Feeling bad 'Quitting iching'

[Anne333]

Hello everybody,I have a strange andere not so nice story. My motherlanguage is not english.. I hope somebody can give me some sort of advise. I started tot use the iching last winter. After using soms websites i got to know the website of James de Korne, www.jamesdekorne.com. He states the iching is about getting enlightend, something i've been interessted in because i've been suffering from depressions from years and the regular treatments don't work for me. So i started with this website which uses different translations. I meditated a lot ( i've done that before) and restrained myself, all guided by iching. It was quite difficult but i noticed a chance within myself, positive. After a periode of time, i was not getting further and iching said i could stop with 'the work' because i had to accumulate more strenght. At that time i could, because of working so intense with iching, feel in my body of something was good to do or not. After a week i restarted 'my programme' because i was getting depressed again. But now without iching but by my own feelings of whatever was right or wrong to do in my body. James deKorne says, after Jung, that 'the Self' communicates through iching. I had the idea that because of all that meditation i had made a connection. After some time it (meditation and restraining) was getting so hard that i stopped. Immediately i felt some sort of headache and some kind of unpleasant energy in my body so i went on. I stopped and kept on starting. After a few weeks i stopped totally. And that's where i'm now. I have almost all the time a not so nice feeling in my head, feet and body. And of course, the depression came back. That i understand, but that 'negative vibe' is a bad surprise. Although i knew it was risky at the beginning..i wanted to try it anyway..So, is there anybody who can say something about my situation? I'm already glad i can share this,Greetings Anne

 

[Trojina]

Hello everybody,I have a strange andere not so nice story. My motherlanguage is not english.. I hope somebody can give me some sort of advise. I started tot use the iching last winter. After using soms websites i got to know the website of James de Korne, www.jamesdekorne.com. He states the iching is about getting enlightend, something i've been interessted in because i've been suffering from depressions from years and the regular treatments don't work for me.

Seeking enlightenment isn't a cure for depression any more than seeking for enlightenment is a cure for migraine or ingrown toenails. What is more enlightenment is not something you can just go and get by doing X/Y/Z. You know you can try really hard, it won't make you enlightened. If you are depressed you just need to feel better. Sainthood can come later.

Also why is everyone in SR especially continually saying they use James de Korne website ? What is it ? A collection of commentaries ? I'm not downloading it to look, think I saw it once, just a collection of various commentaries. I do wonder why people keep going to that for old commentaries when they could for a start use Hilary's book I'm sure would assist them far more
https://www.amazon.com/Ching-Walkin...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QTHDD2QYMXJBYK69SHTY

So i started with this website which uses different translations. I meditated a lot ( i've done that before) and restrained myself, all guided by iching.

Hmm well I think if you are depressed then meditating a lot is not the thing to do at all. Indeed it can make it far worse. I don't know why exactly but I think when the mind needs anchoring, grounding, too much meditation and focus on 'enlightenment' can be unhealthy. Especially if that focus is all to do with self denial and ego bashing and that whole caboodle. The last thing a depressed person needs is telling they have to quash their egos and restrain this and restrain that...

Also I am highly doubtful that the 'restraining' you have been doing is something the text of the I Ching has actually told you and I am highly suspicious that you are relying on some commentary or other that repeatedly tells you to 'quash your ego' or ignore your 'lower selves' and so on. These are not the I Ching they are people's comments on it which are based on their own philosophy of the world.

It was quite difficult but i noticed a chance within myself, positive. After a periode of time, i was not getting further and iching said i could stop with 'the work' because i had to accumulate more strenght

.

Did it ? You seem worrying clear about what the I Ching did and didn't say and I wonder if you misinterpreted by relying on bits of commentary that are heavily weighted to advice 'restraint' on pretty much everything ?

At that time i could, because of working so intense with iching, feel in my body of something was good to do or not. After a week i restarted 'my programme' because i was getting depressed again. But now without iching but by my own feelings of whatever was right or wrong to do in my body. James deKorne says, after Jung, that 'the Self' communicates through iching.

People vary a great deal in what they think communicates through the I Ching. There isn't anyone who can claim they know for sure at all so you need to think it through for yourself.

I had the idea that because of all that meditation i had made a connection. After some time it (meditation and restraining) was getting so hard that i stopped. Immediately i felt some sort of headache and some kind of unpleasant energy in my body so i went on. I stopped and kept on starting.

