Clarity,
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See, the reason I'm asking is cuz recently I agreed with Brad that 'great person' included the idea of role model. But now I'm not so sure, cuz I'm thinking that 'master' is a role model par excellence. Thoughts?
How far down the semantics road you want to travel about the term "Master"?
I want to go as far down that road as it takes for me to have a reliable intellectual grasp of the difference between noble one and master. At that point, I want to abandon semantics and practise. Simple. That's my personal style - intellectual understanding first in order to build up a balanced approach. If my head understands it, I'm good to go.
grasp of the difference between noble one and master.
So that's a little problem for people like me that don't understand Chinese. Where does the original text have zhu3?
BTW, I don't think we can fully equate Da Ren with "noble one". That seems to be the territory of a Jun Zi...
One interesting note, just to muddle things up, even though zhu3 bears almost all the meanings that we could give to "Master", in English, in Spanish, I would gloss it mainly to the term "Maestro," that is, mainly a "teacher" but could also mean an honorific title for "Saviour" or "Lord" and along those lines, as in "Maestro Jesus" (as in Lord Jesus) or "Maestro Confucius," etc. In that sense, the Spanish word "Maestro"--one of the meanings of "Master" but with a narrower meaning in Spanish--is much closer to the ideal of Da Ren than the English word "Master".
Does it make sense?
Well, I was thinking along the lines that the term "Master" also have negative meanings, both in English and Chinese:
2 a: one having authority over another : ruler, governor b: one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c: a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1): one having control (2): an owner especially of a slave or animal e: the employer especially of a servant f (1)dialect : husband (2): the male head of a householdWhile having authority over another may seem commendable and worthy of emulation (power is power, after all...) on the other hand, there is a part of the equation that may disagree.
That's the reason I asked about the specific term "Master", if it would be a holistic analysis of the term, including the negatives, or based only on some positive abstraction to make it fit into the mold of "role model". Kind of trying to fit a dodecagon peg into circular hole: the hole will most likely disagree...
It makes sense, but if it's functioning as an honorific, then the Yi doesn't use with any other term. It's just 'zhu3', it's not 'zhu3 Luis1). But if its meaning is the same as 'the Master said' then you're right, it's close in meaning to 'great person'.
If it's the second, I see this kind of authority as a neutral fact of life, not something negative, in the same way that God's power and authority is to be both feared and loved, but not thought of as negative.
Luis:One interesting note, just to muddle things up, even though zhu3 bears almost all the meanings that we could give to "Master", in English, in Spanish, I would gloss it mainly to the term "Maestro," that is, mainly a "teacher" but could also mean an honorific title for "Saviour" or "Lord" and along those lines, as in "Maestro Jesus" (as in Lord Jesus) or "Maestro Confucius," etc. In that sense, the Spanish word "Maestro"--one of the meanings of "Master" but with a narrower meaning in Spanish--is much closer to the ideal of Da Ren than the English word "Master".
So, would you guys be happy with a sort of feudal definition of master as somebody you are obliged to defer to and take instruction and orders from?
Okay, so 'master' has the idea of 'power over' somebody or 'commanding authority'. Okay, so how would you contrast 'great person' with 'master'? I don't get any idea at all of the great person having this sort of role. I see 'great person' as a descriptor, pure and simple, of a level of being higher than the norm.
By the way #2: I don't read Hex 2 the same way as the text you quoted. I render it as 'master': "Beforehand delusion, afterward getting master".
This is that learning curve I was talking about in the thread on Hex 2 I started recently.
By the way #3 lol: Just about all of the five different instances of 'master' could be seen as either the feudal or the spiritual form of the word. So, I'm thinking the 'power over' meaning is generic, and not specifically political, social, religious, or spiritual. But as I type I'm thinking it should be 'power over, and supplying guidance'. Taken that way, Jesus was both great man and master.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).