Gregory Whincup's "Rediscovering the I Ching"?

[Sparhawk]

Karcher completely bought into his interpretation of 55

Not only bought into it, he tried to make it his own without attribution. That was a big stink for Steve, even before Pankenier and Nielsen had something to say about it.

 

[hilary]

he tried to make it his own without attribution.

Not really: he put SJM in the bibliography, when he would have preferred a vote of thanks at the front. (I think - I was never quite clear on what he wanted.) SK apologised and promised acknowledgements in the next printing. One from the annals of Great Stinks We Have Hosted.

 

[dfreed]

Ah. Actually, in 2010 I cheerfully talked about eclipses. Then I read Pankenier on the subject of Marshall and decided discretion (and 'startling anomalies'!) was the better part of valour.

By and large, I say what I have in mind , but please do quote anything you'd like me to say more about.

Yes, most definitely! I don't think I was being clear here, so ...

... what caught my attention was what you said above about 'startling anomalies' and how you may have arrived at them (maybe via something Pankenier said) - and also Irfan liking what you said. I felt like I didn't know the whole 'story' here, so it made me curious.

This morning I looked at Hex. 55 in your I Ching (2010 Arcturus ed.); I didn't see the phrase 'startling anomalies' (if it is there, I apologize for missing it). You do, however, mention the 'Feng' being screened off, and that at mid-day there is darkness and the Dipper. And in your commentary, you mention an (or the) 'eclipse' a number of times, so ...

... this made me “curiouser and curiouser!” (and like Alice, ... for the moment I quite forgot how to speak good English - or obviously how to ask my question so you and others understand it!).

And - following my own sage advice - in the next day or so I'll try to post some musings about Hex. 55 and its garrison town, abundance, 'massing' and The Plough (both from Rutt), screens, dippers, eclipses. et al.

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

he put SJM in the bibliography,

Looking at Karcher's Total I Ching this morning, to his credit (or not to his credit) in his interpretation / commentary Karcher doesn't offer footnotes, references, etc. along the way. It seems that he gleaned a lot of stuff from many different, wide-ranging sources. As Hilary noted, Marshall's book is listed in the bibliography, along with lots of other books, people and sources.

For example Karcher talks about " ... the Dipper, constellation of the fates", and a "far-reaching connection to the spirits", which (based on what little I've read by Marshall) doesn't feel very Marshall-esque to me, but is instead from a wider range of sources, along with mythic, correlative - and maybe even Jungian? - thinking thrown in for good measure.

Best, D

 

[Sparhawk]

Not really: he put SJM in the bibliography, when he would have preferred a vote of thanks at the front. (I think - I was never quite clear on what he wanted.) SK apologised and promised acknowledgements in the next printing. One from the annals of Great Stinks We Have Hosted.

Thank you for the clarification. The whole exchange is buried somewhere here, I'm sure. That's how I first encountered Steve, and our first bruising, because, silly me, I tried to defend SK... He left Clarity shortly after that incident. We've been friends for 20 years after that, mind you, and have been sharing research for that long.

 

[hilary]

... what caught my attention was what you said above about 'startling anomalies' and how you may have arrived at them (maybe via something Pankenier said) - and also Irfan liking what you said. I felt like I didn't know the whole 'story' here, so it made me curious.

This morning I looked at Hex. 55 in your I Ching (2010 Arcturus ed.); I didn't see the phrase 'startling anomalies' (if it is there, I apologize for missing it). You do, however, mention the 'Feng' being screened off, and that at mid-day there is darkness and the Dipper. And in your commentary, you mention an (or the) 'eclipse' a number of times, so ...

... this made me “curiouser and curiouser!” (and like Alice, ... for the moment I quite forgot how to speak good English - or obviously how to ask my question so you and others understand it!).

No problem! Full timeline:

2001: Marshall's Mandate of Heaven comes out. I read it, I am delighted; hexagram 55 will never be the same for me again. Whole new realms of interpretive depth open up.
2009: Arcturus ask me to write a book. Everything I've gleaned from Steve M goes in, eclipses and all.
Some years later... I come across Pankenier's review. Oh.
2017: I get the chance to revise the text. Eclipse? Sunspots? It doesn't, I think, make that much difference to the business of interpretation: the point is that the Zhou at Feng watched the sky for signs, saw something extraordinary, and had to act on it and not faff about. So I ended up hedging my bets in the commentary and replacing eclipses with unspecified 'startling anomalies'.

