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Gregory Whincup's "Rediscovering the I Ching"?

IrfanK

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Anyone who has made it this far into the thread might be interested in Shaughnessy's 1984 thesis on "The Composition of the Zhouyi." I found a link to it at:

https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2011/RLB289/um/shaughnessy.pdf

The preface is very nice. He talks about the archeological discovery of a Western Zhou temple, of which nothing remained except the foundations, and of the approach required to reconstruct an image of how it was built, what it looked like, how the roof was constructed. He compares his own task of reconstructing the Zhouyi to that.
 
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Liselle

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A short thread with a relevant title:

Chris Lofting posted in it saying things like:
"there is the sense of captivating the heart and so the sense of empathy"
"The capturing of the heart is reflected in such actions as a judge sympathising for a prisoner and going to bat for them."
"a general focus on qualities regarding issues of loyalties and being empathic to, sympathetic to 'whatever'."
etc.

He also says this:
60 opposes what pairs with 62, 56,
60 and 56 are complement/opposites, fine - where does he get the "what pairs with 62" part?
 

dfreed

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A short thread with a relevant title:
Liselle, I assume you added your post because of the discussion about the word / character 'fu', is that correct?

If so, it occurred to me that if this is of interest, that it might warrant it's own thread - so it's not buried on page 4 of a thread about Gregory Whincup's "Rediscovering the I Ching". Just a thought.

Having given that sage advice, here's a 2009 article from Harmen Mesker, titled 'Who's Fu-ling Who?' In it he says:

On bronze inscriptions we see 孚 mainly used as a verb: to capture people, chariots, or other materials during a battle. It was the act of acquiring war booty, and sometimes it also referred to the booty itself. But it mainly was a verb. This meaning was lost in later centuries; instead of a verb it became a quality. The Book of Odes, contains a good example of fu as a quality:

And thus he secured the confidence (FU) due to a king.

.... but it is not the confidence of the king: it is the confidence that the king inspires in his people. That is the quality of fu: through sincerity you inspire confidence or trust in others, the others have confidence in you ....

So what does it mean when you read in the Yijing that there is fu? It depends on the situation, but it could indicate that there is sincerity (genuineness, naturalness, authenticity), which enables (one) to connect with the goals that are set, or with the means that can be put to use. Without fu there is no connection and it will be very difficult (though not impossible) to achieve anything.​

Maybe this is an example of what I've heard called correlative thinking?

Lately, I've been playing around with transforming words: I take a list of (more or less) randomly-chosen words/phrases from the Zhouyi, or the Classic of Mountains and Seas - nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs - and I string them together with the words 'becomes' or 'transforms into'. So for 'Fu', it might look like:

Going to war, leads to ...
FU, returning with captives, which becomes
sacrificing captives, which becomes
FU, inspiring the people's confidence, which transforms into ...
FU, truth, sincerity, trust ....


Best, D
 
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IrfanK

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If so, it occurred to me that if this is of interest, that it might warrant it's own thread - so it's not buried on page 4 of a thread about Gregory Whincup's "Rediscovering the I Ching". Just a thought.
A bit late to start worrying about the thread going off topic now. No-one has mentioned Whincup for more than fifty posts.
 

Liselle

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Sorry, fellas, I looked back and it seems I did barge in here and start this tangent. Irfan mentioned fu in passing and then I asked a bunch of questions, and no it doesn't have anything to do with Whincup.

:paperbag:

@hilary do you think it makes sense to try to move the fu posts?
 
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IrfanK

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Sorry, fellas, I looked back and it seems I did barge in here and started this tangent. Irfan mentioned fu in passing and then I asked a bunch of questions, and no it doesn't have anything to do with Whincup.

:paperbag:

@hilary do you think it makes sense to try to move the fu posts?
I thought it was totally relevant to the discussion about modernist vs. traditional interpretations! The fu thing is a shibboleth: if someone translates it as "captives," you can more or less assume they are in the modernist camp. If they see it as "sincerity," they are very likely more on the traditionalist side.
 

Liselle

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It's your thread, so if you're not bothered by it, fine. It probably won't make Hilary unhappy, not to move a bunch of posts. Venturing a guess.
 

