Grief that is comfortable?

[arabella]

I continue to wonder about someone whom I've gone places with from time to time, who remains on the verges of life, but never really steps in. My intuition says, he wishes he could, but he's reticent and I'm not going to pursue him, I just wonder. He is a widower who seemed to get mired in grief to a certain extent. Oddly, in their marriage of some years, he worked the last twenty of those years in the City and she lived so far away they only saw each other on weekends, so it's a bit difficult to understand why life on his own is such a shock. From my point of view, it's hard to participate in conversations about someone I never met and when he takes off on those tangents three years into our friendship, I've run out of things to say. As he's a fairly deliberate type [and I wouldn't imagine into self-flagellation] I asked his plan in regard to his deceased spouse:

Hexagram 6.1.4 becoming Hexagram 61.

Hmm. As I've enquired on his plan, I'm thinking he debates this with himself, finds no truly firm footing to arguing for something that doesn't serve and has a change of heart? The outcome is something of Truth anyway, so that's positive no matter what it means.

 

[Trojina]

No idea how one can have a 'plan' about a deceased spouse ? What do you mean ? The sentence about finding no firm footing lost me. No 'firm footing' for what ?

you sound kinda impatient with his grieving...but if he talks about her alot its a good signal he needs you know shes very important to him still and so its a signal hes not ready for a relationship with you....or at least he'd need you to know his heart is still with her...as part of it always will be of course.

But it also depends how long ago his wife died doesn't it, whether or not she plays a part in his decision whether to have another relationship

 

[arabella]

I think the word "plan" is for lack of a better one. I use it in relation to him because he tends to always have an idea where he is headed -- something I rarely have myself, but that I admire him for.

The "no firm footing" was from a phrase I read in relation to line one, Hexagram 6 and the types of argument [internal?] that I am imagining it indicates, or whatever else it could mean??

We've been in this position for nearly three years now. There are couple things that make it difficult. One is the times when this isn't the centre of discussion and it's possible to see how pleasant a future could be without this problem. The other is running into the moments I've described where it's been said again and again and I have no more to say about a person I don't know. And, finally, wondering if this is the way life would be with this person permanently, which is really the point of my enquiry.

 

[arabella]

What should the question have been to know what I'm hoping to know?

 

[arabella]

OK. Gloves off. I asked flat out: Yi, is he the one for me?

The casting: Hexagram 53 unchanging.

Hmm, not sure I'm young enough to wait for hex 53 unchanging. Opinions?

 

[Trojina]

What should the question have been to know what I'm hoping to know?

well i think you did get an answer to the question you needed to know...6.1.4 >61 seems general advice to you to let this go...its too much trouble, you'd be fighting all the way and for what.

The man is bereaved so it seems strange to me you see it as a 'problem'...like you just want him to hurry up and get on with it. Thats not going to happen is it.

53 shows gradual progress and yes it can be so gradual as to appear not to be movng at all...but whats the rush. However as its unchanging one might ask gradual progress towards what ?

I'm seeing this more from his POV than from yours having been in his position . Maybe he likes your company, wants to see you but also wants to be clear hes not ready to have a relationship...and also if you genuinely care about him that includes caring about his current place with regard to his loss. Not a great place to start a romantic relationship with him...which I think is what the 6.1.4 was about (for you)...but thats not a shortcoming on his part is it ? You are arguing internally with the reality of his position perhaps. If you want something to happen 53 looks like it may very gradually...but in order to allow it happen so gradually i think you'd have to really shift your view since I get the impression you are kind of tapping your foot and sighing and waiting for him to get over it....I think that may be the thing you need to drop ? Even if you did try to stop the foot tapping that wouldn't guarantee progress as you want it...so I think all you can give is your genuine care not counting on romance as a development

 

[sooo]

Oh wow, Arabella, can I empathize with that! Going on 66 and still told to be patient to wait for the maiden who, in the long run, will be my partner, whenever I become proactive in seeking such compatibility in a relationship. It's difficult not to come to the conclusion that the Yi gods either enjoy f***ing with my head for their humorous pleasure, or the maiden that's referred to is none other than spiritual union, completion and ones own wholeness and happiness, sans dependency on someone outside of myself.

I have very little confidence in Yi's answers when it comes to matters of that kind of love, with the exception of 54's council to fix my attention upon that which lasts beyond the ephemeral, I can't help but think that 53 and 54 are intended as a pair.

