Happy Holidays.....and Question about 13

[peace]

Happy Holidays everyone and thanks for this community!

I've been studying #13 Fellowship With Men and I have a question about the hexagram as a whole.

First it talks alot about "factionalism" and people in little common groups - but then it says that the leader must organize and differentiate people or it would lead to chaos.

So - which is it? Is it merely a question of a balance?

I am also interested in anyone's interpretation of Line 2.

Thanks,
Rosalie

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Rosalie-
I read the Da Xiang of 13 as "distinguishes the beings according to kind and family", with distinguishing meaning understands in specific detail.
We group around our campfires, under the stars, according to what we have most in common, and what we hold in consensus. This is a long way from universal. And evolutionary psychologists suggest that we are at our most natural in these smaller groups, the size of hunter-gatherer bands, extended families and tribes. If we could only solve our little xenophobia problem. It's this xenophobia problem, in fact, that is the subject matter of several of the lines, or getting past our differences. Line 2 is this at its worst, fellowship (only) within the clan - rabid factionalism and xenophobia, maybe best illustrated by the KKK and other white supremacists, or even by the typical my-way-only Christians. This is fellowhip founded on negation, not on affirmation. It's a great poverty of the spirit.

 

[peace]

Thanks Bradford.
After I wrote this, I checked out your site and it helped me to understand.
I enjoy how you look at the hexagrams and the words in a very comprehensive, full perspective. I also like how you define the words and give a full image.

Thanks again,
Rosalie

 

[hilary]

An alternative view, for the heck of it. You're forming fellowship, perhaps cautiously contemplating an alliance with Them Over There, and you enter the ancestral temple. You compare your own mentality with the ancestral ideal, and of course you feel ashamed.

 

[peace]

Thanks Hilary.
I just read tonight - in Wilheim, that 13 is an ideal and each of the lines indicates a shortcoming. What you're saying about Them Over There makes sense, because it is so hard to be universally open to everyone.

 

[bradford_h]

The natural way for humankind is to grow from our place, from our own environmental niches, our own watersheds. Global culture and mobility has compromised this a lot since the Yi was written, but that basis at least as metaphor still holds. Seeing new niches and watersheds requires the courage to "cross the great streams", as it says in the judgment of Gua 13, to see how the others live, to put ourselves in their palces. Also, in the Fan Yao, 01.2, one is ready to get out in the field, to get exposed beyond the home life and base, to diversify, to get the broader experience that the field implies, to meet with one who gets around and has overview, i.e. the dragon or the great human being. I still think that 13.2 is about the dangers and embarrassment of the clannish and parochial limitations that hold us inside our narrow and xenophobic social confines.

 

[bruce]

Also, when you?re too weak to live your own way, to think your own thoughts, to have your own beliefs and style, you join with others not out of love of humanity and life, but because you feel protected and safe. Hence even thieves and murderers enjoy fellowship with each other.

 

[lightofdarkness]

The ICPlus focus on 13 is a representation of 'likemindedness'. The trigrams read bottom to top "with guidance comes singlemindedness'. When we map-in human emotions we are focused on issues of 'acceptance' - being in/out of 'my gang' etc where that gang, line fire, expands.

13 is conditional 'revelation', 49 is unconditional. The expanding fire turns all difference into sameness (ash).

Fire in LOWER is a general quality of guidance. Double that to give fire in upper and the quality is refined into direction-setting, establishing/selling an ideology.


The skeletal form of 13 is described by analogy to:

101111 (13)
100001 (27 - represents skeletal forms)
------
001110 (31 - wooing, enticing by cooperation rather than enticing by competition (33))

The fire octet is ordered:

36, 22, 63, 37, 55, 30, 49, 13

We can use reflection for analysis and so form the pairs:

36 - 13 (hide light - promote light)
22 - 49 (cover up, distract - reveal)
etc
etc

The associations are 'loose' when compared to the opposite of 07 where all is uniform/rigid so imposed from the army etc. OTOH 13 allows for personal 'variations' on a theme.

Chris.

 

[peace]

When only line 13.2 changes, the relating hexagram is 1. How do "they" get from 13.2 to 1?
Does that mean all of 1 or do I read it as the focus is on 1.2?

1 is a very powerful hexagram.
Based on line 13.2 - what is the transformation that changes it to 1? Or - do you look at it as the context for 13.2?

I still get confused about how to "read" the hexagram that the first hexagram changes into.

BTW - I love how each hexagram is like a parable and stands alone as it evolves through the lines.

Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Rosalie,

13.2 changing to 1 - Consider Brad's example of 13.2 as the KKK becoming the force of 1. The collective mind is powerful, with no openess or willingness to (re)consider it's collective motives, ethics or use of force.

 

[bradford_h]

I tend to see 01 in this Zhi Gua context as movement towards individuation and diversification, not grouping but moving outwards, evolving, getting more unique, less the same, more the result of a life's unique set of experiences. Consider the "extra" line in this Gua about "Using Nines" - "See a flock of dragons. Without a leader". There is no more "group think" here. There is a synergy in the whole, but they aren't bound to the imaginary will or mind of a group.

 

[peace]

Got it - I think.
It sounds like Bruce and Bradford see this movement towards Hex. 1 oppositely??
I think I'm reading Bruce's response as "group think" and Bradford's as moving toward individuation - but moving more towards a more enlightened synergy.

This hex. seems real important to me.

Thanks.

 

[bruce]

They both can apply. The application is effective to the specifics involved. That's why it's hard to interpret a meaning generically. An answer requires local context.

 

[bruce]

One point about 1, however. 1 is not necessarily benevolent and ?good?, as some translations portray. It is true what Brad says about individuation/uniqueness, however, the form that force takes can vary, from making war to creating art. As you?ve said, Peace, it is a question of balance: working for the benefit of the whole, and maintaining ones own individual nature.