 

[dfreed]

So I ended up hedging my bets in the commentary and replacing eclipses with unspecified 'startling anomalies'.

Ah, so this refers to revised text found in a newer edition than what I'm reading. I get it now. Thanks.

It doesn't, I think, make that much difference to the business of interpretation

Because of these postings, over the last few days I have re-visited this Hexagram and the eclipses (aka 'startling anomalies'), et al. and it has provided me with different and interesting interpretive possibilities. However, the one place I started with and which still rings true for me - with the darkening banners and screens - reminds me of this Wendell Berry poem:

​

To go into the dark with a light​

is to know the light.​

​

To know the dark, go dark,​

go without sight.​

​

And find that the dark too blooms and sings​

and is traveled by dark feet and dark wings.​

So, for me it can be about seeing things in a different - or perhaps in situ* - way: that darkness is best known by being in the dark (to know the dark, go dark) ....

*situated in the original place.

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

So I ended up hedging my bets in the commentary and replacing eclipses with unspecified 'startling anomalies'.

I get that.

For me, I can imagine (visualize, create a story with) thick banners, screens, garrison forts, eclipses .... It's a bit more of a stretch for me to do it with startling anomalies. That doesn't make it wrong; just that it has a different - maybe 'hedging your bets'? - feel to it. It kind of reminds me of what someone might say if they are asked about a meal that they don't really like: 'well, it certainly was different', or 'that was ... surprising' ....

But in reality, I'm not seeing it 'in situ' - within the context / framework of a reading where I made use of your translation. In that case, I assume I might see it differently and glean meaning from it.

Best, D

 

[hilary]

Yes, the eclipse makes a splendid story and image for divination, much better than 'sunspots in the shape of a constellation as seen through a sandstorm'. Ah well.

That Wendell Berry poem reminds me of 55.4 especially.

 

[charly]

I get dodder for 4 and crying pheasant for 36, but I don't understand fu and captives. Anyone know of anything to read about this that doesn't involve paying for it? ( )

Hi Liselle:

I believe that that you may enjoy the article about «The Book od Changes» by Arthur Waley available for free in the page of Steve Marshall, (1)

I like much Waley althoug sometimes I don't share his ideas, but even so I like it.

A sample with __ .fu, sincere/captive:
(From page 125, don't worry, the article has only 22 pages)

.
​

.

Source:
Arthur Waley: «The Book od Changes», Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities.

On the base that concrete concepts have precedence over abstract ones Waley says that the moral sense of 孚,fu2, like true - reliable - sincere, had to be a derivaive of some else concrete, like ant - prisoner.

I like the reasoning, but I believe that seeing the historical evolution of the written character 孚,fu2, the sense of reliability and confidence had precedence on those of captive, prisoner or booty that used the character by semantic extension or phonetic loan.

孚,fu2 character evolution:

- Bone Script - Bronze Script - Small Seal -l
​

Source: Zdic.net, here.​

Look that at least in the the first Bronze character and both Small Seal characters the lower component CHILD doesn't seem to be suffering, and the upper component doesn't seem to be a CLAW.

I must recognize: in the bone character on the left I see a HAND catching a CHILD by the EAR, maybe a prisoner. But children were taken as prisoners of war? Princes were taken or interchanged as HOSTAGES to ensure the fulfillment of alliances between states, but they were not mistreated unless their relatives defaulted on their obligations. If not they were treated like GUESTS, with the prerogatives relative to their rank.

In the bronze and small seal characters, I see an unknown HAND stroking the head of a CHID, maybe an expression of MATERNAL LOVE.

(to be continued) (2)

All the best,

Charly
______________________
(1) Now the link functions.
(2) I've passed a temporary black out and the last part of this post gets lost, I will restore it assap.
Ch.

 

[IrfanK]

I believe that that you may enjoy the article about «The Book od Changes» by Arthur Waley available for free in the page os Steve Marshall, here.

Hey Charly, for some reason, that link leads to an Oops! error message. I'd really like to check it out, if you can find a working link. Thanks!

