help!

[dobro p]

In trying to come to an understanding of the terms in the Yi, sometimes the juxtaposition of two terms in a particular line demonstrates clearly to me what I *don't* understand. That happened today when I drew 44.6. I don't draw this line very often, which is perhaps why I never noticed before what I'm going to outline now.

Here's my rendering of 44.6:

Encountering his horns
Shame without fault

It's the 'shame without fault' that got me confused.

I've been translating lin4 as 'shame'; it's a respectable translation I think - it harmonises with other respected translations - Bradford's glossary includes it in a cluster of similar meanings, Wilhelm/Baynes uses 'humiliation', Legge uses 'regret', Karcher opts for 'shame and confusion' etc).

I've been translating wu2 jiu4 as 'without fault'. Some translators opt for 'without blame' or 'without error', but the meanings are really close.

Okay, my question is this: how can something be both 'shameful' and 'without fault'? Shame is a painful emotion that arises associated with the understanding of having done something wrong, of having let standards drop. If you've done that, how can you be 'without fault', 'withoutout blame', 'without error'?

I can see two ways out of this:

1 I can translate lin4 as 'distress', where 'distress' would mean something like 'a painful emotion arising associated with the understanding of things being seriously out of tune with the universe'. No personal blame, in other words. Now, the problem with this approach is that I understand lin4 to refer to getting honest with one's own shortcomings, to admitting where one has not done one's best.

2 I can decide to translate lin4 as 'shame' sometimes and as 'distress' sometimes.

Help!

 

[fyreflye]

Terms like "shame" and "humiliation" in Asian cultures refer to one's feelings about censure, deserved or not, by others - by friends, family, peer group. "Guilt" in Western cultures refers to the feeling that one has somehow done something dishonorable or hurtful. The junzi may have done the right thing by his or her code and in accordance with the Mandate of Heaven and thus have no reason to feel guilt or any reason to be blamed but the social code of others may cause temporary feelings of shame. In such a case your original translation is not problematic.


-fyreflye

 

[dobro p]

Hmm... yeah, it's really possible I've mapped western ideas of guilt onto a term that originally held little or none of that meaning. So you think lin4 means 'social censure' ('allegations of political incorrectness') throughout the Yi?

 

[heylise]

Fireflye, can I please use your words on my page, where I explain the words of the oracle? LIN-distress These are the things which are impossible to know when one is not born in the East.

I'd love to spend some time in China and find out myself, but since that is not possible... And I guess 'some' time would be way too short anyway.

LiSe

 

[dobro p]

These are the things which are impossible to know when one is not born in the East.

I'd love to spend some time in China and find out myself, but since that is not possible... And I guess 'some' time would be way too short anyway.

LiSe

Yes, plus you'd have to spend some time in China three thousand years ago as well. Which is difficult to do unless you have special abilities. And if you have those special abilities, you have no need of the Yi.

 

[bruce_g]

I also found your explanation helpful, fyreflye. Thank you.

 

[Sparhawk]

Terms like "shame" and "humiliation" in Asian cultures refer to one's feelings about censure, deserved or not, by others - by friends, family, peer group. "Guilt" in Western cultures refers to the feeling that one has somehow done something dishonorable or hurtful. The junzi may have done the right thing by his or her code and in accordance with the Mandate of Heaven and thus have no reason to feel guilt or any reason to be blamed but the social code of others may cause temporary feelings of shame. In such a case your original translation is not problematic.


-fyreflye

Imagine Mr. Spock, looking back at you, with a serious looking face and an arched left eyebrow. Taking out everything Mr. Spock stands for but the curious arched left eyebrow, you are looking at me.

Nice one.