You needed to stop and go for a walk/run/cycle ride/chat/coffee...anything but excessive meditating and misunderstanding excessive Yi readings.

After a few weeks i stopped totally. And that's where i'm now. I have almost all the time a not so nice feeling in my head, feet and body. And of course, the depression came back. That i understand, but that 'negative vibe' is a bad surprise. Although i knew it was risky at the beginning..i wanted to try it anyway..So, is there anybody who can say something about my situation? I'm already glad i can share this,Greetings Anne

Well it sounds like you went to James de Korne's website, swallowed a lot of commentary, led yourself up the garden path, meditated too much and de-stabilised yourself. Probably many have done that before including me. Well I haven't used de Korne's website but I have used bad/inadequate commentaries.

I think it's good you have left it all alone for now. If you want to use the I Ching again at some point perhaps you could do the free course here or the Foundations Course in CC or at least get Hilary's book for some sane commentary. You could also post your readings in Shared readings to get more diverse views on what your readings were saying perhaps.

 

[moss elk]

James de Korne website ? What is it ?

A site where he puts several translations on the same page. (Wilhelm, Legge, Carol Anthony, Karcher, and more) And then he puts his own commentary. Lots of his own commentary, and lots of other peoples commentary. So much commentary that he runs off into la la land, and often doesn't understand what he is trying to explain. I discourage people at every opportunity from reading his commentary, because he interjects everything through his own lense of Gnosticism, New agey-wish wash, oversexed Jungianism, you name it. His main page reveals him to be into psychedelics. It's almost as if he is trying to 'prove' gnosticism principles, equating concepts with the Yi.
Many people on the web who don't own books find his site first. He does however have Legge and Wilhelm at the top of the list, so at least there, he showed some good judgement.

If you are reading this James, I apologize for the harshness, but your editor needs an editor.

 

[Trojina]

Had a look at hexagram 2 there, lots of stuff. Overall in terms of what newbies in SR, bring here from it though mainly seems to be confusion. Is there no forum on his site...will go and look

This confuses me, copied from the home page there

Although the original Chinese text has been in the public domain for more than three-thousand years, the present manuscript (the fruit of over thirty years of intense study) is currently un-publishable because most of the English translations and paraphrases (included herein solely for purposes of scholarly comparison) remain under copyright.

which 'present manuscript' ? Does he mean the information on his website ?

The editor offers this, his personal study-guide, freely to those who wish to use and annotate it for their private, not-for-profit edification. This document is not for publication or sale: it is a personal workbook for students of the oracle to use and share with their peers.

Effectively he has published it hasn't he ? Or not ? I don't know much about copyright laws.

What seems odd to me is where people in SR will say "I got this from James de Korne's website" without saying who the actual author is of their quote.

 

[Anne333]

Thank you guys for your quick replies and commentary! I've been thinking about this stuff, enlightment, spirituality and so on for more than ten years so i have a real painful fall right now. I try to deal with my depression, that's the most important thing for now, with kind regards Anne

 

[Freedda]

Anne, the Buddha said of his teachings that they are like a boat to carry you to a far shore, but he never intended that you should carry the boat around on you back as a burden. While mediation and the I Ching can be aids in our spiritual growth, they are just tools, and if they are not working, you need to look for tools that will work.

I'd suggest then that you may need to look to other tools to deal with your depression. I am not qualified to give medical advice, but I have suffered with depression at times in my life, so I know how debilitating and all-consuming it can be. Speaking of my own experience, I found that a counselor and antidepressants both were invaluable -- for a time -- in getting past my depression. This is not an either-or situation: these just allowed me get past an all-consuming state, to be open enough to what mediation and the Yi have to offer.

Best, David.

 

[slowcheetah]

I'm not sure if I should start another thread for this.I speak spanish. There is also a huge I ching community in spanish online. Anyways, they have this MASSIVE encyclopedia with information about the I Ching. It's a compilation of information by every author the compilator could gather, from texts and interpretations to explanations about the interactions of the lines and literal translations from the chinese texts, making it about 100 pages per hexagram. At first I just used that text when I got confused. Then again I was learning (I still am) and I very often got confused, so I started using it a lot and it became some kind of obsession. Not so very long ago I noticed that I had created myself this illusion where the more I "studied", the better I'd do to my life. And it turns out you can know by heart what every line means, or follow the meditation recipe closely, or spend the whole night pondering a reading and that does not mean anything is changing in your life. Marta Ortiz says the Book is like a book of pictures. I sort of agree. In my own experience, it is like when you don't know about a certain topic, and you go to the local library. You say to the librarian "I found this bug, what is it?" and the librarian says "perhaps it is a spider" and gives you a book about spiders. They may tell you if the spider is poisonous or if it belongs to the wild but wether it bites you or you set it free depends entirely on you.I think I understand your feeling, because well, a lot of us come to the I Ching looking for help at first. And I think that a lot of us had the "addicted" stage too but anyways, if you feel depressed and think the I ching can help, it can, it's just not a book of instructions more than an aid.