I don't mean to be a negative Nellie, but I've just seen this play out this way too many times to place confidence in any other intention, not only in my life and readings, but in general.

Nevertheless, best of luck in accomplishing the blissful union you seek.

 

[arabella]

I am impatient and, maybe it's unfair to him because of the times he's tried to be romantic and accomodating and half pulled it off -- and half not -- much to his chagrin I am sure -- but those efforts on his part only made it worse. When I first moved here we were rather "thrown" at each other by well intended friends and perhaps he felt challenged to take up the gauntlet. I knew nothing about any of it but later realised his wife had been dead only a matter of months. Since then, he periodically suggests something and we go to a concert, dinner, and have a grand time, as we both acknowledge and he mentions to everyone in the neighbourhood. Except I know that there will be nothing to follow for a while as he apparently goes elsewhere to ruminate. I've also had the experience of being in his home at the wee hours and one of his adult children rings up and I'm fairly ejected from the house so that he can speak with them. He tries to be suave with this, but that's the effect overall. I do feel sorry that he is so torn, so guilty, so embarrassed, and such a nice person, all in one. It's confusing and I know he's attracted to me and I am to him. But -- some of this is -- i don't know, victorian?

Other than that, three years, at my stage of life, is a long time that I may be wasting. It's not that I don't know what grief is about, my Mother and I are the only adult members of our family still standing, I've buried all the rest -- father, grandparents, aunts and uncles, siblings, and my husband -- all within less than a decade and some of them quite untimely including my husband who left me with three children to raise -- but I do know that life is quite short and if you want to live in the past you will find yourself living there alone before long. That may sound horribly cold, but as a woman, rather than a man who remain fascinating until their dying day to many women, I don't think i've got forever to make sense of partnershp -- if I'm going to as Sooooo says.

I suppose the Yi is saying, with this fella in mind, it's wait indefinitely or give up. I kind of knew that I suppose.

 

[Trojina]

so why don't you tell him all that ?

You don't actually know the reasons he doesn't seem to be that keen on being properly in a relationship with you...it may not be all to do with this dead wife but perhaps changes in him...perhaps he prefers being footloose and fancy free., perhaps he likes the space, perhaps he doesn't want to be accountable to a woman etc etc You sound like you think hes making excuses or if he doesn't stop living in the past he'll be alone which is just a threat...maybe he wants to be alone.....why would he be alone anyway just because he doesn't want to be in a couple .... so all I'm saying is you need to say those things to him don't you ? You obviously feel quite annoyed with him like hes wasting your time which i suppose he was if he was sometimes being romantic

Maybe theres the hex 6

or maybe the hex 6 was in him afterall

 

[rosada]

Going back to your original question about what's his Plan.
6.1 makes me think he doesn't have a plan at all. He tried going out with you, there's been a bit of gossip in the neighborhood, but he really hasn't tacked the project of moving on with his life.
6.4 sounds like his "plan" is to just decide it's his fate to be a widower from now on.

Interesting you who are so aware that life is for the living have been brought together with him. Perhaps he is not necessarily The One for you, but it may be by sharing your own experiences - talking more frankly as Trojan suggests - you'll be able to help him as a friend even if you don't become closer.

Of course, maybe he doesn't need your "help." Maybe he's really quite content with his life and his memories. You wont know unless you talk.

I think 61 is encouraging you to be honest with him and I think 53 is cautioning you that the Gradual Progress may not necessarily lead to partnership. You may find as you talk honestly and as the inner feelings are made clear that you don't want to go all the way down this road.

There are some Bach Flowers that are specifically for dealing with Grief.

Best wishes,
rosada

 

[arabella]

Going back to your original question about what's his Plan.
6.1 makes me think he doesn't have a plan at all. He tried going out with you, there's been a bit of gossip in the neighborhood, but he really hasn't tacked the project of moving on with his life.
6.4 sounds like his "plan" is to just decide it's his fate to be a widower from now on.

Interesting you who are so aware that life is for the living have been brought together with him. Perhaps he is not necessarily The One for you, but it may be by sharing your own experiences - talking more frankly as Trojan suggests - you'll be able to help him as a friend even if you don't become closer.

Of course, maybe he doesn't need your "help." Maybe he's really quite content with his life and his memories. You wont know unless you talk.

