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Helping someone: pointless or try anyway?

KateL21

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Hi everyone,

I am at a confused loss, and though I'm trying to take an emotional step back to see this set of answers clearly, I can really tell I'm just too close, and I'm worried that what I want is getting in the way of the reality of the situation, so I'm hoping for a little help.

I had an intense and deeply confusing, at times unsettling, friendship with someone (the only person I've asked questions about in the past here, and I should clarify that it was only a friendship though my feelings were more for a long stretch of it) which ended extremely abruptly when something innocent I said was taken with such a resolved assumption of intentional hurt that he calmly spoke his mind, cut me off, and it was done.

So many things during our friendship felt disconnected to what I instinctively knew to be healthy in various ways, but in other ways he was astounding in his abilities to see things from angles I didn't, that would then help me immensely. So I had this very troubling, torn, inner turmoil about how I felt, what his influence was on me, and what to do about him.

So when this happened, I wasn't entirely shocked I guess, but there were so many unusual feelings and aspects it was overwhelming for a while. Friendships are normally so natural and even-keel for me, and this was like a romantic breakup without having any sex first, it was so weird. As weeks went by and I sifted through and felt like I was finding my centre again, and therefore finding detached understanding and benevolence toward him, it was like a lot of the strange dynamic between us had begun to fall away and I was seeing more clearly the disconnects within him, and how his own, quite private pain affects how he responds to others.

This is just at the, I don't know, 'developmental stage' of the idea of a desire to help him in some way. Nothing really more fleshed out than that, and I'm also aware of my own need to continue working on and strengthening myself before I would likely be of any effective help to him. That is, if he'd even listen to me.

However, I don't think it's for me to worry about if he'd listen or not, but more about whether my heart is telling me to reach out, and to reach out for the right reasons. Then the chips can fall where they may and I remain true to myself with whatever choices I've made.

Anyway, sorry for the deep thoughts but I figure where my head is at may contribute to making sense of the answers I received.

I asked three questions:

How would x receive my attempt to help him?

42.1 > 20

From what I've read, this appears to be auspicious, saying go ahead and try, the odds are in your favour even if you don't think it's possible, as long as it's based in selflessness.

So here I thought, wow, awesome, better than I expected! So I then asked - What kind of approach from me would be of most benefit to x?

23.2.4 > 64

Which looks to me to be saying, there is no approach that's going to work, at least right now. And it might also be pointing to looking within and seeing if I've got delusions about the situation? Like, nothing's going to work because I've got this all wrong in the first place? I was so confused by this, and it sounded so hopeless so next I asked -

How correct is my assessment that nothing I could attempt with x will have a positive effect?

13.5 > 30

Which is talking about making your feelings known and stop fighting the desire to attempt closeness because you'll find joy if you surrender.

So to sum up these three answers, what I am reading is, "If you try to help him it will be positive but actually attempting to will get you nowhere so don't even try but if you do try you'll be happy you did." Which... what?

Might it be saying sort of what I already said above, that I shouldn't worry about the outcome, but that it would be better to reach out than to not? Or could it be saying, "I know you'd like to help, but it would be pointless". I've begun to think in circles a little so this is why I'd really appreciate some help.

Thank you to anyone willing to take this on :)
 

Juliah

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Hi KateL21,

Sorry for my question, but I did not understand what you wanted to help him with.
 

KateL21

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Hi Juliah - no of course, ask whatever you like!

I mean help in understanding or even healing his own pain, that I feel I've gained insight into since having the distance to see it, and I know he's fairly obstinate against. Kind of a non-drastic "helping someone who doesn't think they have a problem" situation, which has me very tentative and aware of my own potential arrogance in wondering if I could help at all or might I just cause damage.
 

Trojina

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However, I don't think it's for me to worry about if he'd listen or not, but more about whether my heart is telling me to reach out, and to reach out for the right reasons. Then the chips can fall where they may and I remain true to myself with whatever choices I've made.

Anyway, sorry for the deep thoughts but I figure where my head is at may contribute to making sense of the answers I received.

I asked three questions:

How would x receive my attempt to help him?

42.1 > 20

Why do you think he needs help ? Without reference to Yi's response why on earth would you reach out to someone who cut you off and why would you think they needed help from you ? If they did they wouldn't have cut you off so no of course don't reach out to him is my view....do you want to be kicked in the teeth one more time ?

Er Yi however seems to be saying yes reach out, go for it....although I have my suspicions at times 42 really isn't what we read it is. But yes the advice seems to be saying pour our out generosity to this person who has treated you like dog poo. Odd but then we consult Yi to get another perspective so there it is.

From what I've read, this appears to be auspicious, saying go ahead and try, the odds are in your favour even if you don't think it's possible, as long as it's based in selflessness.

Yes it seems generosity is the way to go...god or Yi alone knows why since he wants nothing to do with you.

