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help with reading 22.3.5 related 42

lysithea

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Hey people, Lys here again, as some of you call me :)
Some people might not be familiar with me and my story so i'll sum it up. My ex fiance and I are/were reconnecting and we had an issue with "physical intimacy" where i wasnt so sure about reconnecting it that sense because I felt we weren't in the place we should be for it to happen. After a couple weeks things were good between us so we sort of resumed our physical connection. I say sort of because our relationship is currently long distance so it's more an online thing.
Anyways, after that happened he became distant, i tried to talk to him a few times during the week (2) but he was dismissive and said he was busy, i let him be. Only today he initiated contact for a little bit (right now as i wrote this post)
In a previous reading, when i was asking what i could do to improve my relationship, the oracle adviced me to be more open minded. So now I asked "What should I expect from X and our relationship now" and I got 22.3.5 with relating hex 42.
From what I understand, this talks about a time for beginnings, not for results, being careful about not to rely so much in external appeareances yet at the same time not to abuse simplicity. The relating hexagram seems to be advicing me to be active and "participate" from the increase instead of holding back. The superficiality contained in Hexagram 22 makes me think about this not being a time to commit, yet the related hexagram i interpret it as a sign of an evolution of the relationship in the future, after this seemingly superficial time. (Maybe take the heat and stress out of a relationship that has been rather stressful and full of pressure, for it to be able to develop to the next stage)
Since I am a beginner in this kinds of interpretation, I would love some insight.:hug:
 

lysithea

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anyone? would really apreciate some insight. Sometimes i feel i understand the hexagrams themselves, but the itnerpretation of the changing lines i'm still working on :eek:
 

ginnie

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22.3 is like getting quite drunk from the situation so that you forget everything else. Getting swamped! It feels like fun, but then you realize that you lost control of the situation.

22.5. This man is of higher social or financial position than you. So naturally you feel you are lacking. But in life all that matters is what's inside us. We weren't all born on the mountain top, surrounded by a beautiful garden. Be assured that others will appreciate you for your good heart

-- or they won't. That is up to them.

The only solid way to move up in the world is through self-development.
 

lysithea

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thanks ginnie

:eek: i guess i was way off with my interpretation then. beginner's fault.
i think that the "getting drunk" bit has to do with what happened. as for the social/financial status it's kind of fuzzy. we are living in diferent countries now and my level of income is way below his mainly because where i live incomes are in general lower than in most first world - more developed countries, yet i am more educated than he is in a formal sense and come from a "good" background (hate those kinds of comparisons). i don't feel in any way that either of us is lacking, though i do feel that the financial (not social) status might be an issue for him (me coming from a "poorer" country, having to get visas to go visit him now, having to struggle more to save enough money to go visit him)
Now, i'm not sure how that interpretation relates to the question and the related hex, though :confused:
 
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charly

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... My ex fiance and I are/were reconnecting and we had an issue with "physical intimacy" where i wasnt so sure about reconnecting...
Anyways, after that happened he became distant, i tried to talk to him a few times during the week (2) but he was dismissive and said he was busy, i let him be... I asked "What should I expect from X and our relationship now" and I got 22.3.5 with relating hex 42... this talks about a time for beginnings, not for results... not being a time to commit, yet the related hexagram i interpret it as a sign of an evolution of the relationship in the future... [I believe, an evolution of YOURSELF. Ch.]
Hi, Lys:

I don't use to give much advice. but see, if he is too busy, let him with his business. Not the sort of guy you need, not the sort of relation that you can enjoy. The worst thing to the heart is to fall in psychopathic games, send him to the hell. Take the experience for its own value and face new experiences without blame and without sadness. The future shall be lucky.

This is GRACE, not mere adornment, but a higher GIFT if one can enjoy it. (1)

Maybe you are using Wilhelm/Baynes edition:
[H.22] ... a fire that breaks out of the secret depths of the earth ...Grace-beauty of form-is necessary in any union if it is to be well ordered and pleasing rather than disordered and chaotic...

GRACE has success. In small matters It is favorable to undertake something.

