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'flat-earthers' = hex 4.4

moss elk

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Here is an interesting video where three
flat-earthers have a conversation with three scientists. (yes, in the 21st century, there are people who still believe this.)

What the flat-earthers appear to have in common is religious indoctrination occupying the parts of grey matter where intelligence resides in the average person, and average animal.
No amount of proof can convince them away from what they want to believe.

The funniest thing to me about these disturbing people is that when you ask,
"what happens when someone sails past the edge of the earth?"
flat earthers reply, "the pac-man effect"
(for those of you who didn't grow up with video games, that means that once the edge of the world is reached, one is teleported to appear on the other side.)


 
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moss elk

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Point of clarification - the ancient Chinese who wrote the Yi also believed in a kind of flat-earth, but theirs was a square 'disk' (not a round one), sort of like a tray or platter, with a round or globe-like heaven about it. So if we think they were wise with regards to the Yi, why would we then question their 'square disk' version of the Earth?

You've lumped the Yi authors in with whoever modeled the disk on the turle...etc
Not the same 'they', I think.
So, that may be an error of attribution and classification.

Hex 20 teaches us to go and observe before deciding our doctrines. That is the opposite of what flat earthers do, they start with a doctrine and try to cram reality into it.
 
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moss elk

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Right after the lesson in gravity. :)
The fool will experience being
flat as a pancake.
And that would make him a
flat-flat-earther.
If only the cliff were inside his apartment,
that would make him
a flat-flat-flat-earther.
 
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svenrus

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Don't know why, but I has allways seen hex. 4 in this card.

(Besides that I can't agree that tarot has anything to do with the I)
 
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svenrus

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#14 Freedda, It's OK. I were just trying to be funny and my sense for humor is known to be odd
 
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svenrus

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Fuxi is said to have seen the signs on the shield of 'the big turtle', loosely expressed here. A turtle is known to move very slowly. This shield could be an expression for the stary sky, slowly moving showing it's 'Signs'. An idea I got years ago. Just a thought.....
 

moss elk

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Moss Elk, looking back at your original post you titled it
'flat-earthers' = hex 4.4
I assume that you selected the line because you felt it most closely matches what you were seeing with the flat-earthers in this video, yes?

Bingo.
Brads 4.4 translation:
Afflicted by ignorance A shame
 
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svenrus

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The Night Sky with it's Stars are very slowly moving. The ancients (Fuxi) could have expressed this observation as "The Signs/Patterns on the Great Tortoise". Slowly like the Tortoise and Big because the vast Night Sky are Big.
and I'm ready to commit that my joke with the tarot card could be misplaced in context of this thread.
PS: That I can't see a connection between tarot and I Ching dosn't mean that Bradford can't ie literary I'll agree in a connection but not until I clearly see/understand such one.....
 
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svenrus

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Thank You. I haven't noticed Bradfords mention on that.
I think the Idea of the big tortoise/Night Sky etc. were my own thought... But I could have seen it somewere in one of those (too many) books I've read along the way... I think we two are around the same age (sorry if You are a young man) and You had probably met this phenomena that You occasionally read something (anything) and it strikes You like "Oh - so there it is that I got it from" - and maybe/maybe not I've seen this "Fuxi connection" somewere ??? But whether or whether not I find the Idea faschinating
 

my_key

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Oh wait, I get it now - the Discworld (flat-earth), being carried on the back of of the Star Turtle, A'Tuin .... now it all makes sense to me!

Don't forget the elephants!!!!!
The flat Earth (Discworld) is supported by 4 elephants standing on the Turtles back / Shell. The flat earth is riding the 4 elephants.

Riding the Elephant = Hexagram 16 according to Karcher (also Providing for). Wilhelm gives Enthusiasm, Blofeld translates as Repose, Hatcher as Readiness, LiSe as Weaving Images and Huang as Delight.

