking up from the dream. Many of us have realized we are in a dream, but still do not know exactly how to wake up. It is a long journey, and only the deepest part of the soul knows its true course. But the soul lies hidden within us and we do not recognize it. We recognize only our conscious selves. Therefore, the ancient wisdom was, "man, know thyself." But none of us do.

Gene
 

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By the way. One of the reason there are so many disagreements and rages against one another by those who profess to be spiritual is because we compare apples to oranges and do not argue from the same underlying perspectives. We take what the other person says, hear it in a perspective that the other did not mean, and a clash results. Often this is a necessary step in our evolution, but when this happens, it is imperative to take a step back and look at the underlying perceptions we have when we speak, and the underlying perceptions the other person has and see if we have a mismatch. It is our underlying perceptions that bring us to disagree with others. Two people can see or read the same thing and find something very different about it. People argue two points of view and yet are really saying the same thing. Two other people talk about something and they seem to agree and no one really understands that they are actually miles apart. It is so important to look at our underlying perceptions and see how they distort or reflect our own reality.

Gene
 

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