W/B

Say, maybe it was very stimulant, but I don't see love from him in what you talk, don't tie yourself to a lunatic, distant, dark person. For something you were "not so sure about reconnecting".

In small matters, favorable. But love cannot be small. Not favorable to commitment.
(3)


[22.3] Graceful and moist. Constant perseverance brings good fortune. ... a very charming life situation. One is under the spell of grace. Hence the warning not to sink into convivial indolence but to remain constant in perseverance...

To have been granted with grace is like to enjoy our humid breath, it always promises luck. Constancy in the seek of what you deceive, TRUE LOVE.

[22.5] Grace in the hills and gardens. The roll of silk is meager and small. Humiliation, but in the end good fortune.

W/B
Of course, a promise of sexual joy (4), but in the future. If you can learn, with grace, from the experience, it will flourish like a seed and will lead you to H. 42 ALL THE MORE.

I might be wrong, only you can know the truth in your heart. Maybe I'm not objective, only honest. These advices are what I see in the Changes.

All the best,

Charly


__________________________________
(1) The chinese name of H.22 is 賁. This character has various pronunciations: bi / ben / fei /fen. It depicts FLOWERS IN A VASE or SPROUTS FROM A COWRIE SHELL. It means:
to adorn / ornamental / bright / luminous // energetic / strenuous // a family name // large / great [Sears' Chineseetymology].
That's why W/B prefers GRACE instead of ADORN.

(2) H.42 INCREASE is 益, it depicts WATER ON A DISH, almost overflowing, the promise of a lucky future:
benefit / profit / advantage / increase / all the more // to increase / to add to / to augment / in a higher degree / to a greater extent /[Sears' Chineseetymology].

(3) a literal version from the chinese text:
H.22: GRACE CELEBRATION. LITTLE PROFITABLE FOR HAVING TO GO FAR.

(4) The garden at the foot of the mound means sex.
 
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lysithea

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What confuses me is that the question itself was about the relationship, so the appeareance of Hex 42 makes me wonder wether or not the outcome of the relationship itself (or in a more personal level and even more connected to the question, "what should I expect from it") could be a positive one and this is just a phase I have to learn how to get out from.
The fear I have when I give too much information about a certain matter on a reading is that it is inevitable for people to relate and give, as charly said, less objective takes on it (it's only natural for us to put a little bit of ourselves or what we think, our values, etc. when we interpret, which i think could be avoided if we were to avoid giving so much info), which is also why I ask people around here, because if someone can't be objective here (or won't, you decide) is me.
Regardless of that, thanks, very intresting take on the matter, though I'm still a little confused. Anyone else agrees with charlie's interpretation?
 

caustic

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So the garden in line 5 can symbolize sex. That's interesting.

I wonder if "small harvest" and "success in small matters" can be positive in that it can mean a little goes a long way, less is more?
 

charly

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So the garden in line 5 can symbolize sex. That's interesting.

I wonder if "small harvest" and "success in small matters" can be positive in that it can mean a little goes a long way, less is more?

1) Of course, MOUND symbolize ♂ and GARDEN symbolize ♀, if we put both together...

2) I believe that small harvest / success in small matters are not good translations for H.22 that in chinese says:

賁 bi4: adorn / energetic / GRACE
亨 heng1: prosperous / success / SACRIFICE / FEAST / CELEBRATION

小 xiao3: small / tiny / few / young / LITTLE
利 li4: advantage / benefit / profit / sharp / PROFITABLE
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist / to be / HAVE
攸 you1: distant / far / adverbial prefix / FAR
往 wang3: to go (in a direction) / towards / TO GO

Given that XIAO applies to LI, SMALL HARVEST is pretty good, but I believe that the sense is that there is little profit (if any) in following the supposed mandate of going far.