2017: I get the chance to revise the text. Eclipse? Sunspots? It doesn't, I think, make that much difference to the business of interpretation: the point is that the Zhou at Feng watched the sky for signs, saw something extraordinary, and had to act on it and not faff about. So I ended up hedging my bets in the commentary and replacing eclipses with unspecified 'startling anomalies'.

I thought it worked really well. You made a great link between this new story and the older interpretations of Abundance, so the new story added to, rather than displaced, the traditional understanding. And that's really what I hope to find when I look at the modernist reconstructions.

By the way, now that we've thoroughly established a background context to my original question over the past 100 posts, have you ever looked at Whincup? I did get the impression that he used some of the modern ideas. I'd be interested in looking at some more pop takes on those ideas, written for divination rather than as academic tomes. If nothing else, they are going to be a lot cheaper. The other one that I heard of that might fall into that category might be something by ... Crouch? The Chameleon Book? Something like that. (Charming name! Even if it doesn't hold water!).

Well, anyway, Whincup is making its way across the seas through the postal system now, so I guess it will turn up any month now.

 

[IrfanK]

For example Karcher talks about " ... the Dipper, constellation of the fates", and a "far-reaching connection to the spirits", which (based on what little I've read by Marshall) doesn't feel very Marshall-esque to me, but is instead from a wider range of sources, along with mythic, correlative - and maybe even Jungian? - thinking thrown in for good measure.

Well, it's a different language style. But I think "far reaching connection to the spirits" makes sense and is consistent with Marshall. A sign that the mandate of heaven has shifted to the Zhou, communicated by ... God? The ancestors? The spirits? And telling Wu to break all the conventions, rebel against his sworn king, ignore the mourning period, to seize great glory.

My version of TIC says this, which is a pretty good summary of Marshall's central argument:

The term feng also is the name of King Wu’s military capital, built on the Feng River in anticipation of the war with Shang. At this time, King Wu was in mourning for his father King Wen, beginning the three years of isolation in the Mourning Hut prescribed for a royal ancestor. A solar eclipse occurred on or about 20 June 1070 bce, at the solstice. King Wu took this as a direct omen from Heaven that Shang was about to fall and that he had finally received the Mandate for Change. When the sky became dark, the Bin or Dipper, the palace of Shang Di, the High Lord, appeared in the heavens as a powerful omen of military victory. King Wu made a turtle divination to see whether he should remain in mourning or take up arms immediately. The turtle oracle, which works in matched pairs of positive/negative statements, gave an answer to the charge “perhaps stay in mourning.” It said: “Trap! The Way closes!” King Wu then made the yi-sacrifice at noon. His War Leader, the Duke of Zhou, announced the results at the Earth Altar, smeared the drums with blood and the armies marching into the wilderness of Mu to fight the battle that ended the rule of the Shang. With this radical and shocking action, King Wu not only broke the stringently prescribed period of mourning, but carried his father’s corpse, which had not yet been enshrined in a spirit-tablet, with him into battle. This act of obedience to the Mandate that broke all the rules was to bring great abundance to all.

Who needs Game of Thrones?

PS. Oh, and I checked the acknowledgments section, right before the Contents page. Amongst a dozen or so other people, Karcher gives "special thank to Steve Marshall and his pioneering work on the Mandate of Heaven that informs my translation of several key hexagrams (7, 18, 44, 55) and contributed greatly to my sense of the hidden history in the Classic of Changes." (Hmmm. He could have added 36, with the three-legged crow that eats the sun.) LiSe also gets a mention "for her beautiful work on the ancient characters."

 

[Sparhawk]

Waley's

 

[charly]

Hey Charly, for some reason, that link leads to an Oops! error message. I'd really like to check it out, if you can find a working link. Thanks!

It was a copy/paste error, it was edited and functions.
If you are interested in a PDF with OCR, say not only printable but also sercheable, the bulletins of the Museum (BMFEA) are available as public domain in archive.org

Can see more about Waley's article in this old thread:

Arthur Waley «Book of Changes»

Many years that Steve Marshall put in his site a pdf copy of the thought provoking study of A. Waley originally published by the Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities. Now the complete bulletin (BMFEA, nº 5, 1933) is available in a searchable pdf with an acceptable OCR, although...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

The other one that I heard of that might fall into that category might be something by ... Crouch? The Chameleon Book? Something like that. (Charming name! Even if it doesn't hold water!).

