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Family Conflict Over Religious Role in Wedding

mulberry

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Hello all,

I'm new to posting in the forums but I have been a longtime reader and I am excited to at last feel called to post. I'm hoping for some help with interpreting a difficult family situation around religion. I'm also looking forward to helping others with their readings in the future.

I've been in a serious relationship for the past three years, and now my partner and I are committed to getting married before he starts graduate school (so that we can qualify for married student housing). We are excited about the marriage but have no plans for a big ceremony. Yet we would like to have some kind of celebration (vs. just going to city hall).

The problem is that my partner comes from an extremely religious, evangelical Christian family. His grandfather, the family patriarch, is even the pastor of a church. My partner stopped believing in their brand of religion when he was in his teens (but never directly addressed this with the family). We're not especially close to his family, but they have given us some financial support and made it clear that they would in the future as well (for example, if we had a child). They also significantly helped my partner and his mother years ago when my partner was a child.

My partner's grandfather has made it clear that he would like to perform our wedding ceremony. In fact, he's made us feel as though we do not really have a choice, and to not let him do so would cause a rift between us and the family.

We really do not want to have a falling out with the family. But we also cannot see ourselves being married in an evangelical Christian ceremony. It just feels wrong, as it does not follow either of our beliefs. (My partner is an atheist and I'm a Buddhist.) But it is also awful to contemplate a division in the family over this.

I asked Yi, "What would be the outcome of going ahead and letting M. [my grandfather-in-law] perform our wedding ceremony, despite our differences of belief?"

He replied with 17.1 -> 45

I assumed at first that this meant we should in fact go ahead and let him performing the ceremony, as in the commentary line "adaptation to the demands of the time ". But now I'm not so sure. I'm worried that acquiescing to this will create a slippery slope, especially after we have children (which the family will no doubt want to baptize, bring to church, etc.) Also, I'm worried that despite the strength of our relationship, the marriage of my partner and I will suffer in some psychic way if we begin on a note of deception (going along with something we don't believe in). The Wilhelm commentary for Following caught my eye with the line " If he has to obtain a following by force or cunning, by conspiracy or by creating faction, he invariably arouses resistance, which obstructs willing adherence." This seems like a warning not to let M. do the ceremony.

Another factor is that every family wedding my partner's grandfather has performed has ended in divorce (3 so far). Not a good track record.

I am at a loss for interpreting 45 as the outcome...perhaps it refers to the family as a whole?

Thank you to anyone who has read this far, and is moved to comment.
 

foxx777

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Gee, I am torn about this reading.

Normally, I would view 17.1 > 45 as very auspicious, as in , "the standard is changing; Following brings good fortune." Following ought to mean a very positive outcome RE the family patriarch.

Additionally, Hexagram 45 is about a communal meeting space, a place where a group can gather for some transcendent belief. Again, looks VERY auspicious in terms of following the Christian patriarch.

But I am troubled: You and your partner do not believe in this faith. And the Patriarch has hinted he is making you "an offer you can't refuse." :eek:

In addition, could it be that the divorces are stemming precisely from this meddling???

Sometimes the I Ching responds with the other's views: Wilhelm has a book of commentary in which an ancient Chinese leader threw the coins for the oracle twice. The first time, the answer was in favor of the old regime. The second, it was in favor of the new rebels. This answer you have received sounds like it came from the family Patriarch!!!:eek:
 
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HI and Welcome Mulberry,

If I received this reading I would step outside of the box, skip the whole ceremony and elope.
Wikiwing on 17.1:
Step outside your official role. Be less formal, be more human. Have more allegiance to your fellow-humans, less to a central power (or your own importance as its representative).

ADD: Do you think the official in the line is the grandfather? Or yourself?
 

meng

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That's an intense situation. Having been on both sides of a very similar quandary, I think a mutual respect must be acknowledged, if the old pastor is to do the honor of joining you in holy matrimony. I think this is your part of giving in, of changing the normal way you would do them, for the sake of the family you each are marrying into. However, line 1 doesn't let go of who he/she is, it just guides the way. There's no leaving oneself implied, but there would be a great deal of respect shown in welcoming the old pastor. If the name of Jesus Christ is offensive to you, then I don't think it could work. I think it's going to be imperative to the old scout that Jesus is there. If he can accept your level of honest belief, philosophy as being as it is, without looking down on you, then I think a potential 45 is explicit.