Compare with H.42:

益 yi4: benefit / increase / ALL THE MORE

利 li4: advantage / benefit / profit / sharp / PROFITABLE
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist / to be / TO HAVE
攸 you1: distant / far / adverbial prefix / FAR
往 wang3: to go (in a direction) / towards / TO GO

利 li4: advantage / benefit / profit / sharp / PROFITABLE
涉 she4: to cross / to wade / TO CROSS
大 da4: big / large / great / GREAT
川 chuan1: river / creek / RIVER


DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

H.22: Take it with grace and celebrate, but don't go too far, don't commit in long journeys.

H.42: Great promise. Go as far as you need, it will be profitable. Even to cross big rivers will be profitable.


Don't you agree?

Yours,


Charly
 
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charly

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What confuses me is that the question itself was about the relationship ...

Dear Lys:

It happened to me that the Changes almost always speaks to me, not about the things I ask. And much times he speaks about myself.

I try to be objective with the text, in the messure that it is possible. But in advicing how can we be objective?. Is it desirable?

I cannot, I have daughters.

I'm not fond of remote advicing, the more information we give, the better the advice we get. In consults we need to talk. Maybe the oracle is infallible, but the diviner not. And this is the good.

You receive the advice but you are not obliged by it, you retain all your freedom, you run all the risks.

All be for good.

Yours,

Charly
 

caustic

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DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

H.22: Take it with grace and celebrate, but don't go too far, don't commit in long journeys.

H.42: Great promise. Go as far as you need, it will be profitable. Even to cross big rivers will be profitable.


Don't you agree?

Yours,


Charly

Hi, Charly.
Ok, so maybe 22 is saying to not take things too far in the beginning (success only in small harvest); but 42 says that later on down the road it should be beneficial for her to make a big commitment with him. Take things slow in the beginning (22), and make a greater commitment at a later date (42). Am I understanding this correctly?
 

lysithea

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Charly, I totally understand your point of view, my comment about objectivity was exactly about that, as readers or advisors, we are flawed and even though the context is very important in order to help someone with a reading, advice or anything, sometimes our own history, system of belief, etc, can interfere and, since the oracle gives room to very different interpretations (even different translations give way to different interpretations), well, we might mix our interpretation of a given situation given by how we feel about different things in life with what we interpret out of the oracle. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, yet at the same time, that's why i find so valuable to have different point of views, like caustic's for example.:hug:
To Caustic. What you said about the related hexagram was what I thought too (although my interpretation of the lines was kinda off) Thanks for your input:bows:
 

caustic

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Hi, lys. I'm not really sure how valuable my view is on this, because I have to be honest about the fact that not too long ago I asked the I Ching a question that is a little bit similar to yours and received the exact same answer, 22 lines 3 and 5 changing to 42. So I do have a vested interest in seeing what others have to say about what is going on here. I hope that for both of our sakes my view turns out to be on the right track.
 

lysithea

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Caustic, if you are/were in the same situation obviously we can't be objective :) but all interpretations are wellcome in order to be able to understand what is happenning.
How did things turn out for you anyways? Things not looking very bright at this end :bag:
 

charly

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Hi, Charly.
Ok, so maybe 22 is saying to not take things too far in the beginning (success only in small harvest); but 42 says that later on down the road it should be beneficial for her to make a big commitment with him. Take things slow in the beginning (22), and make a greater commitment at a later date (42). Am I understanding this correctly?
Hi, Caustic:

Not so sure if "with him". I believe that it's only a great promise in the future, I don't see any issue about with whom.

I doubt about the success in small matters, matters are not in the chinese text, it's an addition. I believe that Grace is to see the good side, has something to do with manners, with self image and generosity.

Things that can help in bitter contexts when the person or the heart is wounded, and in good times is a great plus.

Yours,

Charly
 

caustic

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Hi, lys. There's really nothing to report about how my situation is going right now. I will admit that the 22 changing to 42 answer is the second time I asked the same question. The first time I asked it I received 25 lines 2.3.5.6 changing to 34. I'm starting to feel that neither answer is a positive one.
 

caustic

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Hi, Caustic:

Not so sure if "with him". I believe that it's only a great promise in the future, I don't see any issue about with whom.