 

[rosada]

If I understand you correctly I think you are saying that you suffer from depression and that after using conventional methods which did not help you, you turned to the I Ching in hopes it would alleviate your condition. It seems that it did help for a bit but you think you over did the study and meditation so you gave it up but now the depression has returned. You are wanting to take up the study of the I Ching again because it did seem to help with the depression but you don't want to reactivate the unpleasant sensations you were feeling, so you are asking if any of us have ideas that might help.

Well, from my own experience with depression I think there are more effective ways of dealing with it than study and meditation. Listening to music that is wholesome with uplifting lyrics would be a good place to start. Physical exercise is also a way to activate sluggish chi.

As to whether you should resume your study I think you need to be very disciplined about your approach and be neither too superficial nor try to dig too deeply. The I Ching warns against asking more questions without contemplating and thoroughly understanding the answers we've already received.. Hexagram 3 and hexagram 4 particularly explain that we are given guidance one step at a time and that we need to put what we think we've been told into action to demonstrate our understanding before we ask for more information. Hexagram 27. Nourishment followed by hexagram 28. Collapse is another example of the I Ching saying you can't just take in, take in, take in - you have to do something with the information or you brain will shut down.

If the I Ching isn't making you feel strong right now you might benefit from giving it a complete rest while you take up another metaphysical study - like tarot cards for example

Best wishes,
rosada

 

[bradhogg]

What's the problem? Why you are leaving?

 

[Anne333]

Thank you David, Slowcheetah, Rosada,

I feel understood (the addict stage... : )) I'll now follow the regular road with medication, physical exercise, etc..

 

[veavea]

I think James de korne created his own personal yi workbook many years ago made up of his own notes and commentaries from the various translations he owns, plus quotes that he thinks are relevant, and stuck it on the web in case anyone else finds it useful. I don't think anyone can fairly criticise him for that! I find it quite useful to be able to see a number of commentaries side by side but I don't think it would be my first port of call when struggling with depression or seeking enlightenment- too much thinking. Meditation can also exacerbate depression, which seems counterintuitive but can be a side effect of the process if you're not supported. Seeking support in the shape of a therapist or group might be more helpful?

 

[moss elk]

I don't think anyone can fairly criticise him for that!*

I do, and did.
The criticism is that he puts no disclaimer about his own commentary. Instead, he uses an authoritative Editor moniker. When I read through his comments, I can see that he misunderstands lines often. His 'workbook' is a work in progress. Good for him working on it, but as it is presented, I think it should remain on his desk for more study.

 

[Freedda]

... When I read through his comments, I can see that he misunderstands lines often ....

I took a quick look at his web site and didn't find it useful -- for me. Besides Wilhelm, these are not translations I am familiar with or use. Also, I wonder if some of the commentaries aren't complete, but only snippets?

But as to misunderstanding the lines? Moss Elk, i am curious, can you point to a few instances of this?

Best, David.

 

[moss elk]

No, I'm sorry.
I am not his editor.
Read his commentaries for yourself.

 

[tacrab]

Copyright is copyright, besides. In the USA, "fair use" is allowed, e.g., a paragraph or two of an article or book, but not wholesale copying of someone else's work.

 

[moss elk]

Ok, fine.
Here is some of his rubbish.

for hexagram 37 line 5 he writes:
"Editor:*This line can be problematic and is occasionally received under less than lucid circumstances. The*"influence of the king"*can be interpreted psychologically as the action of the Self in the inner dimensions and hence a reassurance that things are going as they should, even if they don't appear that way to our limited viewpoint in Spacetime."


This is not what 37.5 is about.
And, this is typical of how he writes.
(besides the whole copyright thing.)
See why I try to steer people away from his commentary?
'This line can be Problematic...' oh brother, it is a very simple line.