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Hi! I'm developing an I Ching mobile app, and I need your help! (I asked for permission)

B

blackcat

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First of all, hello everyone!
I'm looking for a healthy discussion around mobile apps (most precisely I Ching mobile apps). I asked for permission because I have great respect for this community. I didn't want to start with the wrong foot. (Or look like one of those spam-bots)

Now, let me make a small introduction about what I am doing and why.
I started this project in June 2020 after two years unable to find a job, because my situation is a little more complicated and makes the task even more difficult. Like many people, I decided to stop wasting time with interviews and do something by myself. Hence, the beginning of this project.

Why another I Ching mobile app? When I started the design, I considered a few must-have points:
  • It must respect privacy. That means no ads, no personal data tracking, no analytics of any kind. What you do on your phone, stays in your phone.
  • It must have an intuitive, well-designed, uncluttered interface. Because beauty is a very subjective subject, so I wanted the interface to be practical.
  • It must be a tool and not an addiction.

This version has a user flow focused on usability. I created this app to be a companion app, not to substitute anything you are using right now, but to complement it. For example, I've been using it when I'm not at home. I can't use my coins for whatever reason, or I am in bed when that question pop-ups! But I still use my I Ching books to comprehend my readings.

Now I'd like to hear from you! What do you think about this, sounds good to you? Any questions?

Note: Some of you are probably wondering, the final release will have Legge's translation. I'd love to offer other alternatives but I don't have the resources right now (Nor the willing to get into copyright issues). I'm sorry about that.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your time!
 
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Gmulii

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Hi, we have site with calculators and stuff, so I can relate to the licensing problems.

I was thinking of doing something like "Open I Ching".
The idea was to use google translate and other sources to make our own translation of Wilhelms text from German to English, that would be licensed with something more open for use, so everyone is free to use, share etc in apps or text or wherever they need.
As his work is out of copyright now in Germany, yet Baynes translation is very much owned by an University and they payed a lot.


We gave up, even though legally should be fine, it seems with automatic translate Wilhelms text still ends up so similar to Baynes, that we may get into problems and with so many possible apps to do, no point in that.

But yea, using Legge is the wisest choice. He was there before Wilhelm, anyway...
 

Trojina

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How is it an improvement on simply opening Clarity and doing readings when out ? It's just as quick to get here by phone as an app would be plus we have access to the whole site, wikiwing and so on. What is the advantage of a special app with only Legge on ?

This is something I don't understand about I Ching apps. Clarity will always be better. What is the advantage of an app ?
 

Trojina

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That's a genuine question by the way, maybe there's something I'm missing as am not very tech savvy.
 

moss elk

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May I offer a suggestion for your app?

Can you make it so that the text file may be replaced with any edition someone chooses? That would make it a Reading app I suppose. ... which brings me back to ... text files are better than apps.
 
B

blackcat

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How is it an improvement on simply opening Clarity and doing readings when out ? It's just as quick to get here by phone as an app would be plus we have access to the whole site, wikiwing and so on. What is the advantage of a special app with only Legge on ?

This is something I don't understand about I Ching apps. Clarity will always be better. What is the advantage of an app ?
Hi! Good question. I've been using Clarity myself for a very long time, and I won't argue with you that it's indeed great. Maybe I was doing it wrong all this time, but to keep a log of those readings I had to save a bookmark and then export that reading to later write down in my notebook. I've lost count of how many readings I've lost in the process. As I said, probably because I was doing it wrong.

You see, most apps try to "simulate" real reading casts. For example, clicking 6 times to create the hexagram, or watch an animation with coins and all that. Some people like it and I respect that. I designed it to be more like a tool. I don't want to lose more readings until I can sit down and pass it to my notebook. The important thing here is, I don't want anyone to stop using what they are using right now. I'd like people to integrate it as a companion app. That's why I wanted to gather some feedback.

The point about the translation is interesting. I think this kind of apps shouldn't even include any translations at all, because most people already have a prefered source. If only I could convince people to buy a book! -Said the techy guy :)-.

But seriously, I've been struggling with this matter a lot. I designed this to fit what I think I Ching apps should be. Clean interface, easy to use, no translations (Please, buy books and support authors), just enough features to let you continue practising like always without technology intruding too much. Maybe for most people, what they are already using is enough. I won't try to convince anyone to stop using that for this because this is not the purpose of what I am doing.

Edit: I still use Clarity as my main I Ching online source. Edited because I think I didn't clarify it.
 
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B

blackcat

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May I offer a suggestion for your app?

