Clarity,
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Hi Gmulii
Isnt that one if the limits though of how 5E views things.It is the lack of rationality in the suggestion that one could mix water with earth but not fire with water. Of course one can mix fire with water, it produces steam. Perhaps you were thinking to big and thinking of lots of water and a little fire. But remeber that fire is also heat, it doesnt have to be a flame.
You can go through all of the combinations and come up with something. The poit is was making was two fold. The first that the mix of water and earth is a mix and not anither factor and if we apply that concept to earth, of mixing, even if we dont necessarily mix every element with every other element, that mix that is used to "create" the element of wet earth demostrate that there is no coherent, logical and rationality to the concept.
So if we are going to have a late summer let us also have a late spring, winter and autumn.
If we remove our limitations as to what we "think" the elements are, and being "elemental" would also have to include just about everying that we are able to comprehend, whether thaat is by eyes, ears, microscope, telescope, if it is elemental and can be comprehended then I thing that we are going to see a lot more "fire".
Firstly it is not about quantity in one particualr form. But in all the forms that say Fire might take, including heat. Given that the dirving force of life on Earth, a large lump of earth, is dependent on a large ball of incredibly hot and flaming matter, I think there is plenty of fire. The Earth is 2/3rds water, so plenty of water, and surrounded by lots of air, I think the elements are well covered.
But you havent addressed how and why there are 5. The original concept was 4 elements with a "something" at the centre to coneect them all. That makes it completely different to the other 4. You havet attempted an explanation of how the progression with a 5th at the centre cahnged to one where the 5th became a part equal to the rest.
I did say that to be coherent it would have to be applicable to all the elements. I will leave that up to you to work out. You may, in fact will have to go beyind the gross" physical" ideas of the elements. As Chinese Medicine associates Metal with the lungs it amy be easier to think of air rather than metal. Metal is of course a human construct so it is likely that somewhere along the way it got misinterpreted. In terms of a purely physical metal might be considerd part of the Earth and that would really be confusing everyone.
So down to basics. How and why did it transform from 5th at the centre to a 5 phases construction. Why are we not apply the same rules and concepts as we do to one thing to the rest and maintain a coherency.
Good luck my freind. Ther have been some, with incridible amounts of experience in the pratical world of Medicine, trying for many years to show a way and they all had to give up in the end.
Ther eisnt an argument that I dont think I havent heard in terms of 5E, stems and branches. I think that only if there is some illumination in terms of the Yi and the Trigrams would there be a way of rationalising in a coherent and logical way the existence of 5E as something of any validity.
As no one has bee able to do that I suspect that maybe it is even worse than I thought and the hope that I had that there might be some underlying principles in 5E and that would enable a better understanding of things, including Chinese Medicine, may well be dashed once and for all.
If the 5E are so basic and fundamental I would have expected someone to be able to come along with decent, detailed reasoning and arguments as to why 5E made sense and it would be easy for them to do that. I thought that the limits of Chinese Medicine being a specific discipline were what was "hiding " the underlying truths of 5E and that those that had a different and wider perspective would find it easy to explain the underlying coherent rationality of 5E and how it transfromed from the 5th at the centre connecting the others into a system where the 5th becomes an equal part of the initial 4.
All the best
Dave
Isnt that one if the limits though of how 5E views things.It is the lack of rationality in the suggestion that one could mix water with earth but not fire with water. Of course one can mix fire with water, it produces steam. Perhaps you were thinking to big and thinking of lots of water and a little fire. But remeber that fire is also heat, it doesnt have to be a flame.
You can go through all of the combinations and come up with something. The poit is was making was two fold. The first that the mix of water and earth is a mix and not anither factor and if we apply that concept to earth, of mixing, even if we dont necessarily mix every element with every other element, that mix that is used to "create" the element of wet earth demostrate that there is no coherent, logical and rationality to the concept.
So if we are going to have a late summer let us also have a late spring, winter and autumn.
If we remove our limitations as to what we "think" the elements are, and being "elemental" would also have to include just about everying that we are able to comprehend, whether thaat is by eyes, ears, microscope, telescope, if it is elemental and can be comprehended then I thing that we are going to see a lot more "fire".
Firstly it is not about quantity in one particualr form. But in all the forms that say Fire might take, including heat. Given that the dirving force of life on Earth, a large lump of earth, is dependent on a large ball of incredibly hot and flaming matter, I think there is plenty of fire. The Earth is 2/3rds water, so plenty of water, and surrounded by lots of air, I think the elements are well covered.
But you havent addressed how and why there are 5. The original concept was 4 elements with a "something" at the centre to coneect them all. That makes it completely different to the other 4. You havet attempted an explanation of how the progression with a 5th at the centre cahnged to one where the 5th became a part equal to the rest.
I did say that to be coherent it would have to be applicable to all the elements. I will leave that up to you to work out. You may, in fact will have to go beyind the gross" physical" ideas of the elements. As Chinese Medicine associates Metal with the lungs it amy be easier to think of air rather than metal. Metal is of course a human construct so it is likely that somewhere along the way it got misinterpreted. In terms of a purely physical metal might be considerd part of the Earth and that would really be confusing everyone.
So down to basics. How and why did it transform from 5th at the centre to a 5 phases construction. Why are we not apply the same rules and concepts as we do to one thing to the rest and maintain a coherency.
Good luck my freind. Ther have been some, with incridible amounts of experience in the pratical world of Medicine, trying for many years to show a way and they all had to give up in the end.
Ther eisnt an argument that I dont think I havent heard in terms of 5E, stems and branches. I think that only if there is some illumination in terms of the Yi and the Trigrams would there be a way of rationalising in a coherent and logical way the existence of 5E as something of any validity.
As no one has bee able to do that I suspect that maybe it is even worse than I thought and the hope that I had that there might be some underlying principles in 5E and that would enable a better understanding of things, including Chinese Medicine, may well be dashed once and for all.
If the 5E are so basic and fundamental I would have expected someone to be able to come along with decent, detailed reasoning and arguments as to why 5E made sense and it would be easy for them to do that. I thought that the limits of Chinese Medicine being a specific discipline were what was "hiding " the underlying truths of 5E and that those that had a different and wider perspective would find it easy to explain the underlying coherent rationality of 5E and how it transfromed from the 5th at the centre connecting the others into a system where the 5th becomes an equal part of the initial 4.
All the best
Dave