I think 61 is encouraging you to be honest with him and I think 53 is cautioning you that the Gradual Progress may not necessarily lead to partnership. You may find as you talk honestly and as the inner feelings are made clear that you don't want to go all the way down this road.There are some Bach Flowers that are specifically for dealing with Grief.

Best wishes,
rosada

As I reflect on it the biggest frustration is that the apparent "agenda" with him keeps changing and is so back and forth we never have a consistency of our contacts to get into talking very much about our feelings. Simlarly, I would just like to know him well enough, without all the blips and interruptions in between that I could be clear myself whether I like him that much. When Trojan says, if you care for him, then be patient -- i don't know how much I do care, we never have gotten that far. I'd like to know, but he keeps disappearing and then reappearing leaving large holes in the proceedings.

In the way that I've been able to know him, I like him very much but have loads of questions that can't be answered because there's always some event that we're involved in, some dinner party or other gathering. I've never even figured out what had him coming on so strong several times and then these lapses like nothing had happened. The repetitiveness of that cycle makes me feel that he keeps starting out on something of a quest for a new future -- and then finds he can't go through with it.

Right now, he calls me on the phone and we chat in no particular context at all. He's expressed concern about all the issues that have been flying in my life at times, and tried to offer suggestions which I really do appreciate. But I just don't know if we'll ever get past this speed bump in the road. Perhaps, as Trojan says, it's about something other than his wife but my perception, and that of those who know him otherwise, is that he's lonely and having trouble facing what comes next. Quite possibly he has to work that out himself. Quite possibly I'm not the one to compare notes with because as you say Rosada, I can only mourn so long and then I have to live.

 

[Trojina]

I do feel sorry that he is so torn, so guilty, so embarrassed, and such a nice person, all in one. It's confusing and I know he's attracted to me and I am to him. But -- some of this is -- i don't know, victorian?

Other than that, three years, at my stage of life, is a long time that I may be wasting. It's not that I don't know what grief is about, my Mother and I are the only adult members of our family still standing, I've buried all the rest -- father, grandparents, aunts and uncles, siblings, and my husband -- all within less than a decade and some of them quite untimely including my husband who left me with three children to raise -- but I do know that life is quite short and if you want to live in the past you will find yourself living there alone before long. That may sound horribly cold, but as a woman, rather than a man who remain fascinating until their dying day to many women, I don't think i've got forever to make sense of partnershp -- if I'm going to as Sooooo says.

I suppose the Yi is saying, with this fella in mind, it's wait indefinitely or give up. I kind of knew that I suppose.

. Quite possibly I'm not the one to compare notes with because as you say Rosada, I can only mourn so long and then I have to live.

Its only 3 years since his wife died. The first year after her death surely noone would expect him to launch straight into a full time relationship..or possibly any relationship, of course people vary...but anyhow I don't think it at all unusual or unreasonable that in this length of time he is reticent or uncommitted to making another relationship. Infact it seems quite usual he might consider some fairly light relationship stuff about the 3rd year...and it sounds like hes aiming for fairly light stuff with you. Mourning is still part of life, he is living just as much as you are.

I mean theres no set time on these things, its very individual and it may be along time before, when he closes his eyes when he makes love he doesn't see his wifes face instead of yours....you can't rush these things in other people. but you seem to have decided that his timing is unhealthy or self indulgent whereas to me its seems quite normal .


I don't see that hes taking an inordinate amount of time to come to terms with himself and whats happened...maybe he thought it self evident, didn't need explaining that he'd hardly be able to be a full on 100% present in a new relationship.

Still I suppose he owes it to you to let you know where you stand with him.....or maybe he thinks you are quite relaxed with it and don't mind all his comings and goings. I guess you either need to decide you want to hang around for this and take it as it comes or let it go..... so thats why you asked about his plan with his dead wife. Well i guess there alot of hex 6 in all this. 6.1 drops it...6.4 seems to say there is a purpose, a mandate in the very contention ? well i never did get 6.4..

 

[arabella]

Trojan, funny to say that those who practically threw him into my path the moment I moved here are a married couple, who both lost a spouse and got right back on the horse. I suppose there are so many ways to face these things. And, despite their jumping right back into marriage -- they are fine -- quite happy. I guess they thought he would be fine too. And I knew nothing about him at that point.