L

 

[bradford]

[QUOTE}
It's the 'shame without fault' that got me confused.
[/QUOTE]

Hi Dobro-
Lin doesn't refer to all kinds of what we call shame.
It doesn't apply to getting caught stealing,
or getting caught doing that thing to your goat.
It's more like embarassment at being inadequate, at not being up
to a task, at being handicapped, at being impotent, at poor status
or level of accomplishments.
Lin isn't necessarily your fault, and not at all if you really tried.
So, loosely, there's no shame in having tried

 

[dobro p]

Hi Dobro-
Lin doesn't refer to all kinds of what we call shame.
It doesn't apply to getting caught stealing,
or getting caught doing that thing to your goat.
It's more like embarassment at being inadequate, at not being up
to a task, at being handicapped, at being impotent, at poor status
or level of accomplishments.
Lin isn't necessarily your fault, and not at all if you really tried.
So, loosely, there's no shame in having tried

So, not so much painful emotion at having wrongdoing come to light as painful emotion at having inadequacy come to light?

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 44.6

Line 6
"Encounter, one's test of strength. Regret. No harm in this." [ A point of realization that one must eventually yield [spiritually?] despite one's position].

From a local perspective, Shame is a social emotion as compared to Guilt that is more personal - there are two forms of emotion, those we share as species members and those we share in the process of personal identity development where *those* emotions are dependent upon that sense of self (linked to the development of a super-ego and its relation to ego etc) for their formation/identity.

For a good read on Shame etc see:

Jacoby, Mario (1996)" Shame and the origins of self-esteem : A Jungian Approach" Brunner-Routledge

"Shame exercies an essential function; without shame and the restraint it imposes, even the most rudimentary form of civilization would be unthinkable. Shame is a highly complex phenomenon, promoting the individual's adaptation to collective norms and morals no less than the protection of of his privacy. In this respect, shame can be likend to a border guard who punishes those who overstep a particular moral code's sense of dignity and respectability. Transgression of such borders offends good morals and can result in social sanctions or at the very least, a certain loss of face" p46

Note the focus on going to far, extremes etc.

Given the juxtaposition, one can be personally without fault but collectively in shame. Note my comments to the line comment above - it does not matter about your position, in this context of persuasion/seduction the persuader/seducer is persuaded/seduced.

If you insist on trying to translate the IC from the original text, and so often too focused on the trees and so miss the forest, then you are missing the general nature of the material and so the point from where customisation begins as you fit the general to YOUR particular.

At the general level 44.6 reflects issues of "with/from seducing/persuading comes exceeding, going too far" This can be interpreted as an example of yang into yin, yin into yang - the top line change leads into reference to the characteristics of the partner of 44, 28.

If we just focus on XOR then the 23-ness of 44 is 28. 23-ness covers pruning issues and here in 44 pruning can go too far (negative) OR go beyond what is required (positive, we go the extra distance). If we are focusing on balance overall then either of these actions are 'extreme' regardless of their positive/negative traits. In the IC any extreme is reflected in change to its 'opposite' and so the overall vibe of the line - PERSONALLY this is not an issue in that we are dealing with a COLLECTIVE condition that is unavoidable and I think the quote I gave above brings out the COLLECTIVE bias of 'Shame' and so the comments covering such in a hexagram that covers particular 'goings too far', pesuading, seducing, as its partner (28) covers the general 'excess'.

Your comments re the use of a chinese ideogram in other areas do not include reference to the other hexagram involved in a line 'change' that can bias interpretations. IMHO you are operating too close to the expression level and not considerating the background, the general... like your being too 'traditional' in focus man! ;-)

Chris.

 

[bradford]

So, not so much painful emotion at having wrongdoing come to light as painful emotion at having inadequacy come to light?

Yes, and only distress in this sense too. The kind of distress you get from getting beaten up or ground down by a situation is the word "Li" that's first used at 01.3, literally a grindstone.

 

[soulreaver]

Shame exercies an essential function; without shame and the restraint it imposes, even the most rudimentary form of civilization would be unthinkable.

I agree with you Chris, the nazis used the very same techniques in their bid. Shaving heads and what not.

John

 

[lightofreason]

I agree with you Chris, the nazis used the very same techniques in their bid. Shaving heads and what not.

