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great person and master

dobro p

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Great person (da4 ren2) and master (zhu3) - what's the difference?

This is a good time to ask this question, cuz there's been discussion about both these terms here recently. I'll start (but I'd really appreciate your input on this one).

'Great person' refers as much to a state of being and state of mind than a role - it can be one's own inner/higher greatness, if I understand it correctly.

'Master' is more of a role - that of guide or examplar, a leading light for you.

See, the reason I'm asking is cuz recently I agreed with Brad that 'great person' included the idea of role model. But now I'm not so sure, cuz I'm thinking that 'master' is a role model par excellence. Thoughts?
 

Sparhawk

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See, the reason I'm asking is cuz recently I agreed with Brad that 'great person' included the idea of role model. But now I'm not so sure, cuz I'm thinking that 'master' is a role model par excellence. Thoughts?

How far down the semantics road you want to travel about the term "Master"?

I think that in some cases, a "Master" can be a role model, but in some other cases, it is not something you want to emulate... On the other hand, a Da Ren, semantically, has an implied role that one would like or be compelled to emulate.
 

dobro p

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How far down the semantics road you want to travel about the term "Master"?

I want to go as far down that road as it takes for me to have a reliable intellectual grasp of the difference between noble one and master. At that point, I want to abandon semantics and practise. Simple. That's my personal style - intellectual understanding first in order to build up a balanced approach. If my head understands it, I'm good to go.
 

Sparhawk

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I want to go as far down that road as it takes for me to have a reliable intellectual grasp of the difference between noble one and master. At that point, I want to abandon semantics and practise. Simple. That's my personal style - intellectual understanding first in order to build up a balanced approach. If my head understands it, I'm good to go.

Well, I was thinking along the lines that the term "Master" also have negative meanings, both in English and Chinese:
2 a: one having authority over another : ruler, governor b: one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c: a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1): one having control (2): an owner especially of a slave or animal e: the employer especially of a servant f (1)dialect : husband (2): the male head of a household
While having authority over another may seem commendable and worthy of emulation (power is power, after all...) on the other hand, there is a part of the equation that may disagree.

That's the reason I asked about the specific term "Master", if it would be a holistic analysis of the term, including the negatives, or based only on some positive abstraction to make it fit into the mold of "role model". Kind of trying to fit a dodecagon peg into circular hole: the hole will most likely disagree...
 

Sparhawk

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grasp of the difference between noble one and master.

BTW, I don't think we can fully equate Da Ren with "noble one". That seems to be the territory of a Jun Zi...
 

martin

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I did a quick scan of the W/B translation and it turns out that the word 'master' is only used in the commentaries, never in the translations of the image, the judgment or the lines (perhaps Wilhelm used the word there sometimes but Baynes changed it?).
So that's a little problem for people like me that don't understand Chinese. Where does the original text have zhu3?
 

Sparhawk

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So that's a little problem for people like me that don't understand Chinese. Where does the original text have zhu3?


It appears 5 times in the text of the Yijing ([SIZE=+1][/SIZE]):
2, Tuan Ci
36.1
38.2
55.1
55.4
 

Sparhawk

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One interesting note, just to muddle things up, even though zhu3 bears almost all the meanings that we could give to "Master", in English, in Spanish, I would gloss it mainly to the term "Maestro," that is, mainly a "teacher" but could also mean an honorific title for "Saviour" or "Lord" and along those lines, as in "Maestro Jesus" (as in Lord Jesus) or "Maestro Confucius," etc. In that sense, the Spanish word "Maestro"--one of the meanings of "Master" but with a narrower meaning in Spanish--is much closer to the ideal of Da Ren than the English word "Master".


Does it make sense?
 

dobro p

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BTW, I don't think we can fully equate Da Ren with "noble one". That seems to be the territory of a Jun Zi...

Oh, stupid of me. Yes, I want to compare the 'great person' and the 'master'. I don't want to talk about the 'noble one' at this point.
 

dobro p

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One interesting note, just to muddle things up, even though zhu3 bears almost all the meanings that we could give to "Master", in English, in Spanish, I would gloss it mainly to the term "Maestro," that is, mainly a "teacher" but could also mean an honorific title for "Saviour" or "Lord" and along those lines, as in "Maestro Jesus" (as in Lord Jesus) or "Maestro Confucius," etc. In that sense, the Spanish word "Maestro"--one of the meanings of "Master" but with a narrower meaning in Spanish--is much closer to the ideal of Da Ren than the English word "Master".


Does it make sense?

It makes sense, but if it's functioning as an honorific, then the Yi doesn't use with any other term. It's just 'zhu3', it's not 'zhu3 Luis1). But if its meaning is the same as 'the Master said' then you're right, it's close in meaning to 'great person'.
 

dobro p

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Well, I was thinking along the lines that the term "Master" also have negative meanings, both in English and Chinese:
2 a: one having authority over another : ruler, governor b: one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c: a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1): one having control (2): an owner especially of a slave or animal e: the employer especially of a servant f (1)dialect : husband (2): the male head of a household
While having authority over another may seem commendable and worthy of emulation (power is power, after all...) on the other hand, there is a part of the equation that may disagree.

