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martin

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I'll define my terms, too :). When I say 'thought', I mean any kind of animated mental activity, either intellectual or emotional or even sensation.

Yeah, no thought = throw your whole psyche out of the window. :)
 

dobro p

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To the tune of Dylan's 'Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You'

Throw my psyche out the window
Throw my body out there too
Throw sensations out the door
I don't need them anymore
Cuz right now I am consciousness of you
 

Trojina

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If we want to use words to communicate then its only natural we might ask one another to clarify how they are using words. This doesn't signify opposition. It signifies wanting a better understanding so that when we talk about something we are talking of the same thing.

. Its kind of worrying when thought becomes a bad thing. Without some kind of discrimination we would have to blindly accept all that was put before us.

The odd thing about this thread is there never was any opposition because nothing was ever put forward to oppose. All that was needed was a bit of further clarification if any discussion were to ensue. Discussion needs words - we can't just sit here and feel the vibe of not thinking lol

When I'm discussing something I use thinking, when I'm dreaming or meditating I'm thinking in a wholly different way or sometimes not thinking. Each and every one of us switches modes several times a day.
What I'm getting at is kinds of thinking are not something that some of us have and some of us don't as I felt LiSe was implying. We all think in rational/non rational modes all the time.

People see the word magic in so many different ways, with different connotations its quite understandable someone asks how we are using the word here.

As for the child/rabbit thing, I'm an adult, I don't aspire to being a child. Children may be innocent but lets not romantisise them as the the holders of all wisdom. They can be wise, they can also be raging egomaniacs when they don't get their way, lol.

I think in the rabbit story those who questioned definitions of words were meant to identify with the adults and the implication was those who wanted to be clear on terms were jus not 'getting it'. Well I think we are all equally capable of getting it - its just we are not mind readers.
 
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dobro p

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I don't think Heylise was romanticizing 'child's mind' (but you'll have to check with her to make sure) - I think she was just pointed out that Meng was approaching the whole thing with a different mindset (but you'll hve to check with meng to make sure). I mean, Meng himself said "The idea I've presented isn't complicated, it's just a way of seeing" so *he* knew what he was talking about, and didn't see why he should explain what he meant.

And I don't think she was criticizing rational approaches with tightly-defined terms, I think she was just arguing for making room for other approaches (but you'll have to check with her to make sure).

But anyway, what do *you* mean when you say 'magic'? For me, the primary meaning is 'magick' - Aleister Crowley stuff - maybe white, maybe black, but always looking to manipulate outcomes using analogous ritual. The reason I'd like to explore this is cuz of the possible connection with Yi consultation. Is using the Yi a form of magic the way I've defined it? I think the answer is - no, not really. It doesn't seek to manipulate events so much as access information that isn't ordinarily available to you, information that makes you wiser than you would otherwise be. I think it's sort of like going to a teacher and saying: "I'm kind of stupid about this - what do I need to be paying attention to right now and how should I be viewing it and maybe how could I be handling it a bit more skillfully?" I think that's legitimate, because it's a learning experience and it seeks to put me in harmony with myself and the universe. But magic per se is really dubious in my view, cuz it's so *manipulative* of outcomes. It doesn't try to learn, it tries to get what it wants.

But having said all that, there are people in the other forum who are constantly seeking secret information about other people in order to increase their chances of getting what they want. They're using the Yi magically, in service of their ego's agenda in order to manipulate situations to some extent. And that's why I'm so critical of that approach - I think it's 'magickal' to some extent - which makes it suspect. But it ain't a black and white situation, cuz primarily the Yi deals in information, not in outcomes. It's up to *you* to work with the information it gives you to do something about it.
 
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martin

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Thinking is not the problem. Nor is defining. It doesn't close gates. On the contrary, it can open them.
A clear precise intellect is an asset, in every walk of life. Mystical life too.
But the isolated intellect, intellect without feeling, that is a problem. For real understanding - what Heinlein called 'grokking' - you need the whole of yourself. Intellect alone is not enough.