 

[rosada]

You can get a lot of insight if you study the sequence of the hexagrams. For the sake of this example let's start with..

Hexagram 11 PEACE. Think of a situation where you could imagine yourself being very peaceful. Like, maybe you're sitting waiting for a bus. The bus isn't here yet, but you have no doubt that it will come, so you're just sitting quietly, experiencing Peace. But after awhile when the bus still doesn't come you start to feel...

Hexagram 12 STAGNATION. When you've been waiting Peacefully beyond a reasonable amount of time and still nothing is happening we're into the relm of Stagnation. At his point you may start to look around you and notice...

Hexagram 13 OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SAME SITUATION. When your stagnant and look around to see if you're the only one who's crazy, you come to realize there are other people in the same situation waiting and wondering what's happened to the bus. Because there is nothing else to do you all start chit chatting and before long you realized you've acquired...

Hexagram 14 SOMETHING VALUABLE. When people are all in the same situation and they start to share information you are sure to learn something valuable you didn't know before.
---
Thus we see from looking at the surrounding Hexagrams that 13 is about people who are in similar circumstances who are willing to share.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Working on the line positions, the '07-ness' of 13 is described by analogy to 01:

101111 (13)
010000 (07)
------
111111 (01)

01 focuses on leadership rather than management. It is 'singlemindedness', competitive in whatever it does and being so is HIGHLY differentiating.

The trigrams for 01 read from bottom to top: "with/from perseverence (heaven in lower) comes singlemindedness (heaven in upper)"

Therefore, the line 2 position associates with a focus on uniformity, formal, unconditional, organisation of a collective (07). When expressed in the 13 context is described by analogy to characteristics of 01 - IOW the context 'skews' the expression of 07 into something analogous to characteristics of 01.

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Rosada, to understand the STRUCTURAL nature of hexagrams you need to use the BINARY sequence where the focus is on the dimension (sequence) that comes out of the 01/02 dichotomy that is expressing 'opposites' in structure and so clear identification of each part of the whole. In the traditional it seems to be more about the 01/64 dichotomy and a focus on one/group dynamics in the sequence, globally (01/64 poles) or locally (01/02 beginning pair in the sequence).

e.g. (Binary - globally 01 is to 02 as 43 is to 23) VS (Traditional - 01 is to 64 as 02 is to 63)

(locally 01 is to 43 as 01 is to 02) VS (01 is to 02 as 01 is to 64)

etc this covers issues of relational logic.

In the binary ordering 13 shares space with 49. (the LOCAL relational aspect is 49 is to 13 as 02 is to 01)

49 is unconditional in its revelation, 13 is conditional and so its focus on particulars.

Zoom-in on the octet and, as mentioned before, 13 will pair with 36 to cover revealing light vs hiding light. 22 will pair with 49 to focus on the surface to be used to hide (22 will bring out the surface and so draw attention away from what is behind it; and so it pairs with 36 that is unconditional in its hiding, 22 is conditional)
or the surface to be drawn back, unmasking, to reveal what is behind it (49). (the lake top represents "intensity in expression" - and so the trigrams of 49 read "with/from guidance comes intensity in expression")

It is possible to build a sequence using recursion with the poles of 49/13 where that sequence of hexagrams will describe the qualitative 'changes' across that unique 49....13 dimension. (and so the pairs in that sequence read X is to Y as 49 is to 13 - IOW to get fine details we need to 'oppose' the hexagrams, akin to the concept of 'orthogonal' to each other in geometric representations)


Chris.

 

[rosada]

Chris, this is all very new to me. Do you have a website or a book you recommend that explains this approach from square one?

 

[lightofdarkness]

Current version of ICPlus material:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus

older version with essays, programs etc

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html

IDM covers what is behind the I Ching, how it came about from our neurology etc as it tries to determine meaning:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb

older pages from the original 1995 site:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond

Chris.

 

[peace]

Hi Chris:

I have tried to understand your explanations many times - but have to admit I am unable to understand most of it.

The idea of octets is of interest to me - but I don't understand what you mean by conditional, binary, etc.

I looked up the fire octets, based on your explanation and see that they all have Li as the lower gua - more than that, I didn't see the correlations between them.

If you can explain - in one or two sentences, that would help - otherwise, I find it too difficult and abstract -

Sorry if I'm obtuse....and I understand if you don't have the time to explain.

Rosalie

 

[rosada]

Thanks for sharing the links. I'm sure I'll get some valuable insights.

Hey, isn't this just what I said 13/14 is all about?

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Rosalie,

Not too sure about explaining IDM/ICPlus in 'one or two sentences' - I suggest going through the links I supplied to Rosada OR searching through the archives of this list. e.g. such threads as on the unconditional/conditional hexagrams:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/4195.html

The IDM material, where we use the IChing as an example of a specialist metaphor dealing with what the brain covers - interactions of objects and relationships - is covered in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html

A graphic of the 'natural' binary sequence is at http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/DIAG1.gif

Derived sequences are covered in such pages in as:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icpoints.html

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html

If you do not understand anything then just ask me ;-) If you feel you would like to cover the ICPlus material in a stronger interactive manner then I suggest joining my group to focus on that material:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ichingplus


Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

..also see such threads as:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/4387.html

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/805.html

Note in here that reference to webpages may have changed so they now all relate to http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/ rather than prodigy site that is closed.

so...add the webpage to the end of that url (e.g. http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icpoints.html)

The page currently being work upon and so 'current thinking' is:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus

Chris.

 

[peace]

Thanks so much Chris for taking the time to compile this for me!

Rosalie