Hex 41, Line 4, Sending the message

[gnichi]

Dear all,

I wonder if anyone can explain why Hilary and Lise have the text

Sending the message swiftly

For Line 4, hex 41.

Non of the other translations mention a message. I would be grateful for clarification.

Thank you.

 

[bradford]

 

[gnichi]

Thank you.

I still would like to know why Hilary and Lise have the text

Send the message swiftly

Since there is nothing in the Chinese characters that mention a message. Why do they make this interpretation?

 

[my_key]

I have seen here https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=使
that shi is given as meaning cause, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.
This could be linked with why Hilary and LiSe use the word messenger.

 

[gnichi]

Thank you for your reply and for taking the time. This helps.

 

[charly]

I have seen here https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=使
that shi is given as meaning cause, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.
This could be linked with why Hilary and LiSe use the word messenger.

Hi, Michael:

I always believed that Lise was speaking of WORDLESS MESSAGES OF URGENT LOVE, but before your post I never see where was the MESSAGE.

 

[my_key]

Hi, Michael:

I always believed that Lise was speaking of WORDLESS MESSAGES OF URGENT LOVE, but before your post I never see where was the MESSAGE.

Hi Charly
I've not found where LiSe talks about messenger, but that is by the by.

41.1 appears at the start of a new way of expansion through decreasing that which has been holding us back. The messenger comes to us and so in this place in the hexagram we can strike instinctively, while the iron is hot. Everything is new here, or newly loosened, and intuitive connections (wordless messages) help us see things more clearly, however if we think about it all too much we lose the connection with it i.e. the newly formed 'wordless messages of urgent love'. We can proceed swiftly and are encouraged to do so as the trust in ourselves, in our connection with our truth is not being eroded as it was previously.

...or maybe it's nothing like that at all.

 

[charly]

Hi Charly
I've not found where LiSe talks about messenger, but that is by the by.

41.1 appears at the start of a new way of expansion through decreasing that which has been holding us back. The messenger comes to us and so in this place in the hexagram we can strike instinctively, while the iron is hot. Everything is new here, or newly loosened, and intuitive connections (wordless messages) help us see things more clearly, however if we think about it all too much we lose the connection with it i.e. the newly formed 'wordless messages of urgent love'. We can proceed swiftly and are encouraged to do so as the trust in ourselves, in our connection with our truth is not being eroded as it was previously.

...or maybe it's nothing like that at all.

Hi, Michael:

My broadband collapsed, my pots remains unended.

This is Lise about 41.4:

Line 4 yin: Decreasing one's afflictions, and sending the message swiftly brings joy. No fault.
Trigram Mountain turns into Fire. Make others want contact with you. Clean up yourself, be tolerant and clear – nobody wants an arrogant, rude or smelly friend, neither an insecure or grovelling one. Make yourself your own best version and it will shine on your surroundings as well.

SUN. At left a hand seen from above: the palm (1), and at right a cauldron, a ding (3) with a circle (2), meaning round or empty. In all ages, long before any arithmetic, the circle indicated already 'empty', hollow, nothing, zero. The hand is a special form, meaning to clasp one's hands and to bow with reverence. But of course empty has two sides: the space where one can receive - or the lack of substance. SUN: decrease; damage; harm; lose, be mean/shabby, be sarcastic/caustic.
LiseHeyboer, The book of the moon. Hexagram 41.
Links:

Hex.41

www.yijing.nl

Story 41

www.yijing.nl

Of course, my own translation differs, even at the image of SUN I see something like a hand throwing a coin into a sacred vessel. Maybe a stranger, say, one of us, paying a tribute of love to a goddess or a priestess, being the circle the smallest coin available for the offering.

Mine:
41.4 (corrected)

損其疾使遄有喜。无咎。
sun3 qi2 ji2 shi3 chuan2 you3 xi3 wu2 jiu4
DIMINISHING ONE’S ENVY CAUSES QUICKLY HAVE HAPPINESS. NO WRONG.
Controlling one’s envy and pride will bring joy quickly.
​

All the best,

Charly

 

[my_key]

Hi, Michael:

My broadband collapsed, my pots remains unended.