I Ching: The Chameleon Book by Freeman Crouch​

is available for complete view in Google Books​

May enjoy it.

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

In the bronze and small seal characters, I see an unknown HAND stroking the head of a CHID, maybe an expression of MATERNAL LOVE.

Here the continuation:

Among the many characters with 孚, fu2 as a component there is one illustrative of CHILD CARE:

乳, ru3, breast, nipples, milk, suckle.​

Here its evolution:

Bone Script ___________ Small Seal ___________ Traditional

Source: Zdic.net
​

Of course, the Bone Script version, a BREASTFEEDING scene, although natural for ancient readership, for the later become excessively explicit, almost obscene in its crude nudity,

Going from the bone script to the small seal, the CHILD kept his legs like Swee' Pea, his arms free and his look satisfied. The NURTURING MOTHER has disappeared, only her HAND remains caressing the child's head. At the right appeared a vertical WAVY LINE somewhat distanced from both the child and her hand. A line that some etymologists say is a SWALLOW BIRD charged with newborn delivery like a STORK for westerners.

The move to traditional writing only made things worse: the mother's hand became a CLAW, the satisfied child a rigid puppet. The tail at the right is a mystery for many people.

The concept behind the bone scrip character was, I believe, that early experiences with the mother shape the character of the child. In breast feeding, the quality of the maternal attitude, the close and warm contact with satisfaction for both parts streghten the feeling of self confidence in the child. Courage and reliability will last a lifetime, of course, if serious trauma doesn't occur.

That stated, it follows that children and adults are captives of the quality of the bond with their mothers. Also captives of the legacy of their grandmothers, of their ancestresses, of their goddesses ...

Meanings of confidence, reliability, truth came first, captives, booty were later extensions. At least, I believe so.

All the best,

Charly
____________________________
(1) Time seems not to have changed some things:

Photo of breastfeeding mom in public ignites online storm in China​

edition.cnn.com/2015/12/01/asia/china-beijing-subway-breastfeeding/

December 1, 2015

Story highlights​

• Photo of nursing mother goes viral on Chinese social media
• Pictures ignites debate over breastfeeding in public
• Breastfeeding rates in China below global average

Beijing (CNN)A photo of a woman nursing her baby in a crowded Beijing subway train has unleashed a furious -- and some say much needed -- debate over breastfeeding in public in China.
A passenger posted the original photo on Weibo, China's equivalent to Twitter, with the caption: "Let me remind you -- this is a Beijing subway not a bus running in your village."

The snapshot went viral after being reposted by Beijing Tale -- a volunteer organization that helps clean up subway flyers. It criticized the woman for exposing her "sexual organs" in public.
But many Internet users condemned the passenger and the organization for taking and sharing an intimate photo, and defended the mother.
"It'd be ideal if she had used a nursing cover, but it's not a big deal if she didn't have one. Breasts are...for babies; they are not sexual organs," Ou Qian, a Guangzhou doctor and a mother herself, said.
Read More
"Babies need to be fed when they are hungry. She is a great mom."

Ch.

 

[dfreed]

Bone Script: a BREASTFEEDING scene, ...

Small seal: the CHILD kept his legs like Swee' Pea, his arms free and his look satisfied.

Traditional writing only made things worse: the mother's hand became a CLAW, the satisfied child a rigid puppet. The tail at the right is a mystery for many people.

I see that this might also be showing an evolution of meaning - or meanings - as humans (or Shang-to Zhou culture) evolved:

Bone Script: an infant breast-feeding. I can envision it being both nurturing, and an acknowledgement that as infants we are dependent on our mothers for nourishment. (But 'held captive by', I'm not so sure?) And more broadly, we are also being supported and are dependent on our family, clan, community .... didn't someone famous once say that 'it takes a village'.

Seal Script: thinking / understanding continues to evolve. Here is a child who looks like a sunflower or other plant (an apt metaphor), and we're being shown how it's nourished: from above by rain (or perhaps a mother's caring hand); to the right there is a wavy line, which I see as a river: she is being nurtured by the flow and passage of time (and the rolls/parts our ancestors had or still have in that flow), and at the same time the passage of time very much influences our development as humans ....