The outcome of honoring your old monarch would be a gathering.

(added) A gathering is neither all good or bad. Contrarily, a gathering always gathers both.
 
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Also, I think that 45 could represent your need for comfort in the situation. Trying to do what is right and keep everything together trying to make sure you are as secure as possible both monetarily and also with a lasting marriage.
 

mulberry

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Thank you Foxx77! Your reply was very illuminating. In fact, my first reaction to Yi's response was precisely that: "This is a conversation intended for M. (the grandfather), not me." Then I dismissed that. But perhaps it's as you said, a response in the form of M.'s perspective? In that way, it makes sense. How often have you found this happening, personally, in asking the I Ching?

Also, thank you for making the link between his meddling and the divorces as well. I hadn't quite put it together, because on the surface there does not seem to be much discord in the family. My partner is the only one who has left the church (or even their hometown). But when I think about it, all of the failed marriages would probably never have come about in the first place without the grandfather's pressure. In the saddest case, my partner's uncle, a "cured" gay man, married a woman seemingly to prove his straightness. (Of course, it ended in divorce within a few years) Our marriage is not coming about out of any pressure from my partner's family (it's the only one not like that) but I'm still worried for the effect of his pressure on our union.

I asked the Yi just now, "What would come for my marriage with T. if we did not let M. do our wedding ceremony?" and received 3.3.4 -> 49. The Yi's reply is somewhat confusing but also startlingly clear... Am I right to think that he might be continuing to reply from the patriarch M.'s perspective? Line 3 is quite clear in stating that it is dangerous and ill-advised to go forth without a guide (whom I assume is the partiarch): "Whoever hunts deer without the forester/ Only loses his way in the forest./The superior man understands the signs of the time/And prefers to desist./To go on brings humiliation." The fourth line seems like a continued insistence on taking the help offered by M. (despite the attached strings that I am so uncomfortable with): from Wilhelm's commentary, "an opportunity to make connections offers itself. It must be seized. Neither false pride nor false reserve should deter us. Bringing oneself to take the first step, even when it involves a certain degree of self-
abnegation, is a sign of inner clarity. To accept help in a difficult situation is not a disgrace. If the right helper is found, all goes well."

Leading to Revolution, I assume means that if my partner and I follow through on having the wedding on our own terms, there will be a split between us and the family, and the loss of possibly much-needed help in the future (the "difficult situation"-- we are not, either of us, likely headed for lucrative careers.)

I'm still not sure how the Yi's response ties into my question about the actual impact on our marriage. My main worry is that going through with this Christian thing we don't believe in will somehow doom us as a couple. Is Yi saying that our ties to family/tradition/the patriarch should trump our own personal (perhaps, from Yi's perspective, self-indulgent) attempts to define our lives for ourselves on the spiritual level? I have been using the I Ching for years, but I have never encountered a dynamic between me and Yi quite like this.

I humbly thank anyone who reads this and has an opinion.
 

ginnie

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The important thing is your own holiness, the holy being you know you are, and the form of the ceremony cannot change that. I would think your fiance is having more trouble with this than you are. Since he's an atheist, how could he in good conscience stand up to be married by a man of the cloth? Unless, of course, outward forms do not matter that much to him.

Aside from the fact that the old pastor is an evangelical Christian, how do you two get along with him otherwise? Is it that there is no real relationship there?

I think the meaning of the 17.1 is that you both should talk with other people about this and hear what others have to say on the matter.
 

mulberry

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Thank you very much answeredquestions and meng. I'm really humbled that people are taking the time to help me with this. Thank you.