This is Lise about 41.4:


Of course, my own translation differs, even at the image of SUN I see something like a hand throwing a coin into a sacred vessel. Maybe a stranger, say, one of us, paying a tribute of love to a goddess or a priestess, being the circle the smallest coin available for the offering.

Mine:
41.1

損其疾使遄有喜。无咎。
sun3 qi2 ji2 shi3 chuan2 you3 xi3 wu2 jiu4
DIMINISHING ONE’S ENVY CAUSES QUICKLY HAVE HAPPINESS. NO WRONG.
Controlling one’s envy and pride will bring joy quickly.
​

All the best,

Charly

Hi Charly

"My broadband collapsed, my pots remains unended. "Which line is this a translation of?

It helps if I had looked at the correct line to find the message connection. It seems that I took a detour and was pulled away to 41.1....however it appears this is necessary thing to do according to Alfred Huang.

"The fourth line is a yin element at a yin place, surrounded by two yin elements above and below. There is too much yin and thus there is a shortcoming. One at this place responds to the yang element on the bottom. She relies on the help of the one at the bottom, who is strong and firm. When she obtains help and support, her ailment is alleviated. This line tells us that a true friend is beneficial and important in helping diminish one's shortcomings. "

41.1 I would look at the situation as one wider than affected by envy alone. It may be more than just envy (or pride), that has risen up from our firey past.

41.1 - Swiftly engage with ones firey past. No Mistake. Deliberate how far to take it.
41.4 - Diminish ones suffering. Quickly embrace the message ( of line 1) to feel the love. No Mistake

...or maybe it's nothing like that at all.

 

[charly]

Hi Charly

... "Which line is this a translation of?

Hi, Michael:

Of course it was a translation of 41.4, my mistake! The message connection is in 41.4 although I've preferred to translate the word in the causative verbal sense to MAKE, to CAUSE, to PROVOKE instread of MESSENGER which is also suitable.

I believe that 41.1 provides the connection with LOVE given that it begins with «Stop working and go quickly...» because when LOVE CALLS, the attention to work DIMINISHES...

I see the hand giving and the vessel receiving, the mountain diminishing and the pond increasing. In the context of LOVE envy (and pride) must diminish, the MOUNTAIN who keeps stiff, for increasing LIFE, the POND who has the JOY of LIFE.

In the context of ANCESTORS WORSHIP, ancestors always call for POSTERITY. For them to have no posterity is the worst among all unfilial things...

All the best,

Charly

 

[my_key]

Hi Charly

Of course it was a translation of 41.4, my mistake!

Very 21st Century. I'm sure the ancestors are pleased that these connections are being made.

I believe that 41.1 provides the connection with LOVE given that it begins with «Stop working and go quickly...» because when LOVE CALLS, the attention to work DIMINISHES...

41.4 - Hasten your mission to collect the love.

Karcher comments that for Hex 41 "Diminishing is the offering: 'What is below gives to what is above'. " The results of Diminishing are reaped in Hex 42. The 'stop working' aspect of 41.1 could be a letting go of or putting down of the 'influence under which you are labouring'. This could well be the message or indeed the mission(the journey you have to go on, the process you have to go through). This influence could well be a piece of ancestral baggage that the lineage has been carrying for a long time too.

41.5 is the place where the message originating in 41.1, from the deliberations and reflections, becomes crystal clear and 41.6 is the place where the message is successfully understood and adopted. The mission / message is seen with a new awareness; the message becomes a part of you...and by definition part of the ancestral line for the generations to come...... and for those that have had their time. Here the love shines with a new purpose, with which you are perfectly entitled spread it all around.

 

[hilary]

I have seen here https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=使
that shi is given as meaning cause, send on a mission, order; envoy, messenger, ambassador.
This could be linked with why Hilary and LiSe use the word messenger.

That was it, for me - 使 meaning 'send (as envoy)', and 'send quickly' by itself not making that much sense.

 

[my_key]

That was it, for me - 使 meaning 'send (as envoy)', and 'send quickly' by itself not making that much sense.