IrfanK

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It's your thread, so if you're not bothered by it, fine. It probably won't make Hilary unhappy, not to move a bunch of posts. Venturing a guess.
Not bothered at all! There have been some fascinating ideas floated around.
 

dfreed

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A bit late to start worrying about the thread going off topic now. No-one has mentioned Whincup for more than fifty posts.
You are right; this thread has gone in many different - and interesting - directions.

But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was instead suggesting that if Liselle or anyone wanted to explore a particular idea or topic - like Fu - that it would be best to do that in a new thread - instead of being in the midst of this one, where many people might not look to find it. And as noted, it was a suggestion.

Best, D
 

dfreed

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It's your thread, so if you're not bothered by it, fine.
IrfanK is not bothered by it and neither am I. In fact I wasn't clear what the issue was (since threads often - or quite often - go off in different directions), but it seems cleared up regardless.

Best, D
 

Sparhawk

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It's your thread, so if you're not bothered by it, fine. It probably won't make Hilary unhappy, not to move a bunch of posts. Venturing a guess.

I'm all in for bothering @hilary, even when's not necessary, as in this case... 🤪
 

Liselle

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@Sparhawk seguing to elephants in the room - what made you change your signature after years and decades? 😲
 

Sparhawk

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@Sparhawk seguing to elephants in the room - what made you change your signature after years and decades? 😲

You know, I always wonder how many miles that little dragon, one in each of my posts, over almost 20 years of using it, has traveled... I don't know, really. Perhaps I'm being nice by changing that pesky little green dragon for my version of Mephistopheles. It will pass. I know where that creature lives and I might bring it back...
 

hilary

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It probably won't make Hilary unhappy, not to move a bunch of posts.
Not inconsolably so, no.

However, I am very disconcerted by the disappearance of small green dragon. Where has he gone?
 

Sparhawk

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Not inconsolably so, no.

However, I am very disconcerted by the disappearance of small green dragon. Where has he gone?

❤️❤️❤️ It warms my heart the little guy is so popular. Go get them, little Aerouant!! Bite softly!
 

IrfanK

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Which opens up the next question: if we could establish beyond doubt that it meant 'captives' when it was first written, and it has meant 'sincerity' for maybe a couple of millennia, what is it saying when you cast Hexagram 61 today?
I have pondered on your question quite a lot while I'm going through Field (and re-reading Marshall, and waiting impatiently for the copy shop to finish binding Shaughnessey's thesis). Your example is a tricky one, because there's such little obvious connection between the two concepts. Far more often, it's like 27, where you get the later, rather ethereal idea of spiritual nourishment and sustenance. Then you look back and see the jaws of the animal being used as an oracle. But the ideas are still connected and you can see how one evolves into the other, how they are related.

By the way, I looked at your book again to see how you dealt with 55, after reading Marshall. I thought it was great how you did exactly that, examined how the older story could possibly be related to abundance. Hehe. Although I noticed you tactfully refrained from actually using the word "eclipse."
 

Sparhawk

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Which opens up the next question: if we could establish beyond doubt that it meant 'captives' when it was first written, and it has meant 'sincerity' for maybe a couple of millennia, what is it saying when you cast Hexagram 61 today?

Since you brought it up, @IrfanK and @hilary , about that question, given the context of the times and their preoccupation with war and sacrifice, I would be more inclined to consider the original meaning as "captives", just for the sake of simplicity. I would presume that "sincerity", as we understand the word in English, wasn't much of a concept when they had other relative concepts, such as "truthfulness" and "honor". On the other hand, "captives" were like heads of cattle... Pardon the brutality...

Now, how in the world we can go from "captives" to "sincerity", well, that would take a whole other level of semiotics to figure out.
 

hilary

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❤️❤️❤️ It warms my heart the little guy is so popular. Go get them, little Aerouant!! Bite softly!
Hooray! Delighted to see him.