Answeredquestions, I think your interpretation makes a lot of sense. In fact, eloping is what my partner has repeatedly said he wants to do... He feels the most pressure, as it is his family (of course) and also because he is the most averse to the church. I was raised in a very counterculture family and have no immediate ill-will towards the Christian church because (as my partner gently points out) I've never experienced its potential dark side. As for 45, I think you are also right... I really hope that we can all get along and I don't wish to have a falling out with the family or do something that would make my future children distant from their paternal relatives. I grew up in a family fractured like that for different reasons, and it was really unpleasant.

Meng, I also think you make some important points. The name of Jesus Christ is fine with me, and I think my partner could stomach it. But I do not like the fire and brimstone aspects of the patriarch's faith (his sermons are big on eternal damnation...). I'm not sure how much leeway we'd have in discussing with him what we'd like his part of the ceremony to be like. And that is where the big risk lies-- if we open the dialogue, I'm not sure there's a way back out without some serious family damage. On the other hand, eloping would be a bit of a shock to them, one they would eventually get over, I think.

One idea we had was to elope somewhere or have a semi-secret ceremony with a Buddhist practitioner, then go down south and have a ceremony with the grandfather after the fact. It wouldn't matter to us once the first (real) ceremony was done. But this also feels like trafficking in deception to some degree.

Thank you everyone.
 

mulberry

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Thank you, ginnie. You're right that it is my partner more than me who has problems with the church (and his family's role in it). I think he's willing to go through with the ceremony with his grandfather simply to keep the peace-- but he also seems fretful and unhappy about it. Thank you for pointing out that the form of the ceremony cannot change who I really am. I appreciate that reminder a lot.

There's a very real relationship between my partner and his grandfather, and it is unusually close. I should clarify here that the grandfather is not even biologically related to my partner. He adopted my partner's mother (I'll call her Lynn) as a child when he married her widowed mother. And despite not being her biological father, he took Lynn in when she got pregnant in high school and had my partner out of wedlock. They never disowned her or forced her to give her son up for adoption, despite their fundamentalist beliefs. She and my partner's father later married, but for the first year of my partner's life his grandfather and grandmother took care of him and financially assisted his mother.

So, we feel a great deal of debt to him. That said, his heavy-handed influence on the other members of the family (such as my partner's gay uncle, the patriarch's biological son) has been near-tragic. And while we have a warm relationship with him, we never feel we are able to be honest with him and we don't know what he (and the other believers in the family) truly think of us. The grandfather's own mother is still alive and she was bold enough to tell me at Christmas dinner a few years ago that I was going to hell (it's an amusing story) because I innocently admitted I was not raised Christian. The others were appalled at this, and apologized, but we aren't sure they didn't agree deep down...

Thank you everyone for reading this.
 

foxx777

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Thank you Foxx77! Your reply was very illuminating. In fact, my first reaction to Yi's response was precisely that: "This is a conversation intended for M. (the grandfather), not me." Then I dismissed that. But perhaps it's as you said, a response in the form of M.'s perspective? In that way, it makes sense. How often have you found this happening, personally, in asking the I Ching?

Also, thank you for making the link between his meddling and the divorces as well. I hadn't quite put it together, because on the surface there does not seem to be much discord in the family. My partner is the only one who has left the church (or even their hometown). But when I think about it, all of the failed marriages would probably never have come about in the first place without the grandfather's pressure. In the saddest case, my partner's uncle, a "cured" gay man, married a woman seemingly to prove his straightness. (Of course, it ended in divorce within a few years) Our marriage is not coming about out of any pressure from my partner's family (it's the only one not like that) but I'm still worried for the effect of his pressure on our union.

I asked the Yi just now, "What would come for my marriage with T. if we did not let M. do our wedding ceremony?" and received 3.3.4 -> 49. The Yi's reply is somewhat confusing but also startlingly clear... Am I right to think that he might be continuing to reply from the patriarch M.'s perspective? Line 3 is quite clear in stating that it is dangerous and ill-advised to go forth without a guide (whom I assume is the partiarch): "Whoever hunts deer without the forester/ Only loses his way in the forest./The superior man understands the signs of the time/And prefers to desist./To go on brings humiliation." The fourth line seems like a continued insistence on taking the help offered by M. (despite the attached strings that I am so uncomfortable with): from Wilhelm's commentary, "an opportunity to make connections offers itself. It must be seized. Neither false pride nor false reserve should deter us. Bringing oneself to take the first step, even when it involves a certain degree of self-
abnegation, is a sign of inner clarity. To accept help in a difficult situation is not a disgrace. If the right helper is found, all goes well."

