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yellowblue

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Chris,

Your interpretation say that "to be capable of unity requires sincerity. this may be all one has at the start".

This line is the strongest point of unity in hex 8. It IS what gives them their unity. It is a breakdown of that that causes the separation that advances towards line 6.

Even line five seems to indicate a breakdown in the loyalty and trust.

Deb
 

chrislofting

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Hi Deb,

you wrote
>
> Chris,
>
> Your interpretation say that "to be capable of unity
> requires sincerity. this may be all one has at the start".
>
> This line is the strongest point of unity in hex 8. It IS
> what gives them their unity. It is a breakdown of that that
> causes the separation that advances towards line 6.
>
> Even line five seems to indicate a breakdown in the loyalty
> and trust.
>

Ummm... lets see, my original ICPlus line comments (done back pre 1995 when the first website started) are:

Line 1
"To be capable of unity requires sincerity. This may be all one has at the start."

Line 2
"The desire for unity must come from the heart not from the mind, as may be found in an opportunist."

Line 3
"There are times when we attract the wrong people. Be sociable but not intimate."

Line 4
"One's firm relationship with outside people is tested. A favourable result." In ordering the unfamiliar, in uniting things, setting a sense of 'belonging', one must possess the unfamilar, encapsulate it, and through firm actions ensure all you get into the group is the 'wheat'. This action will be to one's advantage.

Line 5
"A wise and receptive [trusting] ruler. Those who come and are suited stay. Those who wish to, can leave. These options are controlled by the people rather than the ruler."

Line 6
"Without a solid centre of attraction (head), unity fails. There is no 'completion' in that things end through dispersion; Blown away in the wind."


I associate hexagram 8 with a focus on the sense of belonging and its manipulation to assert control - from devotion-to-another/others (earth in bottom position) comes control (water in top position).

The eranos text for hexagram 08 is:

"PI : order things and put them in classes, compare and select; find what you belong with; compare, sort, examine correspondances; select and harmonize; unite. The ideogram: person who stops walking, looking around to examine and compare."

The IDM category has a context of contractive blending (seeking of wholeness by drawing something 'in') within which operates a text of contractive bounding (a focus on parts, of US from THEM, the forming of a boundary with a focus on protection and so a focus on distinctions etc)

We can go 'deeper' to derive the core elements of hex 08 as:

"The generic properties of hexagram 08 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 20 with the generic properties of hexagram 42.
Here we mix the properties of an attraction that motivates (be it someone/something) - hexagram 20 - with a focus on augmentation and so 'transcendence' (hexagram 42) to give us the generic properties of hexagram 08."


When viewed from the perspective of a line change as manifesting a pulling AWAY from the archetype that is the hexagram, so line 1 changing associates with a distortion of 08 by the qualities of hexagram 03 and a focus on trying too hard can cause problems at the beginning such that one has to recognise one only needs sincerity at the start, all else follows, dont struggle, no need to make things more difficult than they can be in any beginning. Overall there is a sense, a demand to just 'surrender'. So we can see the 'warning' nature of the line comment here.

Move to line 2 and the distortion of 08 is reflected in the relationship to hexagram 29 where the overall focus is on containment and control which reflects an intent rather than some heart-felt movement that is 'natural' rather than contrived - the exaggeration here is linked to an opportunist who will exploit a situation to contain and so gain control etc and so we can also fit the 'warning' focus on to this line change.

Move to line 3 and the relationship, the distortion in expression of 08, is sourced in hexagram 39. Sticking out from the mindless flow of things can attract anyone such that their being attracted to you does not necessarily mean they are 'likeminded' but more so simply seeking something to cling to for while! ;-) The warning here is to welcome them but lets not get too carried away with them! (gets into the whole concept of trust in others, all part of the earth trigram issues)

Move to line 4 and the distortion in expression of 08 is sourced in hexagram 45. The focus in 45 is on congregating to celebrate the faith, to get 'closer' more 'intimate' with 'god' or whatever is the belief. This congregating means interactions with 'outside' people to elicit 'likemindedness' but that can mean going overboard on those dealings where the need is to just take the 'good bits' to be absorbed into the collective, no more than that. ;-)

Move to line 5 and the distortion is with hexagram 02 - the focus on devotion and total trust in another/others. Note the comment in the line that "these options are controlled by the people rather than the ruler" - as is all group activity. Here the 'rules' of belonging are simple, if you sense you 'fit' then stay, if you sense you do not then you are free to go, there is no 'price' to pay.