What I most wish is that he would make up his mind -- realising that sometimes what means a great deal to women is just something to do for men and he may not realise that his ambivalance [which is rather evident] hurts after a while. He's a person of integrity so I know he's not playing me for a fool. I suppose the antagonistic part is that it's very difficult for me to hold everything in abeyance, particularly as I have no idea if this is "it" or if some day there is a breakthrough. If he wants a pal, I'm not the one; it's not like that.

He isn't entirely unmindful, I am sure, of his limits in approaching a new relationship, and I imagine he realises that he keeps me spinning in some respects, but understanding the full effect on a woman as he blinks on and off entirely at times, is quite another thing. I believe he hasn't a clue how unfair he is at times, and his own pain is his sole priority. I'll give it some more thought and decide what, if anything, to say to him. Thanks for your counsel. XO Arabella

 

[rosada]

I wonder if it would be helpful to ask a different question. It reads like you are assuming he might be a worthy partner if he could get through the grieving process but as you didn't meet him until after the wife passed I wonder if what your are interpreting as unusual behavior might actually be his style even under the best of circumstances. Perhaps you should ask something like, "What is the nature of our friendship?" or "What is the potential?"
rosada.

 

[rodaki]

hello N,

My thoughts go along Trojan's posts on this . . No matter how structured he might be at other parts of his life, I don't think there can be a plan where emotions are involved . . With this in mind maybe his 6 to 61 is about him wanting to have a plan, or setting forth a plan only to back down when facing the truth of this inner process . . the back-and-forth pattern could suggest something of that kind too . .

 

[arabella]

Yes, Rosada, this is my concern too. I'm making this assumption because he's presenting himself, from time to time, as somebody I should be interested in. I like what I see when I see it. But I can't get close enough consistently to really know WHAT I'm seeing -- and what i'm not.

 

[Trojina]

Yes, Rodaki, this is my concern too. I'm making this assumption because he's presenting himself, from time to time, as somebody I should be interested in. I like what I see when I see it. But I can't get close enough consistently to really know WHAT I'm seeing -- and what i'm not.

Yes it seems like hes a 'candidate' for the role of 'partner' yet you've said several times that in 3 years you don't know how much you like him or care about him. Then you sound impatient that you don't have the chance to know if you like or care about him and want him to kind of 'get on with it'

But if you aren't that enamoured with him why would you want to be his partner and why would you be waiting for him to make his mind up ? It sounds like you want the partnership more than you want him, as if there is this expectation you have placed on yourself and him that theres a vacancy to be filled and he may qualify...if only his pesky individuality and feelings didn't get in the way.

I agree with Rosada that you probably have seen him as he is but you are hanging on in the hope theres more hidden away there. I can't see you are doing yourself any favours...or him. Seems the best thing would be to either take it for what it is or if its too little just leave it behind.

You say you can't get close to him but how can you when you already don't accept how he is, how he does things, how he feels. You seem to think he 'should' just move on straight away like his friends...I see no reason why he should do anything with regard to his loss other than in his way at his own time. You will never get close to him unless you accept who he is right now...but as you don't accept him now why will you in the future ?


With respect I feel you objectify him with terms like 'I like what I see when I see it'...but what does that have to do with loving him or caring about him or even accepting him...makes him sound like a car you may or may not buy

No rudeness intended, well no hostility intended, I think I can't help but sound rude in merely expressing the opinion...but I'm very 38 with you on this. I think it would be good for you to drop the idea of him as 'candidate' for the job of your partner and allow closeness, if you want it, by accepting him as he is and respecting his feelings as he is now. There will be no perfect future closeness when hes 'planned' his deceased wife away since if you can't know and accept him now then why would you when he's filed his wife away in a drawer marked 'not to be dwelt upon'

 

[arabella]

It isn't my nature to not allow closeness and this is a lot of my own problem. Not being critical or self-protective enough I've already been through two disastrous situations that I won't elaborate on here, but consultation with a clinical psychologist friend would say that I have to pay much better attention this time and not let my heart run away with me. Well, I will elaborate enough to say that I ended up marrying a violent person twice and both times I couldn't have been more thoroughly shocked. The first I was married to for two decades to someone who gradually killed himself with drinking, the second a much shorter time and I more quickly figured it out -- but I lost half of everything I owned over that mistake.