So here I thought, wow, awesome, better than I expected! So I then asked - What kind of approach from me would be of most benefit to x?

23.2.4 > 64

Ah....the 42.1 is making sense more...maybe. I mean maybe the 42.1 was saying what a nice person you are ? You asked how he'd receive it so another way to take it is he'd think it was his lucky day...although I don't find that interpretation very feasible.


Which looks to me to be saying, there is no approach that's going to work, at least right now. And it might also be pointing to looking within and seeing if I've got delusions about the situation? Like, nothing's going to work because I've got this all wrong in the first place? I was so confused by this, and it sounded so hopeless so next I asked -



It's terribly easy to forget how being treated well feels when you fall for someone so your delusions are completely understandable if they are delusions. Anyway how do you mean 'work' in what way ? I mean what would an approach working entail ? 23 is painful and I think contacting him would be painful


How correct is my assessment that nothing I could attempt with x will have a positive effect?

13.5 > 30

Which is talking about making your feelings known and stop fighting the desire to attempt closeness because you'll find joy if you surrender.

Hmmm this is a roller coaster ride of readings...good grief. I think this is saying you could have a positive effect and yes you can clear up misunderstandings....and yes this contradicts the 23 cast

So to sum up these three answers, what I am reading is, "If you try to help him it will be positive but actually attempting to will get you nowhere so don't even try but if you do try you'll be happy you did." Which... what?

Beats me



Might it be saying sort of what I already said above, that I shouldn't worry about the outcome, but that it would be better to reach out than to not? Or could it be saying, "I know you'd like to help, but it would be pointless". I've begun to think in circles a little so this is why I'd really appreciate some help.

Thank you to anyone willing to take this on :)

It's hard to know what your aim is here, what you mean when you say 'would this work'. I think you are right in the above paragraph. I think maybe you could leave an open line of communication for him which includes an offer of the help you think he needs and then the ball is in his court ?

That seems the most practical thing to do. The only thing that would be a problem is going ahead and reaching out again might bring you even more pain. If you feel you can handle it why not just drop him a line. He may be glad you did if he cannot get over his pride to contact you.

So in a conglomeration of me and Yi yes go ahead and reach out but drop the whole 'selfless' thing. You have a self and it matters and you aren't there to extinguish yourself in order to make him feel better. How you feel matters too. Going the whole selfless route goes to 23 here yet your genuine spirit of generosity is good. Perhaps you must hold to the warm light of your generosity whilst still having regard for yourself ?
 

Juliah

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Kate,

Proceeding from my own experience of dialogue with the IC I can say that the IC is a deeply personal resource for self-discovery, and your discernment and heart will serve your better than anyone's insights. Not being you but another person who has read your story, I'll comment on your first cast.

I'd say that the relating hex describes the situation you are living through, your mental approaching X and going again, hesitant state of mind and centering your Self in an effort to discern X. 42.1 is a line of "sublime good fortune" which suggests that your impulse can be accepted. However, there is a warning against being too much involved into the issue and self-deception: there could come a point that all your activity will throw you from your goal much further since the key here is detached viewing from a distance (20). It requires careful considering. (And, by the way, 23.2.4 > 64 tells about that bluntly.)
 

KateL21

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Hi Trojina - it's rather reassuring to know this looks like a mess of a combination of answers to more than just me :). Thanks for the insight and the questions.

I'll try to flesh it out a bit so it all kind of makes more sense. It's pretty convoluted and pretty deep - at least for me! But I'll try, and hopefully it'll answer some of your questions, too.

Part of my own personal learning has involved my Self, my Shadow, my ego, all the juicy Carl Jung stuff. And in my own desire for balance between feeling and logic, part of what I feel is very important is practising loving detachment, and differentiating between that, and letting my feelings be trodden on. If I have calm, strong confidence in who I am and what my intentions are, and know they're based in love, I can't be harmed by another's words or opinions. So, within our friendship we had a responsibility to care for each other's feelings, and he broke that, and it was painful. But because that doesn't exist anymore, after the work I've done to understand it all, I'm not concerned with any reaction from him hurting me. The love I have for him is the big-picture sort. I don't have a problem emotionally detaching from someone who wants to detach from me, which I think is directly related to how much conscious effort I've made in recognizing the workings of my ego.

This person in question is remarkably intelligent, perceptive, intellectual, and in his own way, loving. All he seems to want to do is help people, though from an emotional distance. His logical side is insanely advanced, and I was not aware of this for most of our friendship (this is an under-two-years situation), but though he was aware his main concern was to strengthen and build on his feeling side, he was blind to his ingrained inability to do so, so he thought he was doing quite well. I knew something was off about that, where he was compared to where he thought he was, though at a loss as to what exactly was wrong. His words and behaviours didn't quite mesh for me and was a constant source of second-guessing. Then once we slowly became closer and closer friends, his childhood history began to unfold in conversation and my instincts hollered "OH MY GOD THAT'S IT". It usually is our childhood I suppose, but anyway that's what happened.

