First post: Relationship Question a little confused

[moegx]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and I sure am glad I found this forum. I'm sort of new to the I Ching having only been using it for about two years on an off. I threw the coins and asked.

Will Mary and I have a relationship in 2004 and my answer was hex 13 no changing lines and was a little confused.

I then asked What are you trying to tell me? And received 34.6 changing to 14.

I would appreciate any help in trying to interpret this. Thanks in advance and I?m glad to be a part of the community!

Moe

 

[soshin]

Dear Moe,

I want to extend warmest welcome greetings to you.

Straight to the answers: 13, I think is quite a favorable hexagram to get in an question regarding some kind of union to another. Normally not exactly the sexual form, but more the friendship. 13 unmoved speaks - especially following the Wilhelm translation - of meeting a person in the fields, visible to all (so no real partnership including sexuality would be good if one wants to stay in touch with the time).

Stephen Karcher in his absolutely stunning new translation "Total I Ching, Myths for Change" relativizes this in saying: "Harmonizing People means moving (together) toward the countryside." and says about this movement: "...the spring festival and sacrifices that united all after the winter isolation through joy, music, wine and sexual contact."

As for 34.6 changing to 14... The changing line speaks of the ram who butts the hedge and cant pull back or push through. But this will not last. 14 means a great possession who may very well be him. But you will have to "sit there to go through the painful analysis of your mistakes, and in doing this, the Way will open of itself" (Karcher)

The core hexagram, 43, seems to say that something has to be thrown out resolutely which stands in the way. What this could be only you can know.

All in all the relationship (maybe not with the sexual part the most important one) is backed by the Yi as far as I read it.

I just put together the pieces I have before me and can connect with. Many of the people here are much more experienced than me, so please wait for the other's replies, too.

Namaste,

Soshin

 

[soshin]

Errata:

"14 means a ´great possession which may very well be HER" of course. Sorry.

Soshin

 

[moegx]

Hi Soshin, thanks so much for your quick reply. Any information is welcome and if everyone is as helpful as you are this should be quite a learning experience. I have two books by Stephen Karcher (Total I Ching and I Ching: The classic Chinese oracle of change) plus Wilhelm. Its gets a little confusing when you try using to many books and they seem to go off in different directions. So any help in trying to understand the I Ching is appreciated.

Thanks
Moe

 

[gene]

Moegx

I think Soshin gave you a very good answer. Thirteen has more to do with a universal friendship than an exclusive partnership. However, that is where partnerships can sometimes be created, in an atmosphere of mutual harmony.

In hexagram 34.6 the goat has learned its lesson. One's development depends on breaking through obstacles. Perhaps over the next year you two will break through obstacles and come to a greater understanding of each other.

Gene

 

[dobro p]

"Will Mary and I have a relationship in 2004 and my answer was hex 13 no changing lines..."

It talks about getting together with her, yeah - letting your hair down, free time and weekends and getting away from the grind - a time of growth and attainment. You can move into this relationship advantageously and carry out what you think is right here.

"I then asked What are you trying to tell me? And received 34.6 changing to 14."

(grin) It's telling you you're stuck. In this case, cuz you don't understand. In this case, cuz you don't understand that what it's trying to tell you is Hex 13.

 

[moegx]

So hex 13 is telling me it?s ok to ahead and to ignore 34.6 to 14? What about the nuclear hexagram of 13 hex 44 Gou? I don?t know much about nuclear hexagrams and how does that play a part in conjunction with 13.

Thanks
Moe

 

[dobro p]

You can safely ignore nuclear hexagrams in the initial question/response. Nuclear hexagrams are for people who aren't satisfied with the obvious message and they want overtones and subtleties of flavor and they want to go deeper. But for the most part, the initial response (in your case, Hex 13) is what you need to focus on. 34/6 wasn't about the girl or your relationship with her. 34.6 was about how you were relating to the oracle itself.

 

[gene]

Hi Moegx

The nuclear hexagram is about coupling. Within hexagram 13 there is the potential for a sexual relationship to develop, but it remains potential til the friendship has matured. The trigrams of the nuclear hexagram are sun, (penetration), and chien, (unlimited potential power) Wind, (Sun) does not immediately penetrate though, it is done through ceaseless activity, (as long as it is a productive kind of activity)

As far as 13 goes, Master Ni says that when full yang, (upper trigram) seeks a match, and that match is with Li, (the middle daughter), there is a great love potential. I think, just let it develop.

Gene

 

[moegx]

Since hexagram 13 seems to deal with friendship, I asked if the relationship would become sexual and received hexagram #14 no changing lines. In Stephen Karcher's book Total I Ching he pairs both hexagrams 13 & 14 together. Is it unusual to get paired hexagrams when asking questions like this? And just what the heck is this all trying to tell me. The more questions I ask the more puzzling this seems. Any help is welcome.

Moegx

 

[martin]

Hi Moegx,

Because you received both 13 and 14 without changing lines it seems to me that the I Ching prefers to give you some ideas to ponder instead of direct answers about what will happen.

It's not uncommon for an oracle to give an indirect - somewhat evasive - answer.
This may be a bit irritating

because we want to know what will happen!

But, well ...

 

[moegx]

Martin, thanks for the reply. When it comes to this subject it seems that evasive answers are all that I get. I?m not to sure how to interpret a static hexagram, but Alfred Huang said in The Complete I Ching when there is no moving line, you need only consult the name, symbol and decision of the gua? Well I guess it's like you said the I Ching is giving me ideas to ponder instead of direct answers.

Moegx

 

[candid]

Hi Moegx, and welcome.

I'm kinda curious, are you possessive toward this woman by chance?

 

[soshin]

Dear Moe,

Hope I have enough carefully considered what I write now, so please do not take it too serious, but...