These 'rules' reflect social dynamics not edicts from the 'god' etc. The warning here is for any 'cult' or 'spiritual collective' etc to allow for the dynamics to be centered in the relationships surrounding the 'god', not 'in' the 'god' - IOW a focus on integrating over differentiating.

Hexagram 08 is integrating both in particular (top line yin) and in general (bottom line yin) and the attractiveness, the sense of belonging that the hexagram represents is passive overall but can become 'cult' like and so an exaggeration of what it should be - gets into the influence of the hexagram that 08 pairs with in the binary sequence - hexagram 20 - where the focus is on the 'leader' as a shining example and so a source of motivation (20 is more differentiating than 08 in that it has a yang top line).

Thus the DARK elements of 08 reflect cults and the DARK elements of 20 reflect being used as an example, to be made an example of - i.e. punishment etc of one to 'influence' the many. (common practice in cults).

Move to line 6 and the warning is linked to hexagram 20 - admiring. The warning covers the LACK of such a person, such a source of motivation, where if not present there is 'nothing', it has all been like a tornado, lots of 'wind' that once it calms down there is nothing. This gets into the issues of charismatic leaders, even if passive in form, to act as agents of differentiating WITHIN the overall focus on integrating. (the top trigram of 20 is wind, a focus on cultivation, being influencial, like a rising wind)

These comments help? I think you can see how easily we can interpret the line changes as warnings about drifting 'away' from the archetype that is 08 (or any hexagram) and as such reflect 'shape shifting', the core remains constant, the exterior, the expressions vary.

I am endevouring to put up comments for all 63 possible line changes per hexagram off the "Hexagram Notes" pages based on this 'shape shifting' perspective. - it takes time though and you have to be 'in the mood'! ;-)

Chris.
 
D

dharma

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This was absolutely great Chris, thanks!<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I am endevouring to put up comments for all 63 possible line changes per hexagram off the "Hexagram Notes" pages based on this 'shape shifting' perspective. - it takes time though and you have to be 'in the mood'! ;-)<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>One can only hope the mood will strike often
happy.gif


<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>
 

cal val

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I don't see that line 5 of Chris' interpretation indicates a breakdown at all, and I see Chris' point about control completely in that line.

Control is all about a lack of trust. Self-trust to be exact. When one does not trust oneself and inwardly feels out of control, one tries to control others. When one trusts oneself, one does not need to control others. Line 5 says "Don't try to control others...trust." This avoids conflict.

I find it the most wonderful coincidence that this thread was started because I was contemplating writing an open letter to Chris about an experience I just had on his site. I was actually contemplating posting this in the 44.2 to 33 thread, but this is the perfect place and the perfect opportunity. It's like one of the events happening at the appointed time in the appointed space for me!

A couple of nights ago I received an email from someone with advice in it. Well I puzzled over it because there was no real foundation to the advice. It was if the person wasn't "listening." And I contemplated the email and the advice... more the motivation than anything else because of the lack of foundation in the advice. Apparently, the motivation was not as important for me to know as for the giver of the advice to know because...

Last night I was surfing Chris' site. And when I went to bed, I left my computer on and the browser open...to his site. This morning while I was outside drinking my first cup of coffee and smoking a cig, I thought about the advice, the motivation, blah blah blah. I came in...still sleepy...and threw the coins, and the answer was 44.2 to 33. But then I realized I hadn't formulated a question...ooops! I decided to read the interpretation anyway, and there was Chris' site looking at me. Chris is probably already laughing at this point because I'm sure he's got his 44.2 memorized. For the rest of you, it reads:

"Holding on to one's possessions (abundance). No harm in this. Not advantageous to receive visitors." [Retaining things - the past. This approach is acceptable but visitors should be avoided as they could influence you to let go.]"

In the thread dedicated to this line in which Steve Marshall and others had a lively discussion, Steve exhibited an amazing understanding of the symbolism in the line, but...Chris' interpretation spoke to me...plain and clear. And that's how I've been saying the Yi works. It speaks to people who want to hear... any way it can.

Well after that moment of glaring clarity, I asked a series of questions and referred to Chris' interpretations. I got precise, direct answers, felt such a sense of relief and left the computer feeling so much less anxious than I have since last Thursday. Consequently I had a great day today.

Thank you Chris. Thank you Yi. Thank you God.

Peace, love and understand,

Val
 
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yellowblue

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Chris,

Thanks so much. Makes so much sense and helps bunches!