Hmm, I now get the feeling that this is so trivial that it doesn't need to be said. Open door? Oh, well. :)
 
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Trojina

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But anyway, what do *you* mean when you say 'magic'? For me, the primary meaning is 'magick' - Aleister Crowley stuff - maybe white, maybe black, but always looking to manipulate outcomes using analogous ritual. The reason I'd like to explore this is cuz of the possible connection with Yi consultation.
.

Dunno I don't use the word. On a feeling level its a word that makes me feel faintly sick with something like an association with Disney films and candyfloss but thats a purely personal thing. But I think 'magic' is one of the words at the moment that means very different things to different people
 
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Trojina

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Thinking is not the problem. Nor is defining. It doesn't close gates. On the contrary, it can open them.
A clear precise intellect is an asset, in every walk of life. Mystical life too.
But the isolated intellect, intellect without feeling, that is a problem. For real understanding - what Heinlein called 'grokking' - you need the whole of yourself. Intellect alone is not enough.

Hmm, I now get the feeling that this is so trivial that it doesn't need to be said. Open door? Oh, well. :)

Yes thats what I meant, and yes i also felt it hardly need to be said, but it seemed there was an anti thinking/defining/rational thought thing going on
 

martin

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Is using the Yi a form of magic the way I've defined it? I think the answer is - no, not really. It doesn't seek to manipulate events so much as access information that isn't ordinarily available to you, information that makes you wiser than you would otherwise be. I think it's sort of like going to a teacher and saying: "I'm kind of stupid about this - what do I need to be paying attention to right now and how should I be viewing it and maybe how could I be handling it a bit more skillfully?" I think that's legitimate, because it's a learning experience and it seeks to put me in harmony with myself and the universe. But magic per se is really dubious in my view, cuz it's so *manipulative* of outcomes. It doesn't try to learn, it tries to get what it wants.

I also find that very dubious. I don't like it. Of course getting what we want is to a certain extent part of life. I just made coffee, that's what I wanted and I got it! :cool:
But I prefer to keep 'manipulation' minimal. Usually I also feel no need to know what's around the next corner, so I'm rarely interested in predictions. Why would I want to know how the story ends? It spoils the plot!
Magical, the word is not so easy to define for me, life is 'magical', what does that mean? That there is a hidden order behind it. Hidden connections between events, that sometimes surface. Something like that.
In any case, it's not the Crowley stuff.
 

dobro p

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Okay, so you and I don't like the Crowley type of magic.

So, if you look at 'magical' in terms of the hidden order behind things, well, for me that's not magical, that's scientific. That hidden order is scientific law (whether it's been discovered and formulated or not). The hidden order is so much of the way that I view things that I take it for granted, so there's nothing magical about it at all. It's a not very nice thing to say (but that's cuz I'm a not very nice person in some ways) but when people from Missouri *don't* see the hidden order working behind the surface of things, they appear rather stupid to me. ("Come on, numbnuts, get with it - there's way more to reality than mere sense data!") So for me, that's not magic, that's just the way things are. And of course, that's why I use the Yi, cuz it helps me appreciate and work with those hidden patterns. :)

If you want to call it magic, that's okay with me I suppose, but it reminds me a bit of the Disney candyfloss that had Trojan putting her fingers down her throat. I'd rather just call it 'the hidden order'. (Or if I'm feeling romantickal, the 'mystery'.)
 
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maremaria

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.........Magical, the word is not so easy to define for me, life is 'magical', what does that mean? .

I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Is something I have in my mind. A simple answer that explains everything. No definitions ,no descriptions but nothing is missing.

Its a "definition" I wrote in my alternative-definitions- book

Maria
 
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martin

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If you want to call it magic, that's okay with me I suppose, but it reminds me a bit of the Disney candyfloss that had Trojan putting her fingers down her throat. I'd rather just call it 'the hidden order'. (Or if I'm feeling romantickal, the 'mystery'.)

Lol, okay, call it 'the hidden order' then, to avoid any trouble with Disney floss.
Like Trojan I in fact don't use the word magic(al), so I was looking for something that I maybe could call magical. And then, this hidden order .. don't know anything else that comes close at the moment.