The trigrams of Hex 16 talk of Thunder coming out of the Earth. in a spontaneous way. The commentary says something like - In alignment with this The Ancient Kings composed music to honour virtue and merit and offered it all up to God to emulate the Ancients.

Enjoy.
 
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rosada

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Perhaps Brad equates Youthful Folly with the Hermit, the wise old soul of the Tarot, because hexagram 4 reads as if it is not a fool who is speaking to us but a wise old soul speaking to us about a fool. (“It is not I who seeks the young fool...”)
 

moss elk

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Brad equates Youthful Folly with the Hermit, the wise old soul of the Tarot, because hexagram 4 reads as if it is not a fool who is speaking to us but a wise old soul speaking to us about a fool.

Yeah, it looks like a combination of the Fool and the Hermit.

line 1- The Sage/Hermit is delivering a Fool from bondage.
line 2 - The Sage/Hermit is recognizing the women and young have some competancy and is allowing them to participate.
line 3 - This Fool has $_$ or ☆_☆ in her eyes.
line 4 - This Fool is really stuck in ignorance.
line 5 - This Young One has the right mind to learn.
line 6- The Sage/Hermit is angry enough to smite the Fool, and wise enough realize if the situation really calls for it.
 
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rosada

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Right!
My spin on it:

4.1 You can’t keep a fool safe at home forever. Eventually you have to just turn him loose and let him figure it out for himself.
4.2 Hopefully he’ll remember a few of the basics like be nice to your siblings and don’t make your mother mad. I’m counting on you, kid!
4.3 And keep away from wicked city women!!
4.4 Fool, “So wtf am I supposed to do now?”
4.5. Sage, “Persevere of course! :rofl:
4.6 “Well Young Fool, I could remove all the the women if you don’t think you can handle a little temptation....Just be patient till you grow up some then you’ll know what to do, okay? Meanwhile go on to hexagram 5 and learn how to Wait...”
 
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moss elk

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hmm, looking at 4,
I just noticed that in the
center/heart of the hex (lines 3 & 4)
__ __
__ __
we see a Real Idiot.

Just outside the center (2 & 5),
We see someone inexperienced,
but not a fool / Idiot.
__ __
_____
we see competance and the ability to learn.

At the 'edges' or outside, further from the center,
(lines 1 & 6)
_____
__ __
we see The Sage taking action,
both to discipline another!
and in both instances,
advised to consider the appropriateness and level of said disciplining. (line 1-"am I really liberating that one?" and line 6- " does this person need me to smack them?"

Interesting.
Looking at this pattern,
(the heart of 4 is an idiot, furthest from that realm of things is the Sage)
if we continue to extend it out beyond lines 1 & 6, (0 & 7, image & judgement anybody?)
maybe we find someone so wise that they are completely removed from the world of the fool, and of the need to subjugate/smite them, It makes me think that the highest sage wisdom is that of a Teacher, who can get through to the fool without touching them... "Oh, I have no intention of inviting foolishness to get near me, I won't seek him out, but I'll nourish his character if he gets close."
 
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Trojina

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The reading here is 4.4,



But the reading isn't 4.4 as there was no reading, ME did not ask Yi a question he just linked 4.4 to something he connected with it.


Therefore we cannot start interpreting 4.4 as if it was Yi's answer about flat earthers because then it's not Yi's answer but his decision what line to call it.

I think you already know this as you asked about it but people are going down the route of this being an answer from Yi which is a danger as it's not consulting Yi but handing out answers we assume we might get.

I mean we all do this as a discussion point but Rosada and others are maybe taking it as the actual answer.

There's a lot more to 4.4 than just being like flat earthers and we do find the most unexpected lines come up for different things. I think if you want to know what Yi's view of flat earthers is it's better to ask Yi than just provide the answer ourselves. I don't think it would be a great or useful question to put since you/we already know your/our view and the answer you get may well reflect on your own stance to them so I'd see it as 'playtime' question but some people seem to like questions about things that have no real application in their own lives which I don't understand.

