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Hexagram 42.1.5.6 - "you" and "he/she"

troubadour

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I have spent some time trying to work out how best to mend fence with someone I was once close to, someone who does have - or has had- mental health problems and tonight I asked Yi "what do I need to know about X now?" and was answered with Hexagram 42.1.5.6

Hexagram 42.1 "It furthers one to accomplish great deeds.
Supreme good fortune. No blame." seems to encourage me to take action - perhaps to contact X?

Hexagram 42.5 "If in truth YOU have a kind heart, ask not."
seems to say that my sincere efforts to be kind will be recognized. What I would like to clarify is whether the YOU referred to actually is ME or is it a reference to X as the subject of my cast?

Hexagram 42.6 worries me, because X has been inconsistent with me and other people in the past and seems to say someone has lashed out because of that. But I would like to clarify whether the HE (actually a SHE) refered to is actually X. Or is it me "HE (ie, SHE) brings increase to no one.
Indeed, someone even strikes him.
He does not keep his heart constantly steady.
Misfortune."

Any comments would be most gratefully received, thank you all.
 

ginnie

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In my opinion, Yi is referring mainly to you. Line 42.6 might be a warning to be more consistent with your idea of mending fences with X and that means not giving up on it, should it prove difficult to do. I have often seen the line pertain to those with good intentions but who don't follow through all the way. In this case, you are the one who is pouring forth out of your generosity and because mending the fences seems the best thing to do, although it might not be easy.
 

troubadour

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Thank you ginnie, I certainly understand the need to be consistent and hope I have been but it's always important to remain self-critical. I am just trying to work out why the Yi refers to "YOU" in line 5 and "HE" in line 6. Can you explain the Chinese words involved and the distinction between them? I should be most grateful if you could as I have no idea.
 

ginnie

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I have no familiarity at all with Chinese words, Troubadour!

I do know that the Chinese language does not have all the grammatical markers that we are used to. I understand there is no plural, for example. I understand the tense, or when the action takes or has taken place is not stated.

Similarly, in interpreting Yi, one needs flexibility of mind to turn the phrases around. He becomes she and she can become he, they, or your, depending on the question you asked. Anyway, Yi is often answering more than one question at one time, on different levels of understanding. It is the gist of the response you need to apply to your question, not the pronouns ...

This gets easier with practice!

The person in line 5 must be you, because you are the one thinking of doing the kindness.

The person referred to in line 6 must also be you, because it makes no sense for Yi to be referring to another person. I find that line 6 in the I Ching is often a warning of some kind or an overarching idea that affects the whole hexagram. In this case, it has to do with being wholehearted, in my humble opinion, and following through completely on one's good intentions, on one's generosity -- not abandoning one's good intentions when the going gets rough. The proper response to line 6 is to make a firm commitment and follow through completely with what one intends to do.

I do realize that the grammar is a little "off" -- but please don't dwell on that overmuch, as that will cause you to miss the meaning.
:)
 
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troubadour

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Got it now! Thank you very much. I can see that to get to the deep meaning one will have to look at the overall theme.

Thanks again.

Next question. I asked how X and I will relate in the future and got 14.1. Auspicious or not? "No relationship with what is harmful" does imply there are reasons to stay detached? But then Hexagram 50 is about mixing together, like ingredients in a cauldron?

I'd be grateful to hear from you again.
 

ginnie

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For your 14.1, I'll quote from the I Ching of Titania Hardie:

"There is still a need for caution and steadiness. It is important to be aware that there are still some difficulties to overcome, and some aspects of your present aims need a pragmatic approach. This is a time to be unselfish and to refuse to rise to the provocation of others. Don't lose focus."

BTW, is this X the same X as before?
:)
 

bradford

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That's a bad translation of 42.5. There is no word You in there, just imperatives,
and a first person plural.

Be true and kind-hearted. Do not question supreme good fortune.
Be certain that kindness is our character.
 

gene

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Troubadour

The relating hexagram in this case is twenty nine. Twenty nine does indicate that we can find ourselves in some kind of danger. However, that does not in and of itself mean you should not do it. The commentary on hexagram forty two says, "And even difficult and dangerous enterprises will succeed." There is always a certain amount of danger in relating too closely to someone with mental or emotional problems. One needs to learn to do this without becoming "entangled" as in hexagram twenty five, and be disinterested while at the same time being disinterested. It is best if you do not become too close, but still available as a friend.

The commentary on line one says, "Great good fortune is produced by selflessness," which I think speaks for itself. Line five follows this theme by saying, "Does not ask for merit and gratitude." In other words, we have to have pure motives for befriending someone, and we can neither cling, nor allow them to cling. If these conditions are not met, you may have the case of line six, and hexagram sixty two.

Gene
 

troubadour

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Ginnie thank you again, yes the algebra of personal relations remains constant, though with occasional wobbles. So I guess 42.6 was meant for me & that is why I quibbled!

Thank you too Bradford I have noticed how translations can vary considerably for the hexagrams and then exponentially even more wildly for interpretations. Your language skills much appreciated.

Thank you again Gene.

I went into this feeling smug as the finger of the Yi seemed to be pointing at my good intentions & X's inconsistency and now find the finger was pointing at me all along there too - which is chastening.
 

precision grace

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there is nothing worse for someone with "mental health problems" than people trying to "help" them out of the kindness of their heart.

When you look into it and if you can bear to be honest, you will realise that your wishes to reconnect are all about trying to make yourself feel better and have nothing to do with X.

With humble apologies to bristled egos :bows:
 

troubadour

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No offence taken precisiongrace - I was warned about you before I joined the forum.
 

ginnie

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Be true and kind-hearted. Do not question supreme good fortune.
Be certain that kindness is our character.

What an elegant translation!

Very few people are naturally kind all the time, in all circumstances, with kindness as their character. I guess that makes 42.5 something for most of us to aspire to as an ideal. I have often seen this line translated as "You will be remembered for your kindness," something like that. Reading between the lines, the meaning does seem to point to some difficult interpersonal dynamics in the future that can only be overcome by forgiveness and kindness: lots of positivity in action.
:)
 

troubadour

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I've been kind in the relationship which has been challenging. I have withdrawn when I felt it was not possible to continue being kind. I am in two minds about trying to re-engage - and 42.5 and 42.6 may respectively reflect each of those minds/attitudes of mine. For me though 42.6 still answers my query about how X is now.
 

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