Deb
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

You wrote:

> Chris is probably already
> laughing at this point because I'm sure he's got his 44.2
> memorized.

ummm... this 'memorising' thing seems to be fading! ;-(

>For the rest of you, it reads:
>
> "Holding on to one's possessions (abundance). No harm in
> this. Not advantageous to receive visitors." [Retaining
> things - the past. This approach is acceptable but visitors
> should be avoided as they could influence you to let go.]"
>

yes, if we interpret the line changes as movements AWAY from the archetype that is 44, then the influence is in the trickary of 33, the ability to 'draw you in' and so force a change. In the binary sequence 33 pairs with 31 and they both emphasise a generic concept of enticement with a context on blocking/quality control (discernment).

Hexagram 33 is more competitive in form, differentiating, more strongly focused on replacement when compared to 31 that has a more cooperative edge and so more prone to a sense of co-existence, integrating (in the trigram of lake, replacement is long-term. The sexual side of things is in the use of cooperative activity, sex etc, to enable replication (reflect, copy, mimic etc) of a preferred perspective that then, through that reproduction, can 'dilute' the presence of all other perspectives and over the long term replace all others (or thats how the theory goes! ;-) - the Chinese government is using this technique in Tibet - encouraging 'Han' migrants to go to Tibet and so 'dilute' the 'locals' and so remove the local focus on independence etc))

44 is already 'persuasive/seductive' in form (overall competitive, the heaven top, in a context of cultivation/influence/re-production - the wind trigram as base). The associated line comments of hexagram 44 reflect this overall focus on issues of holding on/letting go, the overall dynamic of pulling one way or the other:

Line 1
"Attachments tend to act as brakes [a balance]. Testing times but advantageous, especially if there is a specific goal or purpose in mind. Seeing possible dangers to one's wealth, one hang's on although this may not be enough." [Attempt to retain power]

Line 2
"Holding on to one's possessions (abundance). No harm in this. Not advantageous to receive visitors." [Retaining things - the past. This approach is acceptable but visitors should be avoided as they could influence you to let go.]

Line 3
"Legs sore to the bone, one pauses for breath. Further adversity. Without a goal or direction, misfortune. [Waiting ('pauses' to recover) leads nowhere. One must establish a path and go on.]" [Trying to hold on in adversity]

Line 4
"Holding on to nothing. Undertaking{rise-up} anything exposes one to danger." [valueless convictions]

Line 5
"Using baskets to hold melons [holding on to the cosmos using man made tools/materials]. Cherishing the [their] form (composure). Things fall, beginning from heaven." [Attempts to join (to hold) cosmos and man as one (family).]

Line 6
"Encounter, one's test of strength. Regret. No harm in this." [ A point of realization that one must eventually yield [spiritually?] despite one's position].


Thus we can interpret the line 2 change as 44 being exaggerated by the characteristics of 33 and so the warning about 'visitors'.

Note that, using the binary sequence of hexagrams, hexagram 44 pairs with 28 and this pair reflects the 'wind' versions of the pair of 31,33 that is the 'water' version of the overall emphasis on exchange, heaven top = competitive exchange, lake top = cooperative exchange. The set of PAIRS of hexagrams for this exchange focus is:

(cooperative, competitive)

43, 01 (heaven base)
58, 10 (lake base)
49, 13 (fire base)
17, 25 (thunder base)
28, 44 (wind base)
47, 06 (water base)
31, 33 (mountain base)
45, 12 (earth base)

Where does this exchange focus come from? Five-Phase! We are dealing with the phase of METAL that, when converted to a Western perspective, reflects the concept of Exchange (as in retail). This phase has two modes of operation, cooperative (lake trigram) and competitive (heaven trigram). Interestingly, the email you spoke of was a form of direct exchange....

The full cycle etc of five-phase is given in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icfive0.html It is not something uniquely 'Chinese', it has its roots in recursion and so maps directly onto the binary ordering of the I Ching and reflects some form of dynamic inherent in the species, and , based on evolution where we have adapted to the environment, reflects 'out there' in some way.

Chris.
 

cal val

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Chris...