The psychologist tells me the earmarks were distinctly there and I ignored them. And I knew each of them for four years before marriage was considered. Maybe it's a bit overboard just how circumspect I'm being after all of that. And maybe it's not fair to this guy who didn't do a thing amiss, except perhaps get a bit over-enthusiastic for what he could ultimately sustain. In our own ways, we are both struggling and maybe that's what needs to be said. We each have our strengths in this situation and our glaring weaknesses. It's difficult for me to trust anybody, let alone someone who appears and disappears so much. I want to be accepting of whatever he needs to do, but it's somewhat against the advice I have otherwise not to fall in with men anymore that I have to feel sorry for. There are loads of reasons to do it and I'm a past-expert on the subject.

All the same, I suppose after a certain point in life it's not likely you will meet anybody without a "history" and some baggage. Maybe as much as anything I'm wondering how to work around our combined luggage here, and it's complicated. And as I work it through trying to figure out exactly what I'm saying, if I follow the advice of a psychologist who has warned me where I've gone wrong in the past, it all comes out sounding rather cold, which isn't really how I feel -- it's more how I think I'd better feel.

 

[arabella]

Yes it seems like hes a 'candidate' for the role of 'partner' yet you've said several times that in 3 years you don't know how much you like him or care about him. Then you sound impatient that you don't have the chance to know if you like or care about him and want him to kind of 'get on with it'

But if you aren't that enamoured with him why would you want to be his partner and why would you be waiting for him to make his mind up ? It sounds like you want the partnership more than you want him, as if there is this expectation you have placed on yourself and him that theres a vacancy to be filled and he may qualify...if only his pesky individuality and feelings didn't get in the way.

I agree with Rosada that you probably have seen him as he is but you are hanging on in the hope theres more hidden away there. I can't see you are doing yourself any favours...or him. Seems the best thing would be to either take it for what it is or if its too little just leave it behind.

You say you can't get close to him but how can you when you already don't accept how he is, how he does things, how he feels. You seem to think he 'should' just move on straight away like his friends...I see no reason why he should do anything with regard to his loss other than in his way at his own time. You will never get close to him unless you accept who he is right now...but as you don't accept him now why will you in the future ?


With respect I feel you objectify him with terms like 'I like what I see when I see it'...but what does that have to do with loving him or caring about him or even accepting him...makes him sound like a car you may or may not buy

No rudeness intended, well no hostility intended, I think I can't help but sound rude in merely expressing the opinion...but I'm very 38 with you on this. I think it would be good for you to drop the idea of him as 'candidate' for the job of your partner and allow closeness, if you want it, by accepting him as he is and respecting his feelings as he is now. There will be no perfect future closeness when hes 'planned' his deceased wife away since if you can't know and accept him now then why would you when he's filed his wife away in a drawer marked 'not to be dwelt upon'

Trojan,

I know your intentions, your mode of expression well enough not to think of you as rude. I realise you are direct and this is your way. It doesn't bother me when you "cut to the chase." Anyway, if it prevents me doing something stupid, you've saved my feelings in the longrun quite a lot! BTW, you can't usually tell if you're "enamoured" of somebody if they have you on a yoyo -- how ever kind they may otherwise be. The scenery has to be allowed to settle and then maybe you can tell what of them is really stable. Thanx

 

[rosada]

Interesting that he drifts in and out with you. It reads as if he was like that with his wife only it wasn't so obvious because they didn't live together so the drifting aback and forth seemed more like a logistics thing than personalities. He may actually be quite content with your "relationship" and have no idea life has greater possibilities! Mercury turns direct April 23 - time to start talking!

rosada

 

[arabella]

Interesting that he drifts in and out with you. It reads as if he was like that with his wife only it wasn't so obvious because they didn't live together so the drifting aback and forth seemed more like a logistics thing than personalities. He may actually be quite content with your "relationship" and have no idea life has greater possibilities! Mercury turns direct April 23 - time to start talking!

rosada

This is a fascinating thought. I'd never have thought of it myself. You're right too -- I read astrology [this is a Taurus/Leo relationship] and just have the feeling there's something brewing soon and I'd better be ready. So, first of all, I'm talking to myself about what might happen and if I'm ready or not for something to change -- and to all of you too! XO Arabella

ps sorry for anything disjointed, misspelled, etc. trying to write from work [i shouldn't be] as home internet is bonkers until i am in my new place early May! ahahahaha