You have gotten 13 unchanged and 34.6 to 14. When you asked again, you got 14 unchanged.

I am IMHO, and without wanting to sound disrespectful towards Dobro, not whith him when he said about your second answer: "It's telling you you're stuck. In this case, cuz you don't understand. In this case, cuz you don't understand that what it's trying to tell you is Hex 13."

I got 14 on two ocassions recently ( i.e. over the last six months or so), and it always simply meant what the first both words say, a "Great Possession". Someone who is one you can trust on, someone who belongs to you, perhaps even someone to whom you are acting possessive (although I did not got such answer meaning that for me, but for others).

And, it is the outcome of your second question, and is the neighbor of 13, the unchanged answer of your first one.

So I would say that the answers are highly interesting. Maybe it is trying you to tell: You should have a relationship with her (at least at the beginning - at very least), which grounds on friendship, and not on romantic love. You butt yourself in the hedge if you do not act according to this, and the outcome would be possessiveness or to possess her, but loosing her by possessing her (too early?).

Just a thought.

Namaste,

Soshin

 

[moegx]

Hi Candid , to answer your question I never really thought about it until know but maybe I am. I meet her thru work and found her rather interesting and asked the I Ching for advice on a relationship with her. I?m curious as to why you ask

Thanks
Moegx

 

[candid]

Hi Moegx, it was a more from the gut question than based on sound reasoning, but part of reasoning was just the progression of your questions and answers.

1. Will Mary and I have a relationship in 2004?
(Answer: 13 - Yes, you can have a relationship, but not based on your personal interests.)

2. What are you (Yi) trying to tell me (about 13)?
(Answer: 36.6 - You are powerful, but must remember that true power is based on what is right - not on what is right only to serve your interests. In other words, do not violate her, do not impose upon her ?established order.? Persisting in this leads to entanglement.

Since question 2 is about question 1, both of these questions relate to 14: Possession.

So it seems natural to question whether your interest is for her, or whether you simply want to have her as your possession.

Do understand that I?m casting no moral judgments here; that?s hardly my place.

 

[candid]

I really need a typist.

36.6 should read 34.6

 

[gene]

Moegx

I have to agree with Candid. The answer is there in Hexagram 13, but it may not be exactly what you want to hear. I think your real question is not so much, can I have a relationship with her, but how do I have one. In that case you are going to have to relax a little bit and let it be. Either she is interested or she is not, and all you can do is be there as a friend, allowing her to lead just a little bit. If you push it, you will be like the goat who gets his horns entangled. If you let it be, then the potential is there for a friendship, #13, that may lead to a relationship later on. You will likely have to let your own desires take the back seat for a while.

Gene

 

[moegx]

Hi Candid , thanks for the quick response. Actually there where three questions that I asked
1. Will Mary and I have a relationship in 2004? Answer 13

2. What are you trying to tell me? 34.6 changing to 14

Then Soshin posted 13, I think is quite a favorable hexagram to get in a question regarding some kind of union to another. Normally not exactly the sexual form, but more the friendship. Then I asked my third question about five days later.

3. I asked if the relationship would become sexual. Answer 14

So I ended up getting 14 in answer two and 14 in answer three. As far as being possessive about her, I don?t know if I want to think of her as a possession. I am attracted to her and find her a very fun and interesting person.

Thanks
Moegx

 

[RindaR]

Moe,

Would you mind a woman's perspective on this question?

I think the others' questions about a possible sense of posessiveness procede naturally from the hexagram texts themselves. Yi was speaking to you, so you will know somewhere in your heart whether or not the core was or was not an admonishment, and if so, whether or not you are fully respecting her right to make choices about relationship distance.

Each of you has a right to offer to move closer, and each of you has a right to be still or to move a little farther away or to leave altogether. This is often a kind of fluid dance-an interweaving of approach, evaluation of how one feels, and a decision as to the next step one takes.

It is difficult to determine intensity of feeling through this media, and so with some trepidation I offer that it has seemed difficult for you to "hear" both what has been suggested by Yi and by those who have taken the time to try to help you...

This is a rather public place and perhaps that has made things more difficult, or perhaps this has just been a really knotty problem for you with intense feelings tied in with it.

To borrow from another recent thread- life itself, along with this particular situation is not a static black and white situation, it is fluid and moves daily along with the other influences in both your lives.

You can appreciate/sip a handful of water at the side of the stream and follow it dancing into the meadows to see if it grows into a lake where you might bathe, and you can't ever catch it or truly make it yours.

 

[candid]

The illusive butterfly of love, Rinda? REALLY appreciate your comments. A clumsy man can do no such justice to the matter. But we do try. (grin)

Moegx, sorry for my confusion. I do these things on the fly usually and am sometimes careless in details.

But you just reminded me of something I left out about the possessive possibility:

Question 3 - "I asked if the relationship would become sexual. Answer 14 (Possession)

"I am attracted to her and find her a very fun and interesting person."

Who could blame you for being attracted? Maybe she will be interested in having sex with you too.

As for a relationship, Yi points to the man to assume responsibility, and he is to voluntarily defer to the woman, putting her interests first. This motivates her to follow him.

I appreciate you staying with this thread. Imo, it takes courage to have yourself dissected this way. Have done it here myself and it can be pretty humbling.

 

[moegx]

I?d like to thank Soshin, Gene, Dobro, Martin, Candid and Rinda for all there input and advice on the questions that I asked. This has been a learning experience and a lot of fun trying to solve the riddle the I Ching has given me.

Thanks
Moegx

 

[candid]

My thanks to you as well, Moegx.

 

[RindaR]

Moe, 'tis the giver that is thankful. Thank you for listening - that's a true gift.


Rinda