help please on interpretation of hexagram 54 line 5 changing to 58

[sparkler]

...i asked the i ching was there potential for true love in my relationship...we only met in february this year and there have been quite a few ups and downs... the answer i got was hexagram 54 line 5 turning into 58...any ideas on the correct interpretation on this please?

many thanks, sparkler

 

[sparkler]

...oh dear, no response so far...hope there is someone out there who can help me interpret this properly.. i would be very grateful...many thanks, sparkler

 

[sparkler]

...oh dear...no response so far...hope there is someone out there who can help me interpret this properly...i would be very grateful...many thanks sparkler

 

[jesed]

Hi Sparkler

I suggest you another way... a little more long but clearest

Made this Dialogue, following this order:
a) General Diagnosis of the relation between X and I
b) Qualification of X's position within the relation
c) Qualification of my position within the relation

Best wishes

 

[philippa]

Hi Sparkler,

It's hard to interpret without more context. Here's my note on 54.5.

54 is the marrying maiden stuck in a secondary position (i.e., not in a position of control). Historically, it's about the second wife who got pregnant with the future king who carried out the mandate of heaven. (Here's the key, the first wife didn't produce an heir, it's the second wife who did.) But of course, generally, the secondary wife doesn't usually get as good a treatment as the first wife.

I can already two possible interpretations. One optimistic, the other less so... Could you fill in a bit more before I (or other people) dive further?

Philippa

 

[sparkler]

sorry about that, i will try to give you more context...i met this man five months ago...initially he was very attentive and intense...he wanted to see me every day...he said he loved me after only knowing me for three weeks...told him that this was too fast for me and that i wanted to take things a little more slowly...let things develop gradually... since then he has been quite absent both emotionally and physically...sometimes he does not get in touch with me for several days... and i find i am usually the one to initiate contact...things seems completely different to how they were at first...he will not tell me why he is behaving this way...hoped that the i ching might give me some insight into this... so please give me both your negative and positive interpretations..... many thanks, sparkler

 

[jesed]

Hi Sparkler

The answer you got doesn't seems positive for me. But, the clearest way to help your doubts is (at least in my experience) the dialogue I suggested you.

Best wishes

 

[sparkler]

ok thanks jesed...i will try your suggested questions...and post the answers when i get them...however i would like to know peoples ideas on the original answer...hexagram 54 line 5...the line itself seems pretty positive...though i know the hexagram is not always so...in the book i have `total i ching` by stephen karcher it says for line 5 about accepting the secondary position for now but the junior wife will be queen...please help!

many thanks, sparkler

 

[philippa]

Hi sparkler,

In spite of the fact that 54.5 is the only nice line in 54, I wonder if you are trying to squeeze hope out of it. Perhaps you want to ponder over the meaning of 54 a little?

Remember, 54 is a marrying maiden who has no say regarding her situation. This is something you want to keep in mind when you're reading line 5.

I think Jesed has a point here. Even if you don't want to have the suggested dialogue, you may want to at least think over how you position yourself in this relationship.

Good luck.

Philippa

 

[toganm]

Hi sparkler,

Remember, 54 is a marrying maiden who has no say regarding her situation. This is something you want to keep in mind when you're

Hex.54 is a mismatch, hence generally not a positive outcome should be expected.

On the other hand try the suggestion Jesed gaved.

Hope this helps

Togan

 

[autumn]

Hi, Sparkler.

Your line, 54.5, says you are subordinating yourself to the limitations of the situation to try to make the situation meet your needs.

The opposite line is 58.5, is trusting in something or someone who is not stable. In 58.5., you are connecting yourself to a source that you believe is strong, but cannot provide what you need (54).

In light of your question- "show me the potential for love in this relationship"- the line says specifically you are managing the situation through under-achievement. Kind of like- you don't have very much, so you slowly enjoy what you do have to try to extend the value. On Christmas Day there are three small presents, so you open only one in the morning and save the others for later to extend a small moment.

The judgment is that the relationship is an inferior source (54) of intimacy (58), and your question specfically asked about the potential for true love in the relationship. The answer is, "this is the best you can do here- make do with something that could pass for love, but is less".

Jesed has gone through the dialouge method with me, and my experience was that it was much more effective in getting solid answers I could use in my life. What it does is allow you to see things from a more objective perspective. It allows the oracle to speak directly to you, and puts the oracle in the driver's seat, so you listen to what's being said without screening the answers through the static of your ego's hopes and fears.