First thank you so much. Second...WOW! What an eye opener! I'm stunned. Cooperative/competitive... I guess the Yi told me the motivation after all. It makes complete sense, but I never would have guessed. I'm such a Pollyanna. I thought it was more like "I have to, so I want you to also so we can commiserate together." *slaps forehead*

I feel disappointed. Competitiveness does nothing to nurture friendships.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

gene

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Hi everyone

Hexagram 8 is an interesting hexagram that I am still analyzing, (as with all of them actually). Not sure if the following exactly relates to everything that has gone on above, but there seems to be a core element in hexagram 8, and once it is formed, it is hard for anyone else to break in. Late comers are viewed with mistrust. It follows on the heels of hexagram 7, which shows a strong man in the second place who controls an entire army. In 7 there is at least a somewhat forced unification, and in 8 there is a unification based first on choice, and second, on being there at the beginning of the formation of the group. Outsiders are never totally trusted. This is common in life. You can see it especially in small towns, where the people may be very hospitable and generous, but never quite sure about the new comer. It takes much longer to gain acceptance. So here we have the formation of a group based on mutual trust and choice of each other. Life 5, of course, teaches us how to accept the choices people make. If they are destined to be part of the group, there choices will reflect that. We hold together with those who choose to be part of our group, and allow those who do not to go their own way. In 7 there is a difference, the army stays together because one man or group of men hold them together, by force if necessary. No one is allowed to go his own way just because he/she wishes to. They are part of a collective, like it or not.

When line 5 of hexagram 8 changes, or transforms, it turns, as noted above, to number two. The type of holding together in 8 accords with devotion and receptiveness. The ruler is receptive to the wishes of each individual whether they wish to join or not. After this, the group is formed, then it jells into a form of trust and devotion, which is not given to those, at least not readily, who join late.

I can understand where Deb is coming from with the breakdown in line 5, because some do not choose to be part of the group, therefore the group is not as large as it might be in hexagram 7. If too many choose not to join then the group becomes weaker.

Gene
 

malka

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Well, I'm still here trying to make the connections between this wonderful intellectual stuff and the real world. Thanks for your patience while I struggle with the abstract-concrete dilemma.

I happened to receive 8 Unchanging today to a question about the effects of making a certain choice in a relationship. Trying to make sense of this answer for my particular question ... it at least sounds as though my choice would create no harm to the relationship.

I am intrigued by Chris' view of 8 as an integration of 20 Contemplation and 42 Pushing Up. Also, I notice that W/B says Holding Together means to Unite. Interesting, as these seem like totally different concepts to me.

Does Holding Together mean "staying together as is?" or "coming together after having been apart?"

How does the meaning change when in Unchanging form? My R.L. Wing gives an interpretation for unchanging readings but I rarely find these useful.

Your thoughts?
 

chrislofting

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Hi Malka,

you wrote:
>
> I am intrigued by Chris' view of 8 as an integration of 20
> Contemplation and 42 Pushing Up. Also, I notice that W/B
> says Holding Together means to Unite. Interesting, as these
> seem like totally different concepts to me.
>

How?

20 deals with admiration, admiring someone such that they invigorate you to to something. (the dark side is to be made an example of (punishment) rather than to be an example (to shine passively and so attract)). the unity is to a particular, a person and as such differentiates.

the trigram relationship is of a source of being influencial (wind in top position) in a context of devotion (earth in bottom) - that trigram relationship expressed in the hexagram as a whole.

As for 42, 42 deals with augmentation (wilhelm calls it Increase), it is *46* that is 'pushing up'.

so we have:

08 Holding Together (Union)
Alliencing, Uniting, Belonging

In a context of devotion(earth base) we utilise control (water top)

"PI : order things and put them in classes, compare and select; find what you belong with; compare, sort, examine correspondances; select and harmonize; unite. The ideogram: person who stops walking, looking around to examine and compare."ERANOS p160

20 Contemplation (View)
Admiring, Setting an Example

In a context of devotion we utilise influence.

"KUAN : contemplate, observe from a distance; look at carefully, gaze at; also: a monestery, an observatory; scry, divine through liquid in a cup. The ideogram: see and waterbird, observe through air and water"ERANOS p268

The ONLY difference here is the TOP line. yin integrates, yang differentiates. 08 integrates, 20 differentiates.

