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Funny that Hill called her post Off topic...

confucius

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Though this text may seem adrift, all water is the same...

the master said : taken at there root, the wildest rivers are mere streams...

I will humbly back you up on the presentation...a thread needs to be fed...drifting too much will distance some people who may have wished to contribute but believe to be far from the home plate...it is not all to share...inviting a response is fortunately what we could expect with such a tool as this forum...

we have enough material to get inspired from in the pages concerning the Yi, which is, I believe, the essential reason that has brought us together...

Confucius' teachings and his conversations and exchanges with his disciples are recorded in the Lunyu or Analects, a collection that probably achieved something like its present form around the second century BCE. While Confucius believes that people live their lives within parameters firmly established by Heaven—which, often, for him means both a purposeful Supreme Being as well as ‘nature’ and its fixed cycles and patterns—he argues that men are responsible for their actions and especially for their treatment of others. We can do little or nothing to alter our fated span of existence but we determine what we accomplish and what we are remembered for.

Confucius represented his teachings as lessons transmitted from antiquity. He claimed that he was “a transmitter and not a maker” and that all he did reflected his “reliance on and love for the ancients.” (Lunyu 7.1) Confucius pointed especially to the precedents established during the height of the royal Zhou (roughly the first half of the first millennium, BCE). Such justifications for one's ideas may have already been conventional in Confucius' day. Certainly his claim that there were antique precedents for his ideology had a tremendous influence on subsequent thinkers many of whom imitated these gestures. But we should not regard the contents of the Analects as consisting of old ideas. Much of what Confucius taught appears to have been original to him and to have represented a radical departure from the ideas and practices of his day.

Confucius also claimed that he enjoyed a special and privileged relationship with Heaven and that, by the age of fifty, he had come to understand what Heaven had mandated for him and for mankind. (Lunyu 2.4). Confucius was also careful to instruct his followers that they should never neglect the offerings due Heaven. (Lunyu 3.13) Some scholars have seen a contradiction between Confucius' reverence for Heaven and what they believe to be his skepticism with regard to the existence of ‘the spirits.’ But the Analects passages that reveal Confucius's attitudes toward spiritual forces (Lunyu 3.12, 6.20, and 11.11) do not suggest that he was skeptical. Rather they show that Confucius revered and respected the spirits, thought that they should be worshipped with utmost sincerity, and taught that serving the spirits was a far more difficult and complicated matter than serving mere mortals.

Confucius' social philosophy largely revolves around the concept of ren, “compassion” or “loving others.” Cultivating or practicing such concern for others involved deprecating oneself. This meant being sure to avoid artful speech or an ingratiating manner that would create a false impression and lead to self-aggrandizement. (Lunyu 1.3) Those who have cultivated ren are, on the contrary, “simple in manner and slow of speech.” (Lunyu 13.27). For Confucius, such concern for others is demonstrated through the practice of forms of the Golden Rule: “What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others;” “Since you yourself desire standing then help others achieve it, since you yourself desire success then help others attain it.” (Lunyu 12.2, 6.30). He regards devotion to parents and older siblings as the most basic form of promoting the interests of others before one's own and teaches that such altruism can be accomplished only by those who have learned self-discipline.

Learning self-restraint involves studying and mastering li, the ritual forms and rules of propriety through which one expresses respect for superiors and enacts his role in society in such a way that he himself is worthy of respect and admiration. A concern for propriety should inform everything that one says and does:

Look at nothing in defiance of ritual, listen to nothing in defiance of ritual, speak of nothing in defiance or ritual, never stir hand or foot in defiance of ritual. (Lunyu 12.1)
Subjecting oneself to ritual does not, however, mean suppressing one's desires but instead learning how to reconcile one's own desires with the needs of one's family and community. Confucius and many of his followers teach that it is by experiencing desires that we learn the value of social strictures that make an ordered society possible (See Lunyu 2.4.). Nor does Confucius' emphasis on ritual mean that he was a punctilious ceremonialist who thought that the rites of worship and of social exchange had to be practiced correctly at all costs. Confucius taught, on the contrary, that if one did not possess a keen sense of the well-being and interests of others his ceremonial manners signified nothing. (Lunyu 3.3). Equally important was Confucius' insistence that the rites not be regarded as mere forms, but that they be practiced with complete devotion and sincerity. “He [i.e., Confucius] sacrificed to the dead as if they were present. He sacrificed to the spirits as if the spirits were present. The Master said, ‘I consider my not being present at the sacrifice as though there were no sacrifice.’” (Lunyu 3.12)

While ritual forms often have to do with the more narrow relations of family and clan, ren, however, is to be practiced broadly and informs one's interactions with all people. Confucius warns those in power that they should not oppress or take for granted even the lowliest of their subjects. “You may rob the Three Armies of their commander, but you cannot deprive the humblest peasant of his opinion.” (Lunyu 9.26) Confucius regards loving others as a calling and a mission for which one should be ready to die (Lunyu 15.9).
 