That's the reason I asked about the specific term "Master", if it would be a holistic analysis of the term, including the negatives, or based only on some positive abstraction to make it fit into the mold of "role model". Kind of trying to fit a dodecagon peg into circular hole: the hole will most likely disagree...

Okay, at this point, I see two main possibilities for 'master':

1 a teacher, a role model

2 an authority figure

If it's the first, there's little or nothing negative about it. If it's the second, I see this kind of authority as a neutral fact of life, not something negative, in the same way that God's power and authority is to be both feared and loved, but not thought of as negative.
 

Sparhawk

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It makes sense, but if it's functioning as an honorific, then the Yi doesn't use with any other term. It's just 'zhu3', it's not 'zhu3 Luis1). But if its meaning is the same as 'the Master said' then you're right, it's close in meaning to 'great person'.

My Chinese is not as good as to presume how zhu3 can be used in other contexts, outside of the Yijing, or colloquial situations. Also I was careful to say that "Maestro" was closer in meaning to Da Ren, not that it meant that. What I had in mind, as you well pointed out, is something like the "Master said" as it is implied one knows who the "Master" is and in sacred literature one seems to attach to that "Master" a positive take.
 

Sparhawk

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If it's the second, I see this kind of authority as a neutral fact of life, not something negative, in the same way that God's power and authority is to be both feared and loved, but not thought of as negative.

Yes, you can chose the meaning that's closer to what you are looking for, but, it doesn't bar the other meanings. It is a semantic argument that we could play, like ping-pong, for days and thus whence my first question came from.

As for God's power and authority, well, that's like walking on very thin ice and another mine field. IMHO, and a very personal take at that, one only needs to read the Old Testament and be a real devotee not to see all the negative and wrathful things a loving God can do to its people.

Going back to the argument of "Da Ren = English word Master", no, I can't see it that way.
 

charly

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One interesting note, just to muddle things up, even though zhu3 bears almost all the meanings that we could give to "Master", in English, in Spanish, I would gloss it mainly to the term "Maestro," that is, mainly a "teacher" but could also mean an honorific title for "Saviour" or "Lord" and along those lines, as in "Maestro Jesus" (as in Lord Jesus) or "Maestro Confucius," etc. In that sense, the Spanish word "Maestro"--one of the meanings of "Master" but with a narrower meaning in Spanish--is much closer to the ideal of Da Ren than the English word "Master".
Luis:

I believe that MASTER SAYS allude directly to CONFUCIUS, but zhu means a person that has effective control of a task, maybe LEADER or HEAD (Ipreffer the 1st.) (1)

Lin Yutang dictionary gives some interesting meanings as noun:
  • Master, chief owner, possessor (say dominator → like in master and slave)
  • Host
  • Main aim, goal
  • Lord, sovereign, princess
  • Tablet for worship

and as verb:

  • To direct, to head (group, activity), to control, determine
  • To lodge at (s.o.’s house).
  • To stand for, to sponsor, lead or hold (an opinion against others)
  • To indicate, in divination [主吉indicates good luck,主凶 indicates bad luck]

I belive a LEADER that can be a MAN, can be a WOMAN or can be a SPIRIT, say the ORACLE, the spirit of the tablet (2).

Here you can see a female zhou (leadin a program):

F200801090936172132226491.jpg


From: http://pic.people.com.cn/GB/42590/6751887.html

Un abrazo,

Charly


_________________________________________
(1) En fin, «tener la manija», «to have the handle».
(2) In japanese zhu means also «guardian spirit»
 

Sparhawk

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Hola Charly,

Yes, that's more or less what I said above. Dobro's question, if I'm not mistaken, is if "Da Ren (大人)" is somewhat akin to "主" in similar contexts. My opinion is that is not.


Un abrazo,
 

dobro p

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So, would you guys be happy with a sort of feudal definition of master as somebody you are obliged to defer to and take instruction and orders from?
 

Sparhawk

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So, would you guys be happy with a sort of feudal definition of master as somebody you are obliged to defer to and take instruction and orders from?

In the case of 主, in some contexts, I don't see how you could have any other option... Let's look at the lines where it appears using Wilhelm:
  • 36.1:
    Nine at the beginning means:
    Darkening of the light during flight.
    He lowers his wings.
    The superior man does not eat for three days
    On his wanderings.
    But he has somewhere to go.
    The host has occasion to gossip about him.
  • 38.2:
    One meets his lord in a narrow street.
    No blame.
  • 55.1:
    Nine at the beginning means:
    When a man meets his destined ruler,
    They can be together ten days,
    And it is not a mistake.
    Going meets with recognition.
  • 55.2:
    Nine in the fourth place means:
    The curtain is of such fullness
    That the polestars can be seen at noon.
    He meets his ruler, who is of like kind.
    Good fortune.
  • 2 Tuan Ci: THE RECEPTIVE brings about sublime success,
    Furthering through the perseverance of a mare.
    If the superior man undertakes something and tries to lead,
    He goes astray;
    But if he follows, he finds guidance.
    It is favorable to find friends in the west and south,
    To forego friends in the east and north.
    Quiet perseverance brings good fortune.
The only time it is used as a particle, to indicate something is favorable, as indicated in the examples given by Charly above, is in Hex 2.
 
