Clarity,
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dobro said:Now, which Yi image corresponds to reverb, I wonder?
dobro said:Whoa! 15.6! Off with their heads!
dobro said:Frank, it's only the way you describe if that's the way your life is set up. But until you figure out that what going on *inside* you is more important than what's going on around you, 15.6 can just as easily be other people's heads. That's the beauty of the Yi - it can apply to *any* level of *any* situation you point it at.
rosada said:I am assuming that the order the hexagrams have been arranged in is meaningful. That is, that there is a reason 10. Treading leads to 11. Peace and then Stagnation, Fellowship, Possession, Modesty and then to Enthusiasm and so forth. .
frank_r said:Yes, I agree, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong only that I have a different one.
In the text of Wilhelm there is also the part: To chastise one's own city and one's country.
He's speaking to look first to own's one ego, and having the courage to marshal one's armies against oneself.
For me modesty of the wise one is more about eliminating negetivity and helping others than chopping there heads off. That will only come back to yourself in the long run, for me modesty has nothing to do with punishing others for your own mistakes.
martin said:Yes, the feel that I get from hexagram 15 has little to do with 'modest' or 'humble' behavior towards others.
I think that typical 15-persons are not concerned with social hierarchies and appropriate behavior in such hierarchies. Or with glamour or lack of glamour. Hollywood is a non-issue for them.
They focus on what is real and what their are doing. And if they are convinced that they have 'reality' on their side they may very well behave 'immodest'.
dobro said:Okay, but what if the heads in question are something like the ones Bruce is describing when he says: "Line 6 prohibits the use of excuses, such as false modesty or pride."
lightofreason said:When we focus on 15s spectrum, the infrastructure, the 'mud' or skeletal form (27-ness) that is filled out to become 15 is described by analogy to the generic, vague, characteristics of 22 - and so the sense of covering up, facading, hiding the inside by drawing attention to the outside as so the look of 'modesty'.
frank_r said:Yes, what would be the best behaviour with false modesty or pride. That's a good one.
Maybe It's tempting to chop of there heads, and in a sense I think figuratively speaking that's the best way. Yesterday I heard a saying, that there will more change with the ink from a pen than with the blood of a martyr. And in that sense I'm agreeing.
martin said:Well, that is the question. Is there really facading or hiding in hexagram 15? Does 15 wear a mask, so to speak?
I seems to me that 15 behaves how it is and is how it behaves. No difference between the inside and the outside. What you see is what you get.
15-types (or people in a state of mind that corresponds to hex 15) are honest and realistic about themselves and this may sometimes give the impression of 'modesty' but it has nothing to do with modesty, I think.
martin said:Well, this is what your algebra tells you and I can follow the logic, it seems internally consistent. But I'm not sure if the resulting portrait of hexagram 15 is accurate.
hilary said:It's real. No masks - not for other people, not even for oneself. (The I Ching Chris ends up with is not always the same as the 10th century BC version...)
rosada said:Dear Chris,
As I understand you, it appears you are saying you have discovered something in the I Ching that gives you a great deal of satisfaction. So much so that you would like others to share your viewpoint that they may also share your positive experience. It also appears that you have not been as successful as you would like to be in this sharing. I wonder if you have ever asked the I Ching, "How might I more effectivly share my discoveries?" I would be interest in knowing the results.
R.
martin said:What do others here think of the 'modesty' of hexagram 15?
Is it a cover up, a mask? Is it pretended? Or is it 'real'?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).