Leading to Revolution, I assume means that if my partner and I follow through on having the wedding on our own terms, there will be a split between us and the family, and the loss of possibly much-needed help in the future (the "difficult situation"-- we are not, either of us, likely headed for lucrative careers.)

I'm still not sure how the Yi's response ties into my question about the actual impact on our marriage. My main worry is that going through with this Christian thing we don't believe in will somehow doom us as a couple. Is Yi saying that our ties to family/tradition/the patriarch should trump our own personal (perhaps, from Yi's perspective, self-indulgent) attempts to define our lives for ourselves on the spiritual level? I have been using the I Ching for years, but I have never encountered a dynamic between me and Yi quite like this.

I humbly thank anyone who reads this and has an opinion.
Your understanding seems quite astute. I must say, I have often found the I Ching, during my own considerable family conflicts and crises, would appear to be speaking in the voice of the dominant family member.

It was only after coming upon Wilhelm's story about the ancient emperor who found the old regime speaking to him through the oracle, that I began to suspect that this may be a deliberate technique for illumination on the part of the I Ching.

Another way of viewing 3.3 could be that the I Ching is warning YOU and your partner that you may be getting into a dense forest of confusion and entrapment by following this family patriarch.:eek:

Hexagram 49, which bespeaks Revolution and Radical Change insists that, "on your own day, you will be believed."

Could this be telling you and your partner that although you may indeed be cut off financially and socially should you go your own way, you may be the stronger for it in the long run? Again, all is grist for the mill.
:bows:
 

pocossin

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17.1 -> 45 is a beautiful casting for a wedding. Hexagram 17 represents a yoke in the Great Treatise (Wilhelm, p.333), and 45 is a temple. Line 1 is the line of preparation before action begins. I think your fears are misplaced. It is your wedding, not your grandfather-in-law's. Write the service you want performed in the place that you choose. Perhaps outdoors in a garden or park -- like Eden, and if you have a friend who sings, that could be your music. Then you and partner discuss it with Grandpa, and let him know that you want a minimal and informal service. You admire the family values your grandfather-in-law practices, and that is all that needs to be said.
 

meng

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Meng, I also think you make some important points. The name of Jesus Christ is fine with me, and I think my partner could stomach it. But I do not like the fire and brimstone aspects of the patriarch's faith (his sermons are big on eternal damnation...).

Then, that is what I'd make very clear from the onset. Some Christians can handle that, especially to preserve love within the family. My older brother has become very devout, while I have left that faith system, or rather have integrated into a brand of personal relationship with the Sage philosophy, but understanding that it's just a philosophy, and doesn't explain a thing, it only attempts to interpret them. He doesn't really understand where I'm coming from, but he's come to a point of deciding he loves me and wants relationship, and through that he's able to open to understand my perspective isn't so off the wall or threatening to his beliefs.

I'm saying it's possible to develop this same kind of mutual respect with your family to be. It'll take a bit of yielding on both parts though. I mean, if you or your mate would grind your teeth every time someone in the Christian side of the clan ended saying grace or a prayer with, in Jesus' name. But if within yourself, you find a way to interpret 'in Jesus' name', which doesn't violate your conscience or heart, then your interpretation is your interpretation. He has no right to protest that. I doubt Jesus or the Buddha would give it a second thought. :)
 

long yi

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It is not against your Buddhist religion to marry at the church, but it is against his Grandfather's religion to marry you at the chuch because you are not a member of their church and religion.