John

Sure - anything serving to protect also serves to be exploited - if one's identity is poorly differentiated such that one is dependent on cultural context for identity then shame is a source for manipulation. if the identity is well differentiated then the focus must be on eliciting guilt.... and then there are sociopaths... found in some Nazis ;-)

The development of a sense of Self includes such self-dependent emotions as embarressment etc .... and then there are sociopaths...

What do you think would be a shameful act in a troop of chimps as compared to a troop of bonobos?

Chris.

 

[soulreaver]

What do you think would be a shameful act in a troop of chimps as compared to a troop of bonobos?

Throwing poop?

John

 

[lightofreason]

Throwing poop?

John

not for chimps - that is normal for them.

 

[soulreaver]

not for chimps - that is normal for them.

So what's the answer?

 

[Sparhawk]

What do you think would be a shameful act in a troop of chimps as compared to a troop of bonobos?

Don't know the answer but I rather be a bonobo than a chimp. Less brain=more fun for our primate cousins.

L

 

[bradford]

So what's the answer?

Depending on the chimp troop it could be all three homosexuality, incest and pedophilia.
Bonobos are true practitioners of free love a couple dozen times a day.
We knew this about Luis. He's a little monkey too. Oooo Oooo

 

[soulreaver]

Don't forget cannibalism. (War and greed.)

(Bonobos are a species of chimpanzee apparently.)

 

[dobro p]

Don't forget cannibalism.

Luis eats other monkeys?

Sometimes this place bitterly disappoints me...

 

[dobro p]

It's more like embarassment at being inadequate

Hi Bradford - Okay, I've wrangled this and decided that this is the way to go with it - I'm grateful for your input. The only thing I have to do now is decide on a new term for xiu1 in 12.3 and 32.3, cuz I've been translating it as 'embarrassment'. It'll be an easy fix, I think. Thanks for the help.

 

[bradford]

Hi Bradford - Okay, I've wrangled this and decided that this is the way to go with it - I'm grateful for your input. The only thing I have to do now is decide on a new term for xiu1 in 12.3 and 32.3, cuz I've been translating it as 'embarrassment'. It'll be an easy fix, I think. Thanks for the help.

That's maybe closer to shame as I see it. I see Xiu1 as failure due to defects of character, disgrace, unworthiness, etc., something that better person would not have to go through.

 

[bradford]

Don't forget cannibalism.
(Bonobos are a species of chimpanzee apparently.)

Yeah, like taking your human sacrifice and eating his body and drinking his blood
at Sunday mass.

Actually, chimps and bonobos reverse here. Chimps are known to practice cannibalism, but I don't think bonobos are. Not enough hormones left to rage that way.

Separate species, but close enough to interbreed is my guess. Bonobos are often called Pygmy chimps, but I think they're bigger.

 

[soulreaver]

Chimps are known to practice cannibalism, but I don't think bonobos are. Not enough hormones left to rage that way.

Yeah, bonobos are more vegetarian. (Hitler was a vegetarian too.) Maybe, they need to be really hugry. Sort of like a bonobo donner party.

 

[bradford]

Anybody following the new ape species in the fairly recent news?
Chimp-like but much bigger, sometimes called "lion-killers"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bili_Ape

 

[Sparhawk]

Depending on the chimp troop it could be all three homosexuality, incest and pedophilia.
Bonobos are true practitioners of free love a couple dozen times a day.
We knew this about Luis. He's a little monkey too. Oooo Oooo

I forgot about this thread... Now, if 6.0F, 230lbs applies for "little", hey, Thank You!! (there goes the diet and my New Year resolution...) The monkey part I can't do a thing about...

L

 

[dobro p]

That's maybe closer to shame as I see it. I see Xiu1 as failure due to defects of character, disgrace, unworthiness, etc., something that better person would not have to go through.

I've worked on it some more, and here's the formulation I feel comfortable with: 'distressing knowledge of inadequacy or poor performance'.

 

[soulreaver]

Swing and a miss.

 

[dobro p]

*

 

[dobro p]

Yep. But I'm trying to avoid idiomatic renditions if I can. I do use the word 'bum' instead of sacrum though, in Hex 47.