Of course what is hidden for me and just about to be revealed might not be hidden for you at all and so you may take it for granted, there is nothing magical about it. Not for you.
If that is so then, if there is any use for the word magical (and still trying to avoid the floss), it would refer to something on the boundary between knowing and not knowing? Still mostly hidden but beginning to reveal itself? This is relative then, relative to the knower and his or her awareness.

Perhaps it is what Meng meant when he talked about 'madness'. There is also a boundary there, between the sane and the mad. And on that boundary, that is where the magical is?
But I must leave that to you, Meng, it seems you are hiding at the moment :)
 

Trojina

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I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Maria

Thats very good but do you think a kid would be satisfied with that and say "okay thanks Maria" (or Martin). Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)
 

martin

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I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Is something I have in my mind. A simple answer that explains everything. No definitions ,no descriptions but nothing is missing.

Ah, I remember :) A simple answer that explains everything, there can be something magical about that, yes. Similar to finding a simple elegant solution for a complicated mathematical problem. 'Aha!'
 

martin

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Very good but do you think a kid would let you get away with that and say "okay thanks Maria". Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)

When I was a kid I probably would have said "I don't believe in angels". In fact, when I was five, I said to the kindergarten teacher that I didn't believe in the bible. She went to my mother to complain about it! :D
 

Trojina

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Martin

Of course what is hidden for me and just about to be revealed might not be hidden for you at all and so you may take it for granted, there is nothing magical about it. Not for you.
If that is so then, if there is any use for the word magical (and still trying to avoid the floss), it would refer to something on the boundary between knowing and not knowing? Still mostly hidden but beginning to reveal itself? This is relative then, relative to the knower and his or her awareness.




I think its the same with the word 'supernatural'. To someone who has regular interaction with the spirit world spirits are not supernatural but natural. To someone who has no or little awareness of spirits then they might class them as 'the supernatural.

But if I had to define magic satisfactorily for the sake of this discussion I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said it might "...refer to something on the boundary of knowing and not knowing ". Like you say once its known its not magical, when its unknown not magical - it s that borderline where the feeling of magic may be, yes.
 
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maremaria

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Thats very good but do you think a kid would be satisfied with that and say "okay thanks Maria" (or Martin). Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)

Would you say to a 3-years old that there is no Santa ? I wouldn't .

Santa : Old man, red clothes, brings presents
Angel : Young man/ woman white clothes, wings

Simple.
 

Trojina

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Would you say to a 3-years old that there is no Santa ? I wouldn't .

Santa : Old man, red clothes, brings presents
Angel : Young man/ woman white clothes, wings

Simple.

:confused: no I wouldn't tell a 3 year old there was no Santa. My point was that kids are inquisitive, they don't just swallow any old thing and they ask 100s of questions. They're not even simple questions they ask. If Santa is due and you have a 3 year old you have to have a few answers to hand to questions like "how does he get in" and "where will he put the reindeer" and so on. They are not empty headed accepting little creatures. Look at Martin for example, a rebel at 5 years old, lol
 
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maremaria

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:confused: no I wouldn't tell a 3 year old there was no Santa. My point was that kids are inquisitive, they don't just swallow any old thing and they ask 100s of questions. They're not even simple questions they ask. If Santa is due and you have a 3 year old you have to have a few answers to hand to questions like "how does he get in" and "where will he put the reindeer" and so on. They are not empty headed accepting little creatures. Look at Martin for example, a rebel at 5 years old, lol

ah, yes you are right about the 100s questions . I have two nieces, very demanding one. But what I was saying is that they initialy believe in Santa or Angels. As we believe in Hope , miracles etc. they just need information to get the whole picture. To make their "myth". If there is a Santa, he can always find a way to bring the presents.

I agree , as you said, that "They are not empty headed accepting little creatures' but in a way they are "empty headed" as they are more open to the "magic" thing. There is more space and less resistance in their head/heart/soul as in ours, the wise mature grown ups.

But then they grown up ... and their "magic" is diminish for the sake of rational.

Do we believe in more than what we see, explain or understand ?
Madness or sanity ?
 
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Sparhawk

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Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

Friedrich Nietzsche
 

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