I have pondered on your question quite a lot while I'm going through Field (and re-reading Marshall, and waiting impatiently for the copy shop to finish binding Shaughnessey's thesis). Your example is a tricky one, because there's such little obvious connection between the two concepts. Far more often, it's like 27, where you get the later, rather ethereal idea of spiritual nourishment and sustenance. Then you look back and see the jaws of the animal being used as an oracle. But the ideas are still connected and you can see how one evolves into the other, how they are related.
I can imagine 'bringing home captives to prove we actually fought the war at all' connected to 'inspiring trust' - but it does take a fairly elastic sort of imagination.
By the way, I looked at your book again to see how you dealt with 55, after reading Marshall. I thought it was great how you did exactly that, examined how the older story could possibly be related to abundance. Hehe. Although I noticed you tactfully refrained from actually using the word "eclipse."
Ah. Actually, in 2010 I cheerfully talked about eclipses. Then I read Pankenier on the subject of Marshall and decided discretion (and 'startling anomalies'!) was the better part of valour.
Since you brought it up, @IrfanK and @hilary , about that question, given the context of the times and their preoccupation with war and sacrifice, I would be more inclined to consider the original meaning as "captives", just for the sake of simplicity. I would presume that "sincerity", as we understand the word in English, wasn't much of a concept when they had other relative concepts, such as "truthfulness" and "honor". On the other hand, "captives" were like heads of cattle... Pardon the brutality...
Yes, but... the Shijing, chunks of which are more or less contemporary with the Yi, uses 孚 to mean 'trust'. So reading it the same way in the Yi is simple enough for me.
 

Sparhawk

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Yes, but... the Shijing, chunks of which are more or less contemporary with the Yi, uses 孚 to mean 'trust'. So reading it the same way in the Yi is simple enough for me.

Good point.
 

IrfanK

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Ah. Actually, in 2010 I cheerfully talked about eclipses. Then I read Pankenier on the subject of Marshall and decided discretion (and 'startling anomalies'!) was the better part of valour.
Bit of a spoil sport, isn't he?
 

dfreed

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Ah. Actually, in 2010 I cheerfully talked about eclipses. Then I read Pankenier on the subject of Marshall and decided discretion (and 'startling anomalies'!) was the better part of valour.
I'm not familiar with what Pankenier says in relation Marshall, and Hex. 55 and it's thick screens, curtains, eclipses, 'plough at noon', pole star, Big Dipper, etc. Anything anyone can share? And is this another example of how words, phrases change and evolve, and are interpreted/translated in different ways?

Thanks, D
 

Sparhawk

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I'm not familiar with what Pankenier says in relation Marshall, and Hex. 55 and it's thick screens, curtains, eclipses, 'plough at noon', pole star, Big Dipper, etc. Anything anyone can share? And is this another example of how words, phrases change and evolve, and are interpreted/translated in different ways?

Thanks, D

Oh boy... It got ugly... But it wasn't just Pankenier. Bent Nielsen as well. But I have a private communication from Steve, from 2010, that explains his position and opinion of Pankenier. I think is fair to also give his side of that equation. We were discussing about articles in the journal Early China. (I'll post as a picture to slow crawlers a bit...):

Sandpiper iMac Desktop 2021-03-31 at 13.26.58.png

Pankenier's review is attached. Ah, but Bent Nielsen goes into great detail about it, 17 pages of it... Also attached to this.
 

Attachments

  • Review - The Mandate of Heaven, Marshall, Pankenier.pdf
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  • Gmail - [yixue] Marshall_ Mandate of Heaven - review.pdf
    932.4 KB · Views: 4

dfreed

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Oh boy... It got ugly... But it wasn't just Pankenier. Bent Nielsen as well.
Thanks for sharing. As far as I can tell, Pankenier and others questioned Marshall's interpretation that the screens and curtains in Hex. 55 refer to a solar eclipse - and more broadly, that Marshall found historic references and events in many - or many all? - of the hexagrams. I think they also questioned his scholarship and research. Do I have that correct?

Sorry if I've lost the 'thread' here, but I'm also unclear what Hilary and Irfan's intent ( @IrfanK @hilary ), understanding, reasons for sharing, etc. are? I'm not offering a critique; I'm just trying to understand what is being shared and why?

I'm assuming that this is related to the 'Fu' discussion, and is about how words / phrases from the Zhouyi change or are translated / interpreted differently - is that correct?

Regards, D
 

Sparhawk

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Methinks you are looking for a stiffer structure in threads but, if experience serves me well (and I've barely posted much of anything here in the past few years...), threads in Clarity follow the same metabolic tendencies as human bodies: When you feed them lots of junk calories they grow in their girth but not in their stature... On the other hand, that's why we are all so jovial.
 

dfreed

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Methinks you are looking for a stiffer structure in threads but,
No, I'm not looking for a 'stiffer structure' in the threads - far from it. I'm just wanting to more fully understand some things / ideas that have been shared here. Hex. 55 seems full of possibilities; heck, Rutt's translation of Line 55.2 even has 'Sacrificing captives who plead submission'!