 

[Trojina]

Autumn I found your interpretation of 58,5 really interesting. I'm wondering do you think a person who gets this line in regard to a reationship would be better to leave or carry on accepting a lesser role ? I suppose its up to the querent, yet 54,5 in some ways seems such a glowing line, as if you do indeed accept a lowly position this will be very favourable for you.

 

[autumn]

I believe the lines themselves can be qualitatively anything. If, for example, I was an eighteen-year-old deeply dissatisfied with my mother's imperfections, and if I felt very sorry for myself because she wasn't the ideal mother I believed that I was entitled to have, and I drew this line, then the message would be corrective, but positive.
It would say, appreciate what is there to appreciate. Love your mother for who she is and respect what you have been given. Count your blessings- you only get one mother, love her for who she is and grow up- meet your emotional needs yourself.

My interpretation here was based on understanding the line as one half of the picture. The question was one half, and the answer the other. "Show the potential for true love".
The picture is a woman in Ancient China locked into a marriage with a man who is her inferior, and a complete and total understanding that he does not have the capacity to meet her needs. She accepts what the Universe has given her and appreciates to full capacity the marriage. She turns the imperfect situation into a blessing.

Is this what Sparkler wants to do? Is she forced into marriage by her culture? Is this the only man out there? Of course not. I believe here the line is telling her the best outcome for this situation, the best potential with this man, is to adjust herself to a man who can't change and be happy with it.

 

[sparkler]

ok all, thanks for your ideas, but i am still confused...i have asked the i ching about this relationship before and was given some very positive answers... such as when i asked i we would still be together at christmas... i got hexagram 45 gathering together turning to hexagram 3...why the positive line in hexagram 54 turning to 58...is 58 considered positive?

many thanks, sparkler

 

[philippa]

Hi sparkler,

There are many techniques reading the hexagrams and the changing lines. We are dealing with symbols and metaphors. One would want to be dynamic with the interpretation. E.g., Sometimes the relating hexagram symbolizes the resulting situation, sometimes not.

I don't wish to be blunt but here I am: I can't help getting the sense that you're trying to squeeze hope of the Yi by seeing the hexagrams and the yao lines as either positive and negative.

Autumn gives an interpretation here. Have another pass on what she wrote. (Erm, Autumn, perhaps you are a he?) Can you see the correspondence between what she wrote and your own situation?

Btw, 45 > 3, so that makes the line changes at 1 and 4. Are they really positive? Or do they represent the positions you and the person are at? (If this is indeed the case, who's at line 1 and who's at line 4?)

I know this is difficult when one is trying to gain a clear perspective on one's situation. In Chinese, there's a saying "pong guan che ching, don gook che mai" (the outsider has a crytal clear view; the insider is lost).

I wish you luck.

Philippa

 

[heylise]

It might be that his reaction to your hesitation is a very common one, which many men have. For him it means, that you are not entirely open and receptive to him. Man-woman in its deepest sense is like hexagrams 1 and 2. This implies that the woman is without any second thoughts or doubts. And if she has any, it means that she does not see him as hex-1.

If that is so, then 54 makes sense. You'd have to adapt to how he is. I agree with Autumn on this. This does not mean that you 'have' to submit, but if you find him worthwhile, then it might be a good idea to be your deepest woman. To be 54 for him, and then the two of you can exchange in joy (58). Don't be the full moon. It can be very rewarding to be more woman and less person. But don't lose any of yourself, of your person(ality) either (58.5 warns for that).

LiSe

 

[rosada]

Love your take on man/woman and hex 1 and 2, LiSe!

 

[bruce_g]

I love it too, and though it would never win approval of the woman’s lib org. it sure puts the woo back in woman.

Mutual empowerment isn’t the same as empowering one another in the same way, as though there is no difference between man/woman, yang/yin. Power is shared when each is what they are, not who they’re competing with to become.

 

[hilary]

Just so no-one thinks I'm moving threads selectively - I'll move this reading-thread over to 'Friends' Area'. Not that it looks like anyone had any trouble finding it here

 

[sparkler]

hi all, thanks so much for all your thoughts on this, it has been very helpful...i decided to ask questions that jesed suggested...but of course i am now even more confused...hope some of you can help me to understand this...general diagnosis of relationship of my partner and myself...answer hexagram 18 line 2 changing to 52...qualification of my partners position within the relationship...answer 45 line 1 4 6 changing to 42...qualification of my position within the relationship...answer 27 lines 2 and 3 changing to 26...can anyone help to interpret this... i would be so so grateful to you all...not sure why i have been moved to friends area on this board...was i in the wrong category before?

many thanks, sparkler

 

[bruce_g]

In Chinese, there's a saying "pong guan che ching, don gook che mai" (the outsider has a crytal clear view; the insider is lost).
Philippa

Excellent saying!