Your six line layout
出生时间:年 性别:女 起卦方式:直接指定
起卦时间:2012年06月09日13时31分
神煞:天乙—寅午 福星—巳 日禄—酉 羊刃—申 驿马—亥 桃花—午 华盖—丑
干支:壬辰年 丙午月 辛丑日 乙未时
旬空:午未  寅卯  辰巳  辰巳


六神  伏神    震宫:泽雷随(归魂)     兑宫:泽地萃
         【本 卦】           【变 卦】
滕蛇       ▅▅ ▅▅ 妻财丁未土 应   ▅▅ ▅▅ 妻财丁未土  
勾陈       ▅▅▅▅▅ 官鬼丁酉金     ▅▅▅▅▅ 官鬼丁酉金 应
朱雀 子孙庚午火 ▅▅▅▅▅ 父母丁亥水     ▅▅▅▅▅ 父母丁亥水  
青龙       ▅▅ ▅▅ 妻财庚辰土 世   ▅▅ ▅▅ 兄弟乙卯木  
玄武       ▅▅ ▅▅ 兄弟庚寅木     ▅▅ ▅▅ 子孙乙巳火 世
白虎       ▅▅▅▅▅ 父母庚子水  ○→ ▅▅ ▅▅ 妻财乙未土 

Line 4, line 1 refers to the parents or grandparent generation.
There is hidden movement in line 4. I think they will back down and leave you alone.

You are in line 3.
There is a woman in line 3 and another woman in line 6.
I cannot tell who these women are. The woman in line 3 has no say over anything.
The woman in line 6 is interfering with your marriage plans.
The parent and grandparent generation's proposal has something to to with this woman in line 6.

The line 6 woman has influence over the family.
It seems that your partner are caught in between two women and express no opinion (line 5). He is not in a position to decide on anything.

Line 5 refers to rule and regulations. The woman in line 6 must comply with regulations. If the church does not allow a non-member (Buddhist) to be married there. What is the issue?

Line 1 and line 4 are in conflict over the marriage plans, but it is not a hostile one.

Since I do not know who these women are, this is all I can do for you.

Hexagram 45 means gathering (that's all). If you press with the rules of the church, I think this is easiest approach. Just get married at the government's office and ask the lady at line 6 for buy-in.

Line 6 produces line 5, line 5 produce line 4 in the 5 element analysis. This means the party are not objecting.
 

ginnie

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This family matter, mixed as it is with deeply felt religious differences and sensitive financial issues, has gotten oh, so very entangled.

I'd ask Yi, "What if we get married both in a Buddhist ceremony and by the grandfather?"

I don't think there's anything sneaky about being married in two ceremonies. People do that all the time in an entirely upfront way. The reason being that these days there's a lot of diversity in this world of ours that needs to be respected. The dominant culture of the United States is WASP -- White, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant -- but they hardly have hegemony anymore. This is not the early 1800's but the 21st century and things have shifted, especially in the area of religion and fixed beliefs.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with eloping or even tying the knot in the county clerk's office, to save money and to keep control of the situation in your own hands.

Beware of making the old patriarch into an ogre. He's clearly not one, as his care of the family in the past has demonstrated. Staying flexible and asking more questions of Yi when in a quiet state of mind, preferably after time spent in meditation, should be helpful as this unfolds.:bows:
 
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dragona

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Hello, many wise things were said above, perhaps just this from me:
You are respectful and in need of being diplomatic and that should count for something in the pastor`s eyes. Would it be possible for the two of you to see him as a couple and offer out of respect for the religious upbring your partner had and your untied wish to be accepted into the family (if the Church allows) ask for an outside, less rigid service, perhaps with your own written wows? That way you give promise to one another in front of the family and honor the occasion for yourselves primely as it should be.
If the family cannot accept the decision to attend the Buddhist wedding ceremony, perhaps you should have it as an intimate ceremony, only for yourselves?That way you get the best of both - a family support and acceptance and your own intimate and perhaps more fulfilling for you personally as a Buddhist ceremony. If that is possible, maybe that would be a compromise you could both live with at the beginning of your married life.
Hope this helps and wish you all the best.
 

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