What's happening here is picking a line to support an opinion which is fine as it goes but now people are talking as if 4.4 were the actual answer Yi gave and it wasn't. The danger there is making Yi a spokesperson for our views without even consulting it.


We know flat earthers are deluded, we don't need to prop that up by allocating 4.4 to it. Well actually we can, we often do pick a line to describe something but why are people calling it the reading. Moss elk already said it wasn't a reading
 
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Trojina

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Here's the conversation where it was clarified this is not a reading



Moss Elk, looking back at your original post you titled it

'flat-earthers' = hex 4.4

I assume that you selected the line because you felt it most closely matches what you were seeing with the flat-earthers in this video, yes? But however you came up with the connection, it made me think a bit more about Hex 4 and this line:
Bingo.
Brads 4.4 translation:
Afflicted by ignorance A shame
 

Trojina

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No, didn't really mean that it just seemed even though elm sauce (great name :rofl:) said it wasn't an actual reading people are generally responding as if 4.4 was the answer to a question when it actually wasn't.
 

my_key

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Yes, certainly true for Terry Pratchett's Discworld. But I don't think it's true for most flat-earther's Flat Earth model, sans-elephants.
Flat Earth is sans elephants and the joys they bring. Now that really is flat.
 

rosada

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We're over here in Open Space rather than Shared Readings so this seems to be an appropriate place to talk about how we think a hexagram discribes a situation even if we didn't get it in a reading. So, no I'm not looking at 4.4 as being an actual reading on Flat Earthers.

In fact, I was just talking about 4.4 and all the lines of that hexagram because I think you can get a greater understanding of a line when you consider the lines around it, where it's coming from, what it's leading to. In 4.4 the Young Fool is totally lost but why is he totally lost? I hypothsize that you can know that by looking at the previous lines. Lines 1-3 describe someone who is without experience (4.1) and has only the most basic understanding of a situation (4.2) and therefore may be easily influenced (4.3) and thus getting 4.4 means not just that a person is a fool but also that he is a fool because he is inexperienced and easily influenced - and therefore not to be written off as unreachable but rather to be treated with compassion (4.5) and certainly not punished but rather simply not to be exposed to bad influences (4.6).
 
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my_key

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We're over here in Open Space rather than Shared Readings so this seems to be an appropriate place to talk about how we think a hexagram discribes a situation even if we didn't get it in a reading. So, no I'm not looking at 4.4 as being an actual reading on Flat Earthers.

In fact, I was just talking about 4.4 and all the lines of that hexagram because I think you can get a greater understanding of a line when you consider the lines around it, where it's coming from, what it's leading to. In 4.4 the Young Fool is totally lost but why is he totally lost? I hypothsize that you can know that by looking at the previous lines. Lines 1-3 describe someone who is without experience (4.1) and has only the most basic understanding of a situation (4.2) and therefore may be easily influenced (4.3) and thus getting 4.4 means not just that a person is a fool but also that he is a fool because he is inexperienced and easily influenced - and therefore not to be written off as unreachable but rather to be treated with compassion (4.5) and certainly not punished but rather simply not to be exposed to bad influences (4.6).
Hi Rosada
I think there is a 'ladder element' too. Worthy of a few ramblings in a new thread in Exploring Divination rather than tucked away in the sweepings from a flat earth. When you start the ball rolling I'll meet you on the other side.

4.1 - tied in knots ...... favourable to show him the ropes
4.2 - find a new rope
4.3 - make sure it's a rope and not a snake
4.4 - now the rope has got into a real tangle
4.5 - realise you know nothing about ropes and knots and snakes and tangles
4.6 - don't use the rope as a whip either...... now how is it you make a rope?

....or maybe it's nothing like that at all.
 

moss elk

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Follow up,
Better late than never.

One of the Flat Earther's in the above video,
Shelly Lewis, is also an anti masker.

Here she is exhibiting 4.4 at a grocery store.

 

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