Then comes:

42 Increase
Augmenting, Ascending

In a context of enlightenment one becomes influencial

"YI : increase, advance, promote, benefit, strengthen; pour in more; full, superabundant; restorative. The ideogram: water and a vessel, pouring in more".ERANOS p462

W/B comments "A sacrifice of the higher element that produces an increase of the lower is called an out-and-out increase: it indicates the spirit that alone has power to help the world"

My associations come from the methodology of deriving the hexagrams based on patterns of line changes and meanings such that to derive the core elements you (a) change the top line. This gives you the OTHER hexagram of the PAIR that have emerged from the previous level of recursion, the pentagram - in the case of 08/20 the pentagram is (bottom to top) 00001 (b) change the bottom line of the resulting hexagram, so 08 gives 20 that gives 42, this gives you the variation on the theme, same lines other than the bottom one. Thus to understand the genesis of 08 you look at its 'partner' (20) as well a the variation of that partner (here it is 42). This set of three actually forms a quartet - the other hexagram is 03 where 03 influences the core sense of 42 and 20 (and is the variation of 08, yang base rather than yin base, all else is the same).

In the pairs page of my ICPlus, for hexagram 08 I have an entry for the variation of:

"In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 08 complements hexagram 03.

The theme here is overall on a beginning that reflects (a) in the individual and (b) on the group. As 03 reflects the personal struggles of making the initial breakthrough, the first moments of birth, so 08 reflects the initial attraction to a group context, a need to 'belong' to something/someone." - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x010000.html

For 03 we have:

03 Difficulty at the Beginning; Sprouting

In a context of enlightenment, a new beginning, we utilise control.

"CHUN : begin or cause to grow; assemble, accumulate, bring under control; hoard possessions; establish a military camp; difficult, arduous. The ideogram: sprout piercing hard soil"ERANOS p114


Thus the core elements of 08 are in (a) a source of admiration (a charismatic leader etc) and (b) a focus of the group on 'transcending' - augmentation, to pour in more, add to. The variation is reflected in 03 - the sense of 'sprouting'.

Thus the 'rule' for analysis of origins is to (a) change the top line to derive the other half of the pair. (b) change the bottom line of that other half to derive the 'complement' - the yang base of a yin, the yin base of a yang and so the variations on a theme where all lines are the same other than the base line.

We are talking origins such that we focus on that which is NOT 8 but from which 8 has developed and that is reflected in the 20/42 pairings. 03 is a variation of 08 and as such is also 08 in the context of origins and so not included in the analysis.

Shift focus and we have:

42 is 03 + 08
20 is 08 + 03

08 is 20 + 42
03 is 42 + 20

The differences are in the orderings where 03 is blended with 42 in a pentagram whereas 20 is blended with 08 in a pentagram such that there are subtle differences in expressions of meaning.

Wilhelm had no idea about all of this, all of it being sourced in, and so derived from an understanding of, recursion and so pairs, quartets, octets etc ;-)

If you want to go 'deeper' in the analysis, the octet that the above quartet is a member of is is made up by adding the quartet (14, 32, 34, 50)

Chris.
 

cal val

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Chris...

How interesting. I've always "felt" a connection of sorts between 8, 20 and 42...like they hold hands. And only through experience.

Val
 

gene

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There is a certain commonality between "Increase" and "Holding together." Holding together is done by the power of a personality that brings a group together and unites them. The focus here is on the jelling of the group. It is almost like a centrifugal force that brings everything into its center. The upper trigram is the middle son and the lower is the common man. So the middle son unites the common man and forms a group. In 42 the focus is more on the increase than the jelling. In 42 the power of the eldest son penetrates. As such, in one sense it can add to a group already formed, although that is not normally what is taken into consideration in the interpretation of the hexagram, but it could be. In 8 the ruler (line 5) brings together those who belong together by the power of his personality. In forty two he is recognized for his kindness. A partial list of other hexagrams that have slightly connected meanings would be:

46 - Pushing upward
07 - The Army
13 - Fellowship
14 - Great Possessions
16 - Enthusiasm
45 - Amassing

And so on and so forth.

Gene
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

you wrote:
>
> Chris...
>
> How interesting. I've always "felt" a connection of sorts
> between 8, 20 and 42...like they hold hands. And only
> through experience.
>

:) the methodology of using recursion to derive the hexagrams of the I Ching guarantees these sorts of relationships in that the whole is encoded in all parts - also gets into concepts of topology where you cannot cut the whole, only distort it, exaggerate parts - rubber-sheet geometry. Relativity etc.

The principles applied to the binary sequence demonstrated in the 'variations on a theme' etc and so the quartets etc can be applied to any sequence of hexagrams derived recursively. The ROOT sequence of the I Ching is that derived from the distinction of yin/yang - the binary sequence (Fu Xi related). If you then take the root binary sequence of 64 hexagrams and rotate each of those hexagrams you get will get another sequence - the sequence of changing lines (all 64 possible expressions) up through the hexagrams of 01 and 02 (depending on which end of the sequence you start to read from).