Trojina

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I've been called picky before, i guess I must be :mischief: but these days no one pays any regard to where they put posts, hence all the personal questions etc are in the discussion area and posts like the one above is in the friends area ?

I thought the idea was roughly when someone wants help with readings etc they go to friends area, when they have more general issues re philosophy and practise of divination they go to discussion area.

Anyway I guess no one really cares about this too much but what bought it to mind was I reckoned both areas of this forum are for talking and sharing with others who use the I Ching or who are interested. That is the whole point no ?

Hence this comment by Confucious, if I understand it correctly, leaves me baffled.



"..a thread needs to be fed...drifting too much will distance some people who may have wished to contribute but believe to be far from the home plate....it is not all to share...inviting a response is fortunately what we would expect with such a tool as this forum"


Sorry I don't understand ? What 'is not all to share' ? I thought everything was to share here ? Confucious you seem to be talking 'at' us not to us or with us. I guess thats what Chris does in a way so in my view you both act in the same way. If you can do it why not Chris ? You may say different things but act in the same way.
 

Trojina

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Ah maybe I should take that back as I see you have actually spoken to people on the 29 thread.
 

martin

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Apart from content and the question what is on topic and what is not (and where) - I do feel a very different quality in the contributions of Chris and Confucius.
Chris lectures, while with Confucius it's more like he is telling a story.
In general the one is not better or worse than the other, it depends on purpose. But I like the story telling approach better in this case. It's more open, more flexible, less domineering. I can let the stories sink in and I don't feel forced to believe this or that.
I also think that this approach is more in accord with the nature of the Yi.
 

confucius

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thank god for words...

"..a thread needs to be fed...drifting too much will distance some people who may have wished to contribute but believe to be far from the home plate....it is not all to share...inviting a response is fortunately what we would expect with such a tool as this forum"


Sorry I don't understand ? What 'is not all to share' ? I thought everything was to share here ? Confucious you seem to be talking 'at' us not to us or with us. I guess thats what Chris does in a way so in my view you both act in the same way. If you can do it why not Chris ? You may say different things but act in the same way.

...what a knot in such a knit...and we are using words, which are not pictograms...but, may I say, rather precise ideograms...a left to right mis-type said...it is not all to share rather than is it not all to share...

...as far as the rest is concerned...that a thread needing to be shared by not drifting too far from the point...so that people may not feel left out and refrain from commenting...

...that I would try to say that I believe Hill to be right about keeping tomatoes with tomatoes and Yi supplements with Yi supplements...so that the forum remains well threaded and joyfully usable...

...and one comes along to say that I am doing just the same as the one Hilary is patiently trying to re-align...

...please...do enlighten me, for I truly do not understand...
 

luz

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I thought the idea was roughly when someone wants help with readings etc they go to friends area, when they have more general issues re philosophy and practise of divination they go to discussion area.

Yes, although I'm not very picky I find it very disturbing that these rules are not being observed. :confused:

I also have an opinion about staying "on topic". I think that threads that are "alive" won't necessarily stay on topic all of the time. I don't think Confucius threads have to be focused exclusively on etymology. Since there is a thread for each hexagram, it is only natural that ideas about that hexagram will pop up and people will want to contribute those ideas. I know Chris does it in a systematic way, but I really don't see that he is being much different than he's always been or that he is hijacking threads any more than most of us do.
 
B

bruce_g

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Just a general observation: The more often someone expresses their thoughts, the more often and likely they will be criticized. This presents a dilemma to the individual (well, to most anyhoo), because to express thoughts freely is to be criticized frequently; the option is to lie quietly in the background where it is safe.

I’m not especially fond of being preached to or instructed unless I or someone else asks a question, but to me it’s better than nothing assertive or creative happening on the board. It is pretty awkward, though, when two people are asserting their own work exclusively, and are indifferent or offensive to anyone’s disagreement. Without exchange, this or any forum becomes flat, no matter how exactly the facts or perception as facts are presented.

Obviously, folks should observe forum protocol regarding where topics are posted.
 

confucius

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about bruce_g

I often look forward, and hope, to see comments from bruce_g...I believe they are reflected upon, coherent, and not necessarily formatted to be politically correct, but genuine...one of you is much in a forum...there are a few in this one, but I am glad you are there and invite more...

Fu Zi
 
J

jesed

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Hi Confucius

Just in case the comment could be useful

In the circle where I belong, it is said that Confucius' work has 2 parts: one, the most known, is the stage of life when he wanted to "educate" a superior soberaing, that follows his moral ideas, to solve the state of permanent warfare.