I would only softly broach any of that, because he was unbelievably good at being irrationally low-vibration volatile when the conversation got too close to being about him in a deep way he wasn't prepared for, and having it come across like he was being logical and the problem, whatever it was, was the other person's. And I honestly think he had no idea he was doing this, because his self-preservation began forming when he was practically still an infant.

I believe he shut me out specifically because he sensed I was getting through the cracks in his walls. My intuition is usually quite dependable, and in hindsight it's obvious what a threat that was to his unconscious. See, okay, the thing is, I truly believe he has some form of childhood developmental trauma, starting well before the age of 36 months. But I don't know NEARLY enough to go throwing around statements like that to him. It's extremely irresponsible and potentially dangerous and altogether messy. And in a way it's none of my business, but I also know that I've gotten closer to him than any other person in his life right now, so I also feel like, if not me, who? Because he's a wonderful person and deserves happiness and if I see a potential way out for him that he doesn't, is it not my responsibility as having once been his friend and as one of the few he allowed even for a moment behind the veil, to offer to show him? Ugh. So messy.

The way he treated me wasn't about me. Not really. The one way it was about me was because the tiny voice inside him that wants to feel in a healthy way, wants to be integrated and loved, recognized me as someone with access to that side. But the stronger, painfully built-up side was having none of it, and finally lashed out with something practically made of thin air to stop my chipping away at the.. whatever.. fortress, basically.

And for clarity I should explain why I even allowed a strange dynamic like that to go on for so long. When we met, my emotional, irrational side was probably at its highest, had its strongest grip on me, and I could feel it. I was so bothered by it and felt helpless. We immediately clicked on many of the usual friendship levels, but also on those deeper-sensing ones. He was the one who introduced me to Jung, and the way it helped me felt nothing short of phenomenal. Unfortunately, though it brought balance to the rest of my life, it somehow crippled my ability to see clearly when I saw him. Like, he was my saving grace, he could do no wrong, he was so smart and blah blah blah. So when his own issues began surfacing and required questioning from me - I was questioning myself instead, for questioning him at all. I'd ended up in such an unfamiliar hex 54 state, it was nonsensical to me so I kept denying it. So in a very important way, even though why we parted ways was terrible, the fact that I was cut off from him was an incredibly fortunate thing for my emotional re-righting, if you know what I mean. I was almost in thrall, so I don't know if I could have pulled away myself. It sucks to think I couldn't, so I don't dwell because there's no point.

I'm starting to wonder, based on how I feel really quite un-hurtable about all this, if the pain of 23 is his? If what I'm thinking is his underlying issue is correct, and by broaching this it would feel devastating to him, like actually 'ping' something in him because it's right?

As I'd originally said, it's only the 'developmental stage' of the idea of helping, but what I mean by my aim, by 'would it work', is I guess… to somehow be able to express some version of my understanding of where his disjointed behaviour comes from, in a way that allows him to hear what I'm saying through the obstinate wall of denial. That he could very likely have something genuinely wrong that he could get professional help for.



Hi again Juliah - thank you for your insight as well. I do worry about self-deception, though whether it's about what I think is happening in him, or whether I could make any difference to him at all if I try, I don't know. And I definitely do have a sense that I'm not at a point of being ready to help even if I could yet. That more time and, yeah, exactly, Contemplation, needs to happen before I make any decisions on whether to try, and if so, how to try.
 
D

diamanda

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How would x receive my attempt to help him?
42.1 > 20

42 means that someone higher (he) helps someone lower (you).
I'm saying this because of the fact that you're in love, and he's not, so he's got the upper hand.
Here it's only the very first line changing, and 20 shows considering a situation.
So I believe he would hear you out, and either think about it or watch from afar.
From a different perspective, you should think who needs to be helped here.
I'm afraid it sounds like it's you who needs him, you need his presence, because you're in love.

What kind of approach from me would be of most benefit to x?
23.2.4 > 64

The answer speaks of looming disaster, which indeed turns up and causes suffering.
And 64 is something not completed.
Perhaps if you let him know how much you're suffering without him?
Sorry to say this, but it sounds like you're kidding yourself that you're doing this to benefit him.
And I know you said that you're not suffering or anything, but then again it just doesn't sound like you're fine without him.

How correct is my assessment that nothing I could attempt with x will have a positive effect?
13.5 > 30

This line speaks of old friends.
I guess you're just a friend to him, and at some point you'll again meet (as friends).

You say he cut you off suddenly, and with a ridiculous excuse - well, i ching apart, this is the surest sign he's found someone else I'm afraid.
 