 

[rodaki]

..but I'm very 38 with you on this.

this might be slightly off topic but I loved reading this part and it made me think that what you did Trojan by expressing yourself was not only saying what you thought, but in a way giving a voice to that 6, bringing it to life . . that's divining in a whole different level -at least it is in my eyes- and I'm happy seeing this side of it . . . :bows:

 

[arabella]

This was a really thought-provoking and somewhat mind-bending discussion and since it closed the other day I've been thinking what exactly gets to me so much about the situation with this man and why I feel such a strong need to "resolve" something with him or simply move away. And also why I place equal responsibility on him to do something about it -- although he is pursuing me while in mourning for someone else.

First, I suppose I've never had the luxury of mourning on and on and on. I don't even know how to do it because tragedies have been back to back in my life and you just have to keep going -- something I've taught all of my children who lost their Dad, grandparents, home, school, friends, stability, all in a short space of time; who have spent much of their adolescent years just making do financially, living hand-to-mouth if need be, in six different countries and God-knows how many schools, just figuring it out emotionally having already dealt with an abusive parent who had no excuse as he was a clinical psychologist. Much that is inexplicable and we just had to cope, and are all still coping because before he left us permanently, he made sure he left us nothing of his substantial wealth either.

It's not that I feel like making direct comparisons, but I look at a man [the one sporadically courting me now] who had forty years of an amazing relationship with someone, four kids upon whom he could lavish everything they might want, huge financial security, two gorgeous homes, and a substantial community position. Except for the loss of his wife three years ago, the worst thing I've ever seen him have to deal with is that they discontinued his brand of kippers at the local shop and I helped him to find another source. So when I think of the way he goes on and on and on about loss I just feel I can't stand being dragged down by him when he gets into that mode. My kids and I have dealt with loss, not just of a loved one, but of absolutely everything and every shred of stability, several times over and in countries where we were "foreigners" with no entitlement, and could barely speak the language. He can't even imagine and i don't want to discuss it.

To my way of thinking he's got a problem that many would envy -- he lost someone who was kind and loving and looked after him even though he only appeared on weekends for twenty years. Lucky him. And my own beliefs about death say that mourning on and on deters the one you love from progress in the next world. They have gone on to a place of eternal happiness -- somewhere we'll all see some day. At least be happy for them. In the meanwhile, there has to be a reason that those who are left are still here on earth with something to learn, so best to get on with learning it.

Also, at his church he is surrounded by a group of women who are enjoying his misery with him, who promote it in every way and gossip endlessly about his "progress" or lack thereof. They seem to revel in the endlessness of it all and it gives them something to think. If I were him I'd never give them the satisfaction.

I suppose there are multiple layers to it all and the questions I have aren't really to do with his wife, or these women, or any of the details. As Rosada says, it has to do with whether there is a future to this because this is just one troublesome aspect I can't see my way around, while most else I know of him is lovely and kind and we get on well.

Also, for Trojan, I asked my clinical psychologist friend if I misunderstood something in thinking I should "vet" anybody who shows interest in me to this extent, as a potential partner, and get some ground rules straight BEFORE I commit my feelings and he says I am dead on in understanding that is exactly what he advised me to do. And it's precisely what I'm doing with this man because I want to have no illusions. Flowers and candy, dinner and concerts and lovely manners are great. But I need to know what he's made of and if he can stand up to the plate and pitch -- come what may -- because I've already known two who couldn't and am much worse for the wear.

 

[Trojina]

First, I suppose I've never had the luxury of mourning on and on and on. I don't even know how to do it because tragedies have been back to back in my life and you just have to keep going -- something I've taught all of my children who lost their Dad, grandparents, home, school, friends, stability, all in a short space of time; who have spent much of their adolescent years just making do financially, living hand-to-mouth if need be, in six different countries and God-knows how many schools, just figuring it out emotionally having already dealt with an abusive parent who had no excuse as he was a clinical psychologist. Much that is inexplicable and we just had to cope, and are all still coping because before he left us permanently, he made sure he left us nothing of his substantial wealth either.

thats you and your life not him.