Hi, Charly. First off, I just want to say that I am not trying to be obstinate or trying to make trouble by continuing to question things. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand things correctly.

And having said that, I have to ask why you're not so sure it is with him? Why don't you see any issue about with whom? Her question is about him and about her relationship with him, so I would think the I Ching's answer would be about him and her relationship with him--unless you are saying that the I Ching may not be answering the question which lys directly asked it...which brings me to two issues:

#1: If 22 changing to 42 is a positive, happy answer, then it's quite possible that the I Ching is not answering the question that lys directly asked it. I say this because, Charly, I agree with you about the ex fiance, he doesn't sound like the best guy in the world, like he may be trying to play head games with lys as you suggested. How can lys or anyone be happy with a guy like that?! And this brings me to my second issue:

#2: Hexagram 22 changing to 42 may not be a positive or happy answer, especially if the I Ching is answering the question lys directly asked it about her ex fiance. It could be saying that the gain (42) of positive and happy things lys hopes to one day have with her ex fiance will not happen. The best she can hope for with him is the small (22). She may be presented with nice feelings that turn out to be false (22.3) and bring no nourishment (27.3). And there's the whole issue of 22.5, that shabby and meager bolt of silk the man brings to the garden party as a gift because he is poor and that is all he can afford to bring. Perhaps all the ex fiance can feel for lys is shabby, meager feelings, now and always. Perhaps he has a poverty of feelings for her. It could be possible that 22.5 is not the promise of future happiness/joy that some people think it is.
 

caustic

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And I realize that there is a third issue: that 22 changing to 42 can be a positive/happy answer and still be answering her direct question to it in the respect that Hexagram 22 is saying that lys should not take things too far with the ex fiance, that there will only be small success with him. Hexagram 42 is saying that in the future there will be a chance to have a big commitment with a guy she will find true joy with.

Ok, I think I have gotton out all the stuff that's swimming around inside my head....
 

ginnie

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22 > 42

42 implies the sacrifice of personal wishes for the benefit of someone else. So, H42 implies the desire to receive benefits from others or to extend benefits to them. Hexagram 42 speaks of self-sacrifice and ways that benefits flow.

22.3.5; Getting swamped in line 3. Line five advises you not to compare yourself to people who have more material possessions than you have.
 
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caustic

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42 implies the sacrifice of personal wishes for the benefit of someone else. So, H42 implies the desire to receive benefits from others or to extend benefits to them. Hexagram 42 speaks of self-sacrifice and ways that benefits flow.

22.3.5; Getting swamped in line 3. Line five advises you not to compare yourself to people who have more material possessions than you have.

Hi, Ginnie. Well, I guess all that is a sobering thought. 42 is about personal sacrifice. I guess that could mean that Lysithea would be making a lot of sacrifices and her ex fiance would be getting all the gain from it. That does not sound too happy, really.

That makes sense about 22.5...don't look at what other people have, especially when they seem to have more than you do. It's sage advice, but a darn hard thing to do, especially when you feel you have so little of your own. But I guess one has to remember that 22 is really just about appearances and just what's on the surface, after all. There's nothing deeper.

I've been thinking a lot lately that many relationships are really just about keeping up appearances, just having one for the sake of having one. I think many people are not very happing in their relationships, despite "appearances" on the outside. Well, I know that I need more than just a nice appearance; I want depth. Here's to hoping we all one day find that depth....
 

lysithea

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OK i have to say i am dizzy now :confused:
I deeply thank all of you for your very valuable inputs. Could I ask you to share your conclusions on the matter? Since I am a very "gestaltic" person, I believe that the whole is more and different that the sum of it's parts, so what do you think the advice is, putting everything your interpreting together. I already sort of get what Charly was saying, but would really love to hear what Caustic and Ginnie have to say about the reading as a whole.
I find really amazing that we have this place to share our points of view :)
 

ginnie

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"What should I expect from X and our relationship now" and I got 22.3.5 with relating hex 42.

Exceptional energy is being poured into the current situation (H42). However, there's too much attention now being paid to external appearances and other superficial matters (H22).
 

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