KateL21

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Hi diamanda,

I do see where you're coming from with how you see this, and I did absolutely have more feelings for him for a large portion of time, while he only had friendship feelings for me. However, I know what it is to be deeply in love and this was not that. It was something strong though, definitely, but it also didn't exist for the entire duration of our friendship. It was something we actually talked through which helped the romantic aspect dissipate for me.

And you have to understand, if there was a way I could get him help without his awareness that I had anything to do with it I would choose that route. I've even thought of snail-mailing him books with no return address, but he'd know it was me because he's a hermit and I'm the only one he talks about all this stuff with anyway. And for all the initial pain and suffering it did cause, there's also a huge sense of relief that he's gone. It was just not a 'right' thing, and I do feel free of it, not missing it, him, in several ways. The ways he was amazing, of course I miss. The ways he really wasn't, I really, really don't.

So it's not that I want him back in my life, I don't really think no matter what work each of us do on ourselves it would probably be a good idea. I just want his happiness and his healing, for himself. Because as much as he drove me crazy and really could have been less of a di...fficult sort... at times, he's a truly wonderful, suffering person who deserves a good life.
 

radiofreewill

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Hi KateL21,

Thanks for sharing. I think the Yi is advising you to take the altruistic high road in this situation, by sensitively sharing with him an insight into self-generated suffering, which seems to you to be objectively 'true' in his case - regardless of what he may think of you ~ and just leave it at that.

"Only our friends will tell us when we have food stuck in our teeth."

1 - How would x receive my attempt to help him?

42.1 > 20 = The relationship will increase if he can "see" for himself the insights that you share with him.

2- What kind of approach from me would be of most benefit to x?

23.2.4 > 64 = Mountain in 'bed' of Earth, pulling apart ~ Physicality is untimely for now.

3 - How correct is my assessment that nothing I could attempt with x will have a positive effect?

13.5 > 30 = Au contraire, the greatest fellowship shares true insights together ~ Who knows where it can go from there?

Also, you might find "The Tao of Birth Days" to be a handy reference for additional insights into the cosmos of personalities and relationship dynamics ~ I have found it to be uncannily accurate about 80% of the time.
 

KateL21

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Radiofreewill, I find this so helpful. Thank you.

It feels so simply honest and balanced, with paying heed to both our sides of the situation. The confusion I had about the seemingly disparate answers makes much more sense now.

Can I ask to clarify though - in answer to my second question, I took that to mean something like an email is better than seeing him in person. Or do you mean more the time isn't yet right? I personally don't feel ready yet anyway but I wondered how you meant that.
 

radiofreewill

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Thanks, KateL21, I'm new to the site, too.

Having read through the thread above ~ which is great ~ thank you, Juliah ~ I'd just like to say how nice it is to be a part of "real" people sharing collegially.

On question 2 ~ "What kind of approach from me would be of most benefit to x?" ~ it looks like the Yi came back with what approach not to take ~ that is to steer away from attempting to connect via the physical/feelings/emotions route ~ saying that you won't be able to get across to him that way.

Rather, from the answer to question 3, imho, your avenue of best fortune is to Platonically share sagely wisdom in the form of game-changing insights, freighted with the transformational power to illuminate the gloomy tabernacle of his (possibly) traumatized psyche, which will then lead him back to the balanced mind/body spectrum of his full humanity.

For instance, it can be a game-changer for some people to read and realize: "I am not my trauma ~ I am the awareness of my trauma."

So, I would recommend, if you don't mind me offering it up, that you read the book "The Untethered Soul" by Michael Singer, which is loaded with game-changing insights, and highly compatible with Jung. If you like it, and feel that it has relevance in this situation, then consider mailing it to him, with your return address, and a note encouraging him to check it out, too?
 

KateL21

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radiofreewill, I can't thank you enough.

Your understanding of the second answer is exactly who he is. He searches for and thinks he has balance between logic and feeling, but approaching him with feeling, which is what I instinctively would have done, would have fallen on deaf ears. That, now that I read this, is what the little frustrated niggle in the back of my mind was telling me this whole time - that if there was a way that felt right I'd know, and that I hadn't found it yet.

Your view of the third answer is also speaking his language, and the suggestion of the book literally feels like icing on the 'insight cake'. I took a look at it, and to be perfectly honest, it's just been ordered. Whether I send it to him or not, I need to read this, too.

I know I have a long, careful road ahead before I decide what to do or say, if anything, but there's shape to it now, a shape I'm very satisfied with, for which I'm so very grateful.



And I appreciate all the kind help and insight of everyone who was willing to slog through these questions and my … verbose (!) story. So thank you, all of you, once again. :)
 

radiofreewill

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Thanks, KateL21 ~ I'm glad I could be helpful. I hope you enjoy the book. It's been my honor to share in your process!
 

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