Note here the relationship of WHOLE to PARTS, GENERAL to PARTICULAR, through the ROTATION of hexagrams. This rotation is reflected in our brains where the 'right brain' is A AND B, WHOLE, integrated, and the 'left brain' is the ROTATION of A AND B into the form of A XOR B (Exclusive OR) and focused on PARTS, on differentiating.

From understanding this pattern you can then create DERIVED binary sequences by (a) deriving the changing line sequence for a particular hexagram and then (b) rotating all of those hexagrams to give a sequence from a particular hexagram to its opposite[not necessarily the same hexagram - shows the entanglement in all of this!]. (see the tables in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icmatrix.html)

These derived sequences serve as relational mappers. By this I mean that, in the root binary sequence, the one derived from recursion of yin/yang, once we have created it, we can fold it back again to the root dichotomy of yin/yang but now refined and represented as the hexagrams of 01/02 rather than just two lines one yin, one yang. Thus the prime distinction in the root binary sequence is this relationship of 01 and 02 as 'opposites', as integrating vs differentiating.

Thus, move back down to the sequence of 64 hexagrams and the relationships in that sequence reflect this core 01/02 relationship (and so at the general level, across the whole sequence, 23 is to 43 as 02 is to 01 etc etc. Zoom-in to the particular level, the pairs of adjoining hexagrams in the sequence, and, working for example from the 02 end (02, 23, 08, 20...) 02 is to 23 as 02 is to 01 where in the pair 02 is integrating, 23 is more differentiating, 08 is integrating, 20 differentiating and so on along the pairs that make-up the sequence)

In this 'natural' binary sequence I can manipulate the lines of hexagrams to derive relationships such as that of 03, 08, 20, 42 etc etc.

If I then move to a DERIVED sequence of, for example, 23/43 then the relationships in the hexagram orderings of that sequence reflect the QUALITIES of 23/43 - pruning/seeding. Thus the sequence starts off as 23, 02, 20, 08 etc etc this order is in pairs such that 23 is to 20 as 23 is to 43, 20 is to 08 as 23 is to 43 and so on (IOW 23 is pruning, 02 more seeding, 20 is more pruning, 08 more seeding etc).

With these DERIVED sequences we can no longer use line patterns in hexagrams to derive relationships in that we have shifted to qualitative, FELT, differences/sameness. BUT we CAN use position labels. IOW the hexagram is distinct from its position in the sequence. The sequence as such is an ordering of places, a template, into which different perspectives will slot-in hexagrams to different positions. The relationships of the POSITIONS hold true, they are constants, such that I can still create quartets, octets etc but now more qualitative and so free of distinct line pattern relationships.

This is shown, for example, in the traditional sequence where it starts 01, 02, 03, 04 - there are patterns here in rotations etc but no obvious, consistant, line relationships - the meanings of the pairs can be interpreted as getting into qualitative mappings that reflect the qualitatative differences between the root pair of 01/64 - the poles of the sequence.

All pairs in the sequence can be interpreted to reflect the 01/64 relationships - differences of individual/pure vs group/mixed perspectives (and so 01 is to 02 as 01 is to 64, 03 is to 04 and 01 is to 64 etc etc and so at the general level 01,02 PAIR reflects 'purity' and 63,64 pair reflect mixing. Zoom-in to the particular level and in the PAIR of 01,02 01 is more 'pure', individual, precise focus, 02 is more 'mixed', group, approximate focus. For 03,04 03 is more individual, 04 more group etc all the way to 63 is more 'pure', 64 more 'mixed')

I can derive quartets from this as well and such concepts as variations on a theme (first 32 hexagrams overlay the last 32 such that 01 maps to 33, 02 to 34 and so on to 31 to 63, 32 to 64) etc (see the octets of the traditional sequence derived in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/cracked.html simply based on cutting the sequence into 8 octets)

There is a LOT of work to be done in fleshing out these sorts of patterns. Some may appear 'meaningless', some appear 'meaningful' but are dead-ends, some will be redundant, and other give rich insights into how we as a species derive meaning. My websites are more desktops covered with research papers! Some good, some 'suspect' ;-)

The 10th century BC I Ching, as in that presented by W/B or Eranos etc etc, is the tip of the iceberg ;-) add-in the 3000+ years of investigations into neurology, psychology etc (all encapsulated into IDM) and out pops the 21st century AD I Ching.