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dobro p

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And if you are a disciple, the master has a similar authority over you, although the situation isn't feudal, or social even.

Okay, so 'master' has the idea of 'power over' somebody or 'commanding authority'. Okay, so how would you contrast 'great person' with 'master'? I don't get any idea at all of the great person having this sort of role. I see 'great person' as a descriptor, pure and simple, of a level of being higher than the norm.
 

dobro p

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Oh, and by the way, when I was talking about attitudes toward God earlier on, I was using that as an illustration of a particular attitude toward authority that we all recognize, not one that we all accept or believe in. You know, I think the Old Testament had a lot more to do with the people who wrote than it did with God. I think that was one of the big things Jesus was about, in fact - to bring an unbalanced religion back into some sort of equilibrium by emphasing devotion and compassion more than law and rigid practice. However, I *do* think his attitude to God was one of devotion, fear, and obedience - in other words, God was his master. Not a negative thing. At least, I don't see it as negative, but then I've got that luxury because I've never been a practising Christian or had to endure firsthand the superficiality it has degenerated into in the last few centuries.

By the way #2: I don't read Hex 2 the same way as the text you quoted. I render it as 'master': "Beforehand delusion, afterward getting master".

This is that learning curve I was talking about in the thread on Hex 2 I started recently.

By the way #3 lol: Just about all of the five different instances of 'master' could be seen as either the feudal or the spiritual form of the word. So, I'm thinking the 'power over' meaning is generic, and not specifically political, social, religious, or spiritual. But as I type I'm thinking it should be 'power over, and supplying guidance'. Taken that way, Jesus was both great man and master.
 

Sparhawk

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Okay, so 'master' has the idea of 'power over' somebody or 'commanding authority'. Okay, so how would you contrast 'great person' with 'master'? I don't get any idea at all of the great person having this sort of role. I see 'great person' as a descriptor, pure and simple, of a level of being higher than the norm.


I would say that the Da Ren stands by his own merits as opposed to Zhu that may or may not have merit to justify his position. For the rest, I think I agree with you.
 

Sparhawk

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By the way #2: I don't read Hex 2 the same way as the text you quoted. I render it as 'master': "Beforehand delusion, afterward getting master".

This is that learning curve I was talking about in the thread on Hex 2 I started recently.

By the way #3 lol: Just about all of the five different instances of 'master' could be seen as either the feudal or the spiritual form of the word. So, I'm thinking the 'power over' meaning is generic, and not specifically political, social, religious, or spiritual. But as I type I'm thinking it should be 'power over, and supplying guidance'. Taken that way, Jesus was both great man and master.


Discussing religion could be a touchy issue... :bows: As for BTW#2, how did you parsed the Chinese text? I follow that H-Y text of the Zhouyi, where it is parsed for us (of course, we are not going to start a separate argument to figure out if it is parsed correctly, I hope... :D):

坤 元亨利牝馬之貞。君子有攸往。先迷後得。主利。西南得朋。東北喪朋。安貞吉。
 

dobro p

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I parsed it before I came across the H-Y Yi, in the way that made the most sense to me:

xian mi hou de zhu = beforehand delusion, afterward getting master

li xi nan de peng = advantage western south getting friends

dong bei sang peng = eastern north losing friends

And as I read it more closely again, I'm very tempted to combine the two lines about friends so that it would read: "It's advantageous to get friends in the southwest and lose them in the northeast", meaning that Hex 2 involves both gaining and losing friendly support. I think this because it seems to be the natural effect of the learning curve I mentioned before - you move from delusion to guidance as you gain the master, and this shift involves losing some friends and gaining new ones. It's like when you make a big life change and sometimes the people you used to know don't seem to recognize you and like you so much anymore. I pretty much stopped drinking a few months ago, and now my drinking buddies look at me kinda funny; they don't understand, and they feel a bit uncomfortable when I come round to watch the TV football and they're drunk and I'm not. But when I tell my meditating buddies about stopping drinking, they nod appreciatively and understand and think I'm on track with them and improving. The change has alienated one set of friends and strengthened the other set.
 

dobro p

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If I'm right about this, there's a huge resonance between Hex 2 and Hex 4, cuz of the 'learning attitude and importance of receptivity' involved in each.
 

dobro p

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And the reason you change friend groups is because you've changed your attitudes and understanding; and the reason you change your attitude and understanding is because you've outgrown delusion; and the reason you're able to outgrow delusion is because you've established a working relation with a master; and the reason the student has found the teacher is because you've managed somehow to realize the attitude symbolized by the Hex 2 mare, that which combines enthusiasm and energy with a complete willingness to be led.

Which means internalizing the pattern of Hex 2 is the key to moving from jun zi to da ren.
 

Sparhawk

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Ah... Free-form parsing... :D You've just reminded me of this handy book I have about English grammar:

eatspb3.jpg
 

dobro p

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:rofl:

Look, I know we don't want to go there. But I consulted the Yi about my idea and it was very encouraging. 15.2
 

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