I also see the wavy line as the King's - or Father's - banner waving in the wind: it represents the influence of the Father, perhaps a 'nurture-plus-nature' sort of thing: that there is more than just the influence and nurturing from our mother's milk involved here - which connects us again to 'it takes a village'; e.g. that under the clan's banner there are farmers, carpenters, teachers, bakers, nurses, diviners .... and cows, fish, dogs, pigs - and it's not just (mothers') milk dispensers - whom 'feed' and nurture us.

The King's or Father's banner also moves us away from blaming the mother - or this idea that we are the "captives of the legacy of their (our) grandmothers, of ancestresses, of their goddesses ...." That sounds more than a bit chauvinist and misogynistic to me - though that may not be how it was intended here.

As to the modern script, I have no clear notion. But venturing a wild guess - but one based only on how it looks, and not what it means - which is likely wildly inaccurate for a character that IS NOT a pictograph nor a picture of it's meaning:

* The figure at lower-left is now all grown up (or is she still growing?). She or he, or they - are still influenced by nature and natural forces (the lines/marks above); but she also has access to other resources, tools, etc. symbolized by the hooked figure at right: this reminds me of one of those 12-in-1-tools I sometimes get as a gift: here it is a hook, a scythe, a plough, a bench, a weapon, etc. ... and a stand to hold up one's personal banner - or that of one's tribe or clan.

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

Well, it's a different language style. But I think "far reaching connection to the spirits" makes sense and is consistent with Marshall.

As I said, I've hardly read Marshall, so I was venturing a guess (though I do like the solar eclipse photo on the front of his book). My main thrust here is:

First, for me much of Karcher reflects the very wide-ranging influences he mentions in his bibliography, including: early manuscripts (the Zhouyi, etc.); history, correlative systems (and thinking); divination traditions; deep/depth psychology; myths, rituals, the Tao and others.

So when I read, 'constellation of the fates', and a 'far-reaching connection to the spirits' or 'four hidden lands', or demon country, rising mists, bright omens (or dozens of other Karcher-isms) .... I'm not just reading the influences from Marshall, and ... I also feel I am no longer just reading the Yijing or Zhouyi. And as discussed often, some of us are more drawn (or not) to this mythic-poetic approach than others.

Second, when I read 'You have a far-reaching connection to the spirits that will carry you though' I don't feel I'm reading a translation of Line 55.2; instead, this is such a broad statement that it reads like a description of divination in general: i.e. that through the Yi, or Tarot, Ifa, Qabalah, the Bible, the Canon of Supreme Mystery, or Silver Surfer comics, vol. 1, no 13 (for bibliomancy fanciers) ... we can have 'a far-reaching connection to the spirits'.

And while it may serve as a reminder of what we're doing (in consulting an oracle), I don't see it as being part of the actual translation, or central to the meaning(s) of Line 55.2 - and how I understand and interpret it.

And as usual, others may see it differently.

Best, D

 

[hilary]

By the way, now that we've thoroughly established a background context to my original question over the past 100 posts, have you ever looked at Whincup?

He's on the bookshelf somewhere...

... and actually is more interesting than I remembered. Not super-'modernist': no twitching captives or squealing rats here. The underlying idea is that the sequence tells the story of a young man rising to become ruler (and then another young man finding a place at his court) - but this is kept pretty general and in the background, so it doesn't distort the translation. There are some nice, simple ideas in there.

(Interesting how his story manages to exclude female protagonists and even family life absolutely. It's all about a man's career, all the time.)

 

[IrfanK]

[deleted weird double post thing]

 

[IrfanK]

He's on the bookshelf somewhere...

... and actually is more interesting than I remembered. Not super-'modernist': no twitching captives or squealing rats here. The underlying idea is that the sequence tells the story of a young man rising to become ruler (and then another young man finding a place at his court) - but this is kept pretty general and in the background, so it doesn't distort the translation. There are some nice, simple ideas in there.

Thanks!

Well, it sounds interesting enough. Always fun to see another take. And anyway, I've got so many interesting links from the discussion on this thread that I think I'll have got my money's worth even if it never arrives!

Interesting how his story manages to exclude female protagonists and even family life absolutely. It's all about a man's career, all the time.

Hmm. The I Ching for the career-focused male executive with a passion for ancient Chinese history? Okay.