Best, D
 

Sparhawk

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No, I'm not looking for a 'stiffer structure' in the threads - far from it. I'm just wanting to more fully understand some things / ideas that have been shared here. Hex. 55 seems full of possibilities; heck, Rutt's translation of Line 55.2 even has 'Sacrificing captives who plead submission'!

Best, D

It is full of possibilities!! Not sure anyone can "fully understand" it though. You can only interpret it and even that is a moving target given changing contexts when used in divination.
 

dfreed

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Not sure anyone can "fully understand" it though.
A better way to phrase it is: I want to know more about what people had in mind with their posts and what they said, so we can more fully explore it. "Full understanding" - like a stiffer structure - are not my goals.
 

IrfanK

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Hey David,

You can download Marshall's Mandate of Heaven for free. He made it available because he was pissed off at his publishers for printing so many typos and errors and then ignoring his requests to fix them. I thoroughly recommend it. It's an absolutely gripping read, and even if you don't buy into his conclusions, he sets out all the legends surrounding the vileness of the late Shang dynasty and the valour of the early Zhou dynasty extremely well. Da Ji, the Shang king's evil concubine, and her tendency to cut pregnant women open to examine the fetus to test her ability to predict the sex of the child, the greased pole set over the bed of hot coals, that kind of thing.

https://www.biroco.com/yijing/mandate/index.htm

Incidentally, I put "Da Ji" through the YouTube search engine the other day, and there are hundreds of clips showing the evil queen, transforming herself into a multi-tailed fox and so on. She's obviously secured herself a place in Chinese history and mythology.

I'm not in a position to judge Pankenier's review or his criticisms. It is worth pointing out that, like Harmen and Hilary and a few other very interesting commentators on the Yijing, Marshall is an autodidact, without formal qualifications in sinology. Some people might say that the criticisms of him reflect the distaste of academics for people who trespass on their turf.

All I can say is Marshall is a wonderful story teller. And he has had an influence on interpretation. Field (who does have formal qualifications) was clearly influenced by him and continued with his efforts to find links between historic events and the text of the Zhouyi. Karcher completely bought into his interpretation of 55. And I was teasing Hilary before, she was obviously open to his ideas, with some reservations.

Here's the blurb:

The mysteries of the ancient Chinese text known as the I Ching continue to fascinate scholars and enthusiasts alike. While sinologists rely on historical criticism to explain the meaning of the work, those who use it for divination tend to accept without question the traditional account of its origin and purpose. Whereas modern scholars are generally dismissive of the book's reputed mystical significance, traditionalists often resent academic research into the oracle because it seems irreverent or iconoclastic. In The Mandate of Heaven, S. J. Marshall sets out to reconcile these opposing approaches. He plumbs the book's numerous, hidden historical references, reading them against other sources, and discovers that the oracle has far more narrative integrity and basis in historical fact than anyone has previously appreciated.

The Mandate of Heaven focuses on the story of the I Ching's origins. The book is attributed to King Wen, who died before he could succeed in overthrowing the tyrannical Shang dynasty. His son, King Wu, eventually triumphed over the Shang and established the Zhou dynasty as the legitimate royal house. According to the tradition, these events are in some ways alluded to in the earliest layer of commentary in the I Ching, but no sound historical basis has been discovered to substantiate this claim. Consequently, since the 1930s sinologists have discounted the value of this tradition. Marshall uncovers an account of Wu's conquest in an important, previously overlooked passage that tells of a solar eclipse believed by the King to have been an omen from Heaven to immediately march against the Shang. Marshall is able to match this account with a scientifically verified solar eclipse that took place on June 20, 1070 B.C., just one of his many historical readings that show how the earliest layer of the I Ching has preserved a hidden history that has remained undetected for three millennia.
 
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hilary

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I want to know more about what people had in mind with their posts and what they said
By and large, I say what I have in mind ;) , but please do quote anything you'd like me to say more about.
 

Liselle

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<never mind, answered my own question, sorry>
 
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