But he was disapointed on his task, and go to retirement. He went to the imperial archives (where he knew Lao Tze), and study Chou's archives.

From there, he rediscovered the Wen's lessons for meditation... and he practiced. While making meditation, he became a discipule of King Wen itself. When the Ten Wings say "The Master said", it is Confucius talking about Wen's lessons to him, and not a scholarship talking about Confucius's lessons.

So, the second part of his work (the comments about Chou's classics) has a diferent point of view than his first. And it would be a error (that had happened with high presence in neo-confucionism) to understand Confucius' comments on classics at the light of Confucius's previuos moral ideas.

Of course, moder scholars would deny this as truth adn history; most as legend or myth. But as you pointed out, myth has truly insight some times. Many of the people in the circle where I belong, had experience (due to follow what is called traditional meditation) to be teached by old Yi's Sages.

Of course, anyone is allowed to believe that this is not real experience but delusion.

Best wishes
 

Trojina

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Hi Confucious, yes I see earlier it was a typing error that led to confusion. You wrote "it is not all to share" when you meant "it is not all to share".

Like others have said I can't see why Chris posting his thoughts after yours is anymore 'off topic' than he would normally be deemed to be anywhere else. I mean he is still talking about the Yi Jing. So I don't get this tomatoes with tomatoes business. I mean if you carry on proliferating threads at the rate you have been we'll soon have nothing but tomatoes. :D (Isn't there a tomato festival in italy where people throw tomatoes for days on end....now if your're talking off topic thats waaaay off topic)

One thing has struck me and is bothering me. It seems to me your own prose towards us is very different in style and everything to the 'texts' you are writing re etymology etc etc. Are you quoting these or is it your own words ? It is not difficult for me to understand these instructional texts you write out, yet I find it hard to understand when you write personally, ie .."..one of you is much in a forum...there are a few in this one..." Eh ? Is this code ?

Maybe its clear you are quoting and I missed the reference, I don't know. It just sounds like words from a book, hence to me I'm not so keen as regardless of content a forums for exchange. Quotes here and there is okay, but not pages full, then one might as well read a book. If I'm wrong, sorry, ignore me, :footinmouth: basically i just want to know if what I'm reading is quoted.
 

luz

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Well, maybe you are missing the inflection ... :mischief:

JK! we all know what Trojan meant :D
 

martin

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Let's see ... All tomatoes are the same so we could as well go to Italy and throw them at eachother? :D
 

luz

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Tomatoes!? I much prefer them to to-mah-tos.. :p

Sorry, it's around lunch time here.. :eek:

That would be a good stress reliever.. throwing tomatoes at hijackers!!! :D Italians do know how to live better, don't they? :rolleyes:
 

Trojina

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LOL I think its time for me to give up, I meant Confucious meant to say "is it not all to share" rather than "it is not all to share" phew. But see this is the kind of miniscule misunderstanding that could have scholars a 1000 years from now scratching their heads.

Similar to how we might argue over say whether 25,2 is about not looking for a result when you're doing the work OR you don't need to do the work because its done already.

Or whether 3,6 means 'give up and go home' or 'stop sobbing and get on with it'.

In the distant future a scholar may ask "did this Confucious mean he wanted to share or not, to share or not to share, that is the question". I think I know the answer to that one, I think I'll take a break.

Theres definately a tomato festival somewhere, I think we should go.
 

confucius

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If I'm wrong, sorry, ignore me, basically i just want to know if what I'm reading is

They are not quotes, well, after I wrote them, they might...and respectfully, I will not ignore you if you are wrong...for it is I which was not clear enough...lets paraphrase...

it is not all to share...sharing is not everything...sharing is not complete...if all is a noun, then sharing is not everything...if not constructive...

all, is not the content

ex: it is not all to say I love you...you have do demonstrate it...Ha, thats the scoop, that is how I wish I could have formulated it...english is not supple enough...I invite any further corrections...

...and to answer a worthwhile question, my writing styles vary from day to night, room to room, and from one language to the next...even from content to content...I had initially proposed my self not to reply on comments if not Yi constructive...the off-topic thing struck me as confronting, for my wish, though interacting pleases me, was to stimulate Yi topics...like Hilary...

Last point before I reach the ten thousand character limit...I am presently loading some etymologies of Hexagram characters...as a few pointed out...the Tu an and Yao will follow...I will try not to drift too far from that objective...hoping others will enjoy and question our common goal...clarity.

Fu Zi
 

hilary

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It's all good. But like a wise person said, all this etymology stuff should be in 'divination discussion', and 'friends' area' is indeed for readings. But I've already moved one thread today, and now my arm aches... :)
 

Trojina

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Thankyou for answering me Confucious.
 

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