Hi Hilary

Yes, 'send quickly' needs something to send and possibly a path to send it along or a recipient; a destination. You mention the message in your commentary

The message re-establishes inner connection and communication first of all.

The message is being written in line 1, through reflecting on the ignorant tangles of childhood and youthful folly, and arrives waiting to be opened at line 4 where it becomes a catalyst for introducing opposing and diverse thoughts, feelings, behaviours which can dismantle the foundations of what has been understood before. Seeds planted begin to sprout a possibility of seeing things differently; of new blooms at line 4 - new lines of communication have been opened up leading to opportunities for wider displays of your true self, devoid of the tangles, at line 5.

....or maybe not......

 

[charly]

Hi Charly
Very 21st Century. I'm sure the ancestors are pleased that these connections are being made ...

Hi; Michael:

About pleasing the ancestors:

孟子 曰: 不孝有三，無 後為大。…
meng4_zi3: bu4 xiao4 you3, san1 wu2 hou4 wei2 da4.
MENG_ZI SAIS: NOT FILIAL HAVE THREE NO POSTERITY IS GREAT
Mencius says: «Unfilial tings there are many, to have no posterity is the worst...»​

Modified from Chinese Text Project: Mengzi, Li Lou I, 26
that brings the chinese text with Legge's translation.
Link: https://ctext.org/mengzi/li-lou-i

Be said that ancient chinese ancestors used to go to tomb with images of descendants fulfilling the genesiac mandate «... be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth ...» (1), not to speak of the taste for assorted libraries with handcopied books of philosophy, poetry, medicine, bedchamber arts...

All the best,

Charly
_________________________
(1) Genesis 1:28 King James Version (KJV)
Ch.

 

[charly]

Hi, Michael:

More about Ancestor's interests:

Source:
Bret Hisch: Women in Imperial China, London 2016, pages 10-11.
Available at Google Books: https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=1L7kDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA10&dq=bret+hinsch+women+imperial+china+"Fu+Hao+should+marry"&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiulqjDsJ_oAhXCDrkGHXJEBfEQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=bret hinsch women imperial china "Fu Hao should marry"&f=false

All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

... Karcher comments that for Hex 41 "Diminishing is the offering: 'What is below gives to what is above'. " The results of Diminishing are reaped in Hex 42. The 'stop working' aspect of 41.1 could be a letting go of or putting down of the 'influence under which you are labouring'. This could well be the message or indeed the mission(the journey you have to go on, the process you have to go through). This influence could well be a piece of ancestral baggage that the lineage has been carrying for a long time too.
...

Hi Michael:

Karcher connects H.41 / H.42 with 禳 rang2, sacrifice for avoiding calamity:

The Heart of Change: The Rang Ritual of Giving Away
The journey to the heart of Change begins with the old Chinese character rang/jang and the ancient ritual of “acquiring something to give and giving it away in order to truly have it”. The Rang Ritual is embodied in the Pair 41:42 The Offering and the Blessing and a gesture that shows two open hands, palms up, that cede the way to others...

Stephen Karcher: Living Change
Link: https://ichinglivingchange.org/room-guideways-articles/
Many articles available in pdf, like this:

https://2d7jnsqyszo3p749240y14t1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/The-Heart-of-Change.pdf

For those interested in Karcher's approach there is available the book Mothering Change by Julie Chase Daniel and Stephen Karcher here:

I Ching: Mothering Change

Characters with the component xiang1 for spotting possible connections:
襄 xiang1: to help / to assist / mutual assistance / to rush into or up / to raise or hold up / high / tall / old variant of 欀 / chariot horse (old) / change (old)
禳 rang2: sacrifice for avoiding calamity
讓 rang4: to yield / to concede / to permit / to let sb do sth / to have sb do sth / to make sb (feel sad etc) / by (indicates the agent in a passive clause, like 被[bei4])
嚷 rang3, rang1: shout, brawl, make uproar, cry
勷 rang2, xiang1: urgent, in haste, hurriedly, help
穰 rang2: abundant / stalk of grain
欀 xiang1: inner lining of wooden utensils / component beam used in building construction / species of oak tree with medicinal bark (old)

(to be continued)​

All the best,

Charly