It's not that I feel like making direct comparisons, but I look at a man [the one sporadically courting me now] who had forty years of an amazing relationship with someone, four kids upon whom he could lavish everything they might want, huge financial security, two gorgeous homes, and a substantial community position. Except for the loss of his wife three years ago, the worst thing I've ever seen him have to deal with is that they discontinued his brand of kippers at the local shop and I helped him to find another source. So when I think of the way he goes on and on and on about loss I just feel I can't stand being dragged down by him when he gets into that mode. My kids and I have dealt with loss, not just of a loved one, but of absolutely everything and every shred of stability, several times over and in countries where we were "foreigners" with no entitlement, and could barely speak the language. He can't even imagine and i don't want to discuss it.

when you see someone this way how can you have any future ?

To my way of thinking he's got a problem that many would envy -- he lost someone who was kind and loving and looked after him even though he only appeared on weekends for twenty years. Lucky him. And my own beliefs about death say that mourning on and on deters the one you love from progress in the next world. They have gone on to a place of eternal happiness -- somewhere we'll all see some day. At least be happy for them. In the meanwhile, there has to be a reason that those who are left are still here on earth with something to learn, so best to get on with learning it.

Arabella you sound resentful of him, like he had it so easy. So do you really want a relationship with someone whose feelings you don't accept and whom you seem to despise because he doesn't act like you and your family. ....You even resent his loss ...and think it 'lucky' ?!

I can't see how you can possibly say he has a problem some would envy....because you don't know everything about living from inside his consciousness do you. If he knew you had this attitude would he want to carry on ?

Also, at his church he is surrounded by a group of women who are enjoying his misery with him, who promote it in every way and gossip endlessly about his "progress" or lack thereof. They seem to revel in the endlessness of it all and it gives them something to think. If I were him I'd never give them the satisfaction.

I suppose there are multiple layers to it all and the questions I have aren't really to do with his wife, or these women, or any of the details. As Rosada says, it has to do with whether there is a future to this because this is just one troublesome aspect I can't see my way around, while most else I know of him is lovely and kind and we get on well.

You just sound resentful of him, like you don't even like him, you despise his feelings. Why don't you just let him go then because on your part there doesn't seem to be much empathy.

Also, for Trojan, I asked my clinical psychologist friend if I misunderstood something in thinking I should "vet" anybody who shows interest in me to this extent, as a potential partner, and get some ground rules straight BEFORE I commit my feelings and he says I am dead on in understanding that is exactly what he advised me to do. And it's precisely what I'm doing with this man because I want to have no illusions. Flowers and candy, dinner and concerts and lovely manners are great. But I need to know what he's made of and if he can stand up to the plate and pitch -- come what may -- because I've already known two who couldn't and am much worse for the wear.

my view is not connected to your clinical psychologist friends views . And anyway you don't have the option to commit do you...he isn't offering it. Of course anyone checks someone out one way or another before committing but 'vetting' is done naturally in the course of the relationship...you've found his emotional position unacceptable, hes made it unacceptable , hes said in effect 'I'm not really available' by talking often to you about his bereavement and chucking you out when his kids ring up.


Anyway if after 3 years you don't know what he wants, he hasn't made it clear and you despise him because you think he luxuriates in his grief I can't actually see a rosy future there so it is already resolved isn't it ? The only way it could progress it seems is if he orders his feelings in the way you and your family did...but then he wouldn't be him would he.

As ever probably the question is about what you are doing here rather than what he plans to do. I think in your shoes I may be tempted to be fairly straight with him ....because if he talks alot about his dead wife on dates then thats giving you a strong message he does not want you to even consider you may replace her.... Of course if he just talks about her as in things like "oh I went there with X and we did this and that " I guess thats unavoidable if he spent 20 years with her.

Then again I think I may not say anything because after 20 years of happy marriage it just doesn't seem realistic that hes going to launch in to a full on relationship a few years later. I don't think its realistic to expect it of everyone, some can some can't and I don't agree with you at all that theres any shame for those that can't

I'm not sure you are being realistic about his reality regardless of what you say your friends did..I'd imagine he'd need lots of space and time to gather his feelings about what he might want next in a relationship and meanwhile its probably just nice to take a woman out now and then..isn't that where hes at...If you don't like that then its your choice to take it or leave it isn't it.