Philippa, are you a native Chinese? You seem to understand the language well.

 

[jesed]

Hi sparkler

Really deep answers.

You asked if there is posibility for a true love in the relation.

Now i can asnwer you: YES, there is a high posibility for a true love

But both of you has your own hesitations. This hesitations has their roots in previous negative experiences. So, you need to work with your past, solve it.. in order to allow your love develop.

Best wishes

 

[AnitaS]

Hello Sparkler,

54 is not positive at all - I know this through bitter experience - whatever the line may be. Perhaps there is someone else or something else in his life which he gives priority to.

Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[philippa]

Philippa, are you a native Chinese? You seem to understand the language well.

Yes. I'm a native Chinese... but you know, ignorance is bliss. Knowing how I (personally) would use the individual characters or combining the words into compounds (or "parsing" as per Lindsay's post on Chinese, or "chunking" for those linguists in the forum) muddy the water, big time. The clarity of interpretation from people on this forum puts me to shame.

Philippa

 

[philippa]

But both of you has your own hesitations. This hesitations has their roots in previous negative experiences. So, you need to work with your past, solve it.. in order to allow your love develop.

Hi Jesed,

I think I grasp the "roots in the previous experience" part (18.2). I also see the part on solving personal issues (27.2.3 > 26 and 45.1.4.6 > 42). But I don't quite understand how you arrived at the conclusion that there's a high possibility for true love.

Could you elaborate your answers a bit?

Philippa

 

[bruce_g]

Yes. I'm a native Chinese... but you know, ignorance is bliss. Knowing how I (personally) would use the individual characters or combining the words into compounds (or "parsing" as per Lindsay's post on Chinese, or "chunking" for those linguists in the forum) muddy the water, big time. The clarity of interpretation from people on this forum puts me to shame.

Philippa

Philippa,

I hope you don’t underestimate what you have to offer. In discussions which refer directly to the Chinese language, I can only follow the ping pong ball, with no understanding of the rules. I know that some translators here make more sense to me than others do, and at least touch on what I’ve come to understand of Yi’s meanings through experience. I have great difficulty with some of Ewald’s translations, while most of Brad’s and LiSe’s clicks, for example. Being that Chinese is your first language, albeit contemporary, you may be able to help me and others sort through this maze.

 

[jesed]

Hi philippa

Partner's position WITHIN the relation:
line 1: hesitation, BUT if the partner call for help, good prospect of reunion
line 4: good fortune.. the partner is not a selfish-one, but working with honesty for real union
line 6: the partner feel sad because the subject doesn't trust enough in the partner... the consultant doens't see partner's good intentions... but consultant could see some day, and real love develop

So... the partner honesty wants the reunion (line 4), but the partner feels sad because the consultant doesn't trust enough in partner's feelings (line 6); so, the partner feel insecure in the relation.

Consultant's position WITHIN the relation:
Line 2: Hesitation, inner insecurity.. lack of self-confidence.. the consultant seeks that the partner nourish consultant's afective needs.
Line 3: Looking for unhealthy nourishment... can't enjoy what he/she has... lack of independece.

So, if the consultant wants to find true love in this relation, the consultant need to work with develop self-confidence. Only in this way, the trust in the other and true love can develop,

This combination... both having hesitations, is what is needed to fix in this Time (hex 18), with kindness and gentleness (line 2)

Now... the combination of principal 18 and tendential 52 is a well prospect of development (in traditional teachings, some combinations of principal-tendential are harmonious and some are conflictives... that is taked in mind to prospect the posible evolution) ... so, even with the present bad situation there is a high posibility for a good end (meaning.. true love)

Of course, the high posibility need both of them follow the advice, to be a reality. Otherwise (if the consultant doens't work in develop self-confidence and trust in the partner, for example) this high posibility won't be a reality

Best wishes

 

[sparkler]

thanks so much jesed...your interpretations make a lot of sense...hopefully we will be able to work through these issues...

many thanks, sparkler

 

[jesed]

Hi sparkler

This is why i like so muh this dialogue aproach... even more in relationship-kind-of-questions

Now, the objective time of 18 would end soon (September 16, 2006)... AFTER that date, you could do a new General Diagnosis of the relation's Time... to now where you are after the time of 18.

This is the way to track the development of the issue, in Diagnosis questions: don't ask for a new diagnosis, until the Time had end...but when the Time had end, make a new diagnosis

Best wishes