The binary sequence is the 'core' sequence and so reflects all of the 'rules' re interpretations. From that ONE comes MANY ;-) (not forgetting the five-phase patterns as well!)

Chris.
 
Y

yellowblue

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Chris,

58 doesn't fit in here, does it??

Exchange, reflection.... goes with 31, but 31 is different association than that of 8, etc.

But it all interconnects... 8, 20, 31, 58....

hmmmm

Deb
 

chrislofting

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Hi Deb,

you wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> 58 doesn't fit in here, does it??

Not really. Not in the 03,08,20,42 quartet. In the *context* of variations on a theme and the uncovering of the core elements, the mud, of any hexagram, 58 is a part of the 10, 06, 47, 58 quartet.

the pairings are:

58 has its roots expressed in the generic qualities of 10 + 06:

"A combination of compromising (06) and use conduct (10) is reflected in the general properties of hexagram 58 with its focus on interaction cooperatively with others and so a need for self-reflection, both literally and metaphorically." - see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x011011.html 58 reflects 'pure' cooperative exchange, realm of METAL.

and so:

58 = 10 + 06 (the immediate pairing is with 10, the variation of 10 is 06)
47 = 06 + 10 (the immediate pairing is with 06, the variation of 06 is 10)

10 = 58 + 47
06 = 47 + 58


regarding your relation of 58 to 31, the common ground of, the link of, 31 to 58 is in the TOP trigram of lake, and so the top THREE lines. The quartets focus on SINGLE line differences in that they reflect an immediate relationship, 31 and 58 share the sense of intense reflection etc but differ in contexts and the sense is general.

To derive the immediate, local, tightest relationships of 58 we play with single lines. By that I mean that in the binary sequence, 58 (110110) pairs with 10 (110111) and both come out of a pentagram of 11011 (read as bottom line to top). 58 is the integrating element that comes out (adding a yin line to the top of the pentagram to give a hexagram), 10 is the differentiating element that comes out (new top line is yang).

The generic qualities of 58 and 10 are entangled in, expressed by, the pentragram, and as a *whole* the pentagram is integrated not differentiated, and the pentagram as such is not as precise as the hexagrams - as such we see the WHOLE:pARTS relationship that is built-in to the methodology of recursion in general.

To acquire the sense of 'origin', the mud from which 58 and 10 have emerged, we have to work off single line differences and IMPLICIT meanings where we trace the roots of 58 into the GENERIC qualities, and so under-exaggerate, muddy, the usual qualities of 10 and 06 (and we can add-in 47 as well if we want but since it is 'part of' 58, its variation, so it is not as strong in our reference to the 'mud' as 10 and 06.)

Thus, if we focus on 58 it is the 'integrating' element exaggerated out of the pentagram. To get the 'feel' for the WHOLE that is the origin we have to look to 10 for details, to derive the 'other part', that which is left behind in the pentagram when we pull out 58 - what is left is this 'mud' that will become 10 but isnt yet 10 and so we ALSO look for 10s variation to aid in clarification - that variation is in changing the bottom line of the hexagram and so gives the 'yin' roots, the variation on the theme, besides 10s natural 'yang' root, this will give us hexagram 06. That 'mix' serves to identify the mud from which comes 58. Once 58 is 'born' so its uniqueness comes out, its specialisation, in its top-line focus on integrating.

You can see how we need to work in PAIRS to bring out meanings in full.

Note how we are going for details here and so need to focus on lines rather than trigrams etc. We can create the sequence of hexagrams by doubling the trigram sequence, hyperbolic development where we use ALL of the trigrams as aids in fleshing out details in EACH trigram and so from one trigram comes an octet of hexagrams, we jump from 8 to 64. BUT the core development path is still 'line by line' such that we can then 'work backwards' to fill in the tetragram and pentragram levels of the derivation.

The use of recursion means we can analyse by line, by digram, by trigram, by tetragram, by pentagram, by hexagram - they can all add-in their 2c worth ;-) (move to changing lines and we move to analysis of dodecagrams but also from 7 to 12 line groupings as well!)

Hyperbolic development (1 to 8 to 64 to 4096 to 16+ million) reflects what we get in nature, more than we immediately need and so room to manoeuvre and go back to flesh-out finer points. Thus our brains are claimed to be 'under used' but reflect more the concept of hyperbolic development where you dont run out of space too quickly! Exponential development is line-by-line (powers of 2, 2^N) - hyperbolic development is quicker where the WHOLE of the current is used for the next (N^2 rather than 2^N) ;-) - It is like a car engine. The engine is designed to always work at 'full revolutions'. We then add gears to transform the power in the revolutions to work through torque, like twisting a rubber band and letting it unravel itself etc.
As such we 'gear down'.