(okay I know you heard my POV now so I will let you get on with it ....in other words I'll take a vow of silence...on this thread)

 

[Trojina]

oh and another thing...oops

its not just a question of grief as in sobbing and mourning etc in the time after bereavement there a heck of alot of evaluating, readjusting, thinking about the relationship, trying to make sense of things, thinking where you went wrong and where you didn't , finding where and how to keep your loved one within you...I guess its work trying to accomodate the change

How in the midst of all this psychic work one is doing is one expected to just blindly walk in to the next relationship because 'life is short'. Hang on it isn't short its eternal. No need to put ones whole emotional spiritual process on fast forward because someone else thinks you should because...because coupledom is holy and the path to all happiness ?

For young people maybe, but past a certain age with a few LTRs behind you you know it isn't the be all and end all don't you. Why would he rush....why would he. Why can't he just take as much time as he wants...


...resuming vow of silence

 

[arabella]

My dilemma going into this thread was that I like and admire a great deal about him. One of the strengths that we enjoy when we are together is that we are so different and teach each other a great deal that is interesting. Believe it or not, we laugh a lot too and are both a bit hesitant to call it a night and go home. His dilemmas over what to tell his kids about a woman in his house at 1 am. isn't intended, I don't believe, as a message to me, but is one of those parts of dating again he just never thought through. Anyway, it feels more juvenile than like a message I need to heed. Otherwise, I think he is "lucky" -- no matter what the problems he's had -- because somebody loved him. In contrast, I could tell him what it's like to be married for more than twenty years and find out you were never loved, just used.

Of course he has to do what he can. We all do. And people who are "available" at our age all have "stuff." If a clinical psychologist tell you that your "stuff" involves being an easy mark, you have to try to fix that too. So I'm learning where to draw the line and say "enough empathising time for what I need too." Maybe I'm being too harsh and react too soon or overboard. It's not my natural instinct, but one I'm trying to acquire so hearing again and again that this sounds "resentful" makes that process even harder for me to engage in. My point is, he has plenty of resources, which I don't, and I wouldn't lean on him like he does on me. Everybody has to be able to stand up straight coming into a relationship.

I hate being thought of as "mean" and I'm just the opposite by nature. After years of not being harsh enough and not reacting until I'm cooked "well done," maybe it's a bit mechanical where I draw the line and I have to back up a bit. It's not something I've done and I'll have to practice to get it right. Meanwhile I probably look tougher than I feel.

Needing practice on some life skills is one of the reasons I consult the Yi and try to draw a breath and think harder before I start asking him anything. I'd be great at sitting down and crying with him, or even for him or instead of him. It used to be a family joke that I am an "empath" -- that for instance I could be invited along to a funeral as moral support and that I'd end up crying harder than anyone else for a deceased person and bereft family whom I didn't know. The latest time this happened to me the immediate family of the deceased ended up comforting ME I was so distraught. I felt quite a liability and it occurred to me that if I started crying about all that hurts people I just might not stop.

I'm not disputing anything you say Trojan, on the whole. As much as I like him otherwise, I can't just discount that he is stymied by grief and prevented from a lot he enjoys, and also frustrated with it and using me to push against it. If I actively participate in this this with him, I fear that I'll potentially be living somebody else's life instead of my own. I've done similar things before, married it twice, but I know I'm not a counsellor nor a martyr, and I don't want that anymore. I've got to be practical, as hard as it is, as mechanical,unfamiliar or mean as it feels. This is an emotional exercise that is quite daunting, one I wish I didn't have to face, and trying to discuss it through in a public forum seems to make it worse than it already was.

 

[arabella]

Rather than continue trying to extract blood from a turnip -- I cast again in keeping with what Rosada was suggesting, to ask "What is the future of this relationship?"

Result: Hexagram 30.2.5 becoming Hexagram 1.

Wow, interesting that the fifth line mentions mourning in a way that would seem to be a catalyst, that seems a positive force or one that ends well. The context as Hex 1 would appear to be a creative resolution. That's actually more how it feels -- emotional, difficult, but ultimately positive and like the present obstacle could be a force for the good -- somehow. Having said that, I've never really understood Hexagram 30 very well. Change ignited by a lot of food for thought? The sum of small things becoming great? "Seizing the bright bird of opportunity" rings some bells and I suppose it's knowing when that moment is that matters most. I do know that no matter how the romantic aspect resolves, we will always be friends because we do have that regard for one another in a number of ways.