Hexagram #4

[crystal_blue]

Hi again.
-

Okay, so I was considering my relationship with the I-Ching, specifically, what I could get out of it. I drew a Hexagram to try and clarify things - turns out it was Hexagram #4, ('Enveloping'; 'Youthful Folly'). From what I gather, this is somewhat of a mixed-blessing with regards to ventures - on the one hand, 'folly' denotes mistakes; on the other hand, mistakes are a part of youth, whereby we learn. As for 'enveloping'...I'm not sure, but combined with the aforementioned it seems to imply that by engaging fully with something (and allowing it to engage oneself), mistakes are inevitable but beneficial.

Basically, just wondering what others think about this.
-

 

[bruce_g]

I think you've done a nice job of interpreting its meanings.

There's also the relationship dynamic between teacher and student, expressed in Meng, which gets especially interesting when you're both.

 

[Tohpol]

Okay, so I was considering my relationship with the I-Ching, specifically, what I could get out of it. I drew a Hexagram to try and clarify things - turns out it was Hexagram #4, ('Enveloping'; 'Youthful Folly').

Hi crystal blue,

A perfect answer really. I guess IC is saying just that: be willing to learn and grow. To explore the reasons why you want to embark on this relationship.

Imagine an infinitely wise sage with knowledge of all of human endeavour and s/he grants you a meeting to discuss the approach. You say:

"So then IC, me 'ole mate, what can I get out of this then? What's in it for me eh?"
Getting our reasons straight for doing this is important i think.

When I started I was waaaay too flippent and grasping for answers. (still am sometimes depending on my desperation level) Nevertheless, The IC endured it and over the years patiently gave me the answers which I usually ignored if they didn't fit into my scheme at the time. As I began to open up to truly learn I eventually I found myself back at its door and sheepishly going deeper into what it had to teach me. So, I guess real humility is required. That doesn't happen until one has learned the hard way. IC is waiting to pick up where you've left off.

This from Wilhelm acts like a kind of primer for approaching the IC:

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.

In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it,
provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward
him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his
lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and
this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which
should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason
why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only
thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way.

A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite
like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key
for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or
unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He
does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and
refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt.

Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are
mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram
counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.

topal

 

[crystal_blue]

I think you've done a nice job of interpreting its meanings.

Thank you.
-

There's also the relationship dynamic between teacher and student, expressed in Meng, which gets especially interesting when you're both.

Intriguing...I did read somewhere about the I-Ching being a teacher, and thus one should approach it as a (humble) student. I suppose it applies to most things in life.

A perfect answer really. I guess IC is saying just that: be willing to learn and grow. To explore the reasons why you want to embark on this relationship.

Imagine an infinitely wise sage with knowledge of all of human endeavour and s/he grants you a meeting to discuss the approach.

I see - so it's basically asserting the teacher/student approach. Interesting that you take it a step further, interpreting not only an exploration of what the I-Ching can teach, but an also an explanation of why I want to be a student.

You say:

"So then IC, me 'ole mate, what can I get out of this then? What's in it for me eh?"

It's uncanny!
-

Getting our reasons straight for doing this is important i think.

When I started I was waaaay too flippent and grasping for answers. (still am sometimes depending on my desperation level) Nevertheless, The IC endured it and over the years patiently gave me the answers which I usually ignored if they didn't fit into my scheme at the time. As I began to open up to truly learn I eventually I found myself back at its door and sheepishly going deeper into what it had to teach me. So, I guess real humility is required. That doesn't happen until one has learned the hard way. IC is waiting to pick up where you've left off.

'Hard way'; mistakes; eep. Thanks for sharing your experience, though.

This from Wilhelm acts like a kind of primer for approaching the IC:

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.

In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it,
provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward
him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his
lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and
this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which
should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason
why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only
thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way.

A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite
like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key
for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or
unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He
does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and
refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt.

Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are
mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram
counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.

Seems to say I shouldn't ask too much, or too foolishly - I'll try to bear that in mind.

 

[Sparhawk]

with the I-Ching, specifically, what I could get out of it. I drew a Hexagram to try and clarify things - turns out it was Hexagram #4, ('Enveloping'; 'Youthful Folly').