This is also reflected in the brain where the areas of neurons in spinal columns etc 'oscillate' at a speed of 40 to 80 Hz. This is called the 'gamma' wave and relates to our generic 'system clock' (as we have in computers). as you move into the brain so we have differences in speeds SLOWER than the gamma, from 40 to 20 to 10 to 5 to 2 to 1 - frontal lobes etc when asleep will run at 1+ Hz. Our waking states are between 12 to 20+ (beta) - close your eyes and you shift to alpha, drift off/doze borderline areas and you go to Theta. Deep sleep is Delta.

This focus on gearing-down max revolutions to give 'torque' and so 'grunt' is reflected in the I Ching where the 4096 dodecagrams are 'geared down' to hexagrams with moving lines etc ;-) (and so general consciousness is 40-80Hz and we 'gear down' to give us our individual consciousness ;-) - genetics, drugs, context, then act to try and 'change gears', push our buttons ;-))

Chris.
 

malka

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Hey, could a couple of you just give me your quick hit of this reading? I mentioned above about receiving 8 unchanging as an answer to a question about the effect of choice on a relationship. Then, after going ahead and making that choice, I asked a question about making a similar but new choice in that same relationship. I received 19 with lines 1, 2 and 5 changing to 8!

W/B reads positive about 19 to me, and the lines all look good to me also. But I recall LiSe once writing that 19 can also be a funeral. Ouch. Can't find the thread, don't recall the context or what where the changing lines. What do you all say about this, and the second 8 for essentially the same situation?

Chris, thank you for clarifying something for me. I realize, I have been reading "holding together" as STAYING together. Semantics. Now I am looking at 8 as the verb, "to hold" which to me means coming together.

Blessings,
Malka
 

pedro

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The thread is something like "19 is it about death", but it isnt! That comment was based on the false assumption that "at the 8th month there will be misfortune"

8 for me is keeping together, over rough times, helping each other out, mutual help, a sense of togetherness, cooperation
In the context of a relationship, it doesnt sugest actions, iniciatives or advances, but merely endurance; keeping together plain and simply

Times will come when action is appropriate
 

malka

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Pedro, thank you for the thoughts. So, you're thinking is that I'm being told NOT to take this action? My question, after all, was about the outcome if I go ahead. That's where the 19>8 came from. Now I'm thinking I'll ask the opposite question to see what the outcome is for NOT taking the action. Thank you.
 

pedro

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As I said 8 doesnt issue a go forward in my opinion. 19 may have more of that connotation, yet the "approach" is just one of the meanings. Making oneself greater is a better one.

In any case I sense that you are too eager to do something, and that may require some caution. In doubt its better not to do anything. And 8 as an overall influence seems to just advise enduring through troublesome times together. No need to act, just to hold on.

At the 8th month something will change...
 

malka

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Okay Pedro, the point about my eagerness is well taken. Problem is, I asked about the outcome if I don't take the action and received 46.1.2 to 36. Ouch.

Sorry eveyone, I didn't mean to mess up this lovely 8 thread. I though my first question was an easy one. Oh well.

Malka
 

pedro

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Hum... thats the problem with the Yi, at some point you've been given both answers, and which is the right one?
I guess only you can answer that, but 46.1.2 doesnt show a strong motivation for action IMO. First line shows theres receptivity above but this is still the initial condition for ascension, and line 2 shows that even a modest offering may bare its fruits when it is sincere. And the fact it changes to 36 can reflect what you need to do instead of what the outcomne will be. Again, only you can decide
Im just speaking from personal experience, that when one doesnt see the path ahead clearly, then maybe there are still pieces of the puzzle we're missing, and caution may be advisable. Then again when we dont do a thing we may let the opportunity pass away...
I leave you with the advice that has proven more helpful to me recently: after a while the Yi cannot show any more, we need to look inside for the answers. Whenever I do this, really calming my mind and humbly asking for guidance, something happens that makes me see the whole more clearly.
I guess youre past the point when the Yi can show you black and white what you should do. I think you will obtain better results by self search.
Hope this is of some (minor) help, but please feel free to aks anymore you like. Dont take my comments as sage, though, Im as lost as yourself, and this is only my limited perspective.
 

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