So, you mean that, wearing a smug smirk in your face--confess, now... --, you asked what you did and the Yi replied with H4? (no moving lines?) I rest my case about the Yi having an amazing sense of humor!!


L

 

[crystal_blue]

So, you mean that, wearing a smug smirk in your face--confess, now... --, you asked what you did and the Yi replied with H4? (no moving lines?) I rest my case about the Yi having an amazing sense of humor!!

I wear smug smirks on my face, not in it.

 

[Sparhawk]

I wear smug smirks on my face, not in them.

It figures... I stand corrected. On the other hand, I would take a British lass correction to my English anytime. (Psst, these crazy Americans know nothing about English; can't learn an iota from them )

L

 

[crystal_blue]

It figures... I stand corrected. On the other hand, I would take a British lass correction to my English anytime.

That's nice. I probably should point out that I myself am a British lad, though.
-

 

[Sparhawk]

I wear smug smirks on my face, not in them.

them..., ahem, a plural for "a face"? Are we counting the mirror image?

Most likely I'm wrong again... This English 101 is taxing my one and only neuron...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

That's nice. I probably should point out that I myself am a British lad, though.
-

Sigh... That's my luck...

L

 

[crystal_blue]

them..., ahem, a plural for "a face"? Are we counting the mirror image?

Most likely I'm wrong again... This English 101 is taxing my one and only neuron...

No, you were right that time. I'm very tired.
-

 

[Sparhawk]

(Psst, these crazy Americans know nothing about English; can't learn an iota from them )

Ahem, "crazy" as in "charmingly crazy", of course... For the humor challenged... After all, I live in Jersey (as in New Jersey, for the lads and lasses across the pond)

L

 

[beithe]

What topal said...

When I started I was waaaay too flippent and grasping for answers. (still am sometimes depending on my desperation level) Nevertheless, The IC endured it and over the years patiently gave me the answers which I usually ignored if they didn't fit into my scheme at the time. As I began to open up to truly learn I eventually I found myself back at its door and sheepishly going deeper into what it had to teach me. So, I guess real humility is required. That doesn't happen until one has learned the hard way. IC is waiting to pick up where you've left off.

This from Wilhelm acts like a kind of primer for approaching the IC:

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.

And we are definitely a "ship of fools". We sink and swim and live and learn and the Yi is a patient teacher if we persevere in taking the path laid out instead of asking, receiving and saying "oh well...I think I will do my way".

of course some here are more foolish than most.

 

[bruce_g]

Yi is a patient teacher if we persevere in taking the path laid out instead of asking, receiving and saying "oh well...I think I will do my way".

First be sure that the Yi is laying a path one way or another; and, if Yi does lay a path, be careful it isn't to test the power of your will. Some of Yi's biggest lessons diverge off the course of obedience, forcing you to blaze your own trail.

From Wilhelm's 54.3 commentary:
A weak, inexperienced man, struggling to rise, easily loses his own individuality when he slavishly imitates a strong personality of higher station. He's like a girl throwing herself away when she meets a strong man. Such a servile approach shouldn't be encouraged, because it's bad both for the youth and the teacher.

 

[Sparhawk]

of course some here are more foolish than most.

Hey, I DID register "youngfool.com" under my name after all... Which is a misnomer only on one count.

L

 

[beithe]

First be sure that the Yi is laying a path one way or another; and, if Yi does lay a path, be careful it isn't to test the power of your will. Some of Yi's biggest lessons diverge off the course of obedience, forcing you to blaze your own trail.

Oh fine! Now I need a new compass. See? just when you think you've got it down bruce_g tweaks your nose and chortles at you.

Hey, I DID register "youngfool.com" under my name after all... Which is a misnomer only on one count.

foolish is as foolish does...

 

[bruce_g]

"O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

 

[beithe]

Hast thou slain the Jabberwock?

"O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

Twas brillig and the slithy toves
did gyre and gimble in the wabe
all mimsy were the borogoves
and the mome raths outgrabed.

signed,
the frumious Bandersnatch