Can you make it so that the text file may be replaced with any edition someone chooses? That would make it a Reading app I suppose. ... which brings me back to ... text files are better than apps.
Can you elaborate? Sounds interesting but I'm not sure I'm following.
 
B

blackcat

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Hi, we have site with calculators and stuff, so I can relate to the licensing problems.

I was thinking of doing something like "Open I Ching".
The idea was to use google translate and other sources to make our own translation of Wilhelms text from German to English, that would be licensed with something more open for use, so everyone is free to use, share etc in apps or text or wherever they need.
As his work is out of copyright now in Germany, yet Baynes translation is very much owned by an University and they payed a lot.


We gave up, even though legally should be fine, it seems with automatic translate Wilhelms text still ends up so similar to Baynes, that we may get into problems and with so many possible apps to do, no point in that.

But yea, using Legge is the wisest choice. He was there before Wilhelm, anyway...
Dealing with licenses it's painfull. This reminds me that Bradford (https://www.hermetica.info) did a really great job in that matter. I was considering using his work, but after he pased away I felt that not being able to ask him personaly wasn't the same. I'm planing to add a link to his site in my web tho.
 

moss elk

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Well, say you build a *framework* of

Chapter
Image
Judgement
lines....

Then a replacable file would flesh out the framework. (can you tell I'm not a programmer? My friends are, well not since Basic and my Adam computer.)
or even a redirectable link...

I suggest it because I use multiple authors, and only occasionally look at Legge.
(because just like with a work of art,
any given author could have too much of themself get in the way of the material.)
 
B

blackcat

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Well, say you build a *framework* of

Chapter
Image
Judgement
lines....

Then a replacable file would flesh out the framework. (can you tell I'm not a programmer? My friends are, well not since Basic and my Adam computer.)
or even a redirectable link...

I suggest it because I use multiple authors,
(because just like with a work of writing,
any given author could have too much of themself get in the way of the material.)
Interesting, you mean something like here in Clarity, that you can choose between Hilary's and Legge? But with multiple authors?
 

moss elk

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Interesting, you mean something like here in Clarity, that you can choose between Hilary's and Legge? But with multiple authors?
Oh, I never saw Hilary did that.

What my main point is:
apps often suck.
Needless complexity where a 'searchable text file works just fine.
(without the unneeded risk of giving a stranger any access permissions on my machine)

If you make something,
try to make it not suck,
by having a usefulness that is superior to a text file. (and the only way I can see such a thing is if had mutliple authors.)
That is what you are trying to offer an improvement on....

that's my two cents.
 
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B

blackcat

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What my main point is:
apps often suck.
Needless complexity where a text file works just fine.
I concur, 110%. That's why I'm not trying to solve the translation problem, because, you just confirmed what I've been considering for a very long time. It's a waste of time, people, like you, have their way, being simple files or a book, or multiple websites.
 

moss elk

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hmm....still thinking.

If it had a directable link, or loadable framework.... maybe that would absolve you of any copywrite issues, should any users take it upon themselves to load a file...

ok, I need to redirect some of this caffiene energy to cleaning my apartmnent.

Beat of luck!
 
B

blackcat

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If it had a directable link, or loadable framework.... maybe that would absolve you of any copywrite issues, should any users take it upon themselves to load a file...
It could be a way, yes. I need to give it some thought because <insert meme here> One does not simply parse a file and include it in the app. The reason that framework doesn't exist yet is because the level of complexity parsing those files. All users A) should use the same file format or B) The app should be able to interpret the files whatever the format user chose. Gigantic tasks either of them. But hey, It's an interesting problem to solve.
ok, I need to redirect some of this caffiene energy to cleaning my apartmnent.
And I need to sleep, Happy cleaning!

And thanks a lot for your input!
 

Viru10

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Some clean UI would be great. I like Clarity a lot but it's not super-optimized for mobile- particularly when it comes to selecting buttons/headers etc. Clarity is great for somebody on mouse&keyboard but I don't quite like the mobile experience, which to Trojina's question would be an advantage for an app. I'm not a UI/UX artist but am working in a company developing an iOS game and part of my current daily tasks are working on assets for our main menu UI.

I am almost exclusively a PC user but there are countries where the vast majority of people on the internet are using mobile- via apps and this can address that market.

I wonder about crowdsourcing line and unchanging hexagram experiences like we have on Clarity as well. Meaning if you cast line 1.5>14 you can see everyone else's submitted experiences for 1.5>14. Or everyone else's submitted experiences for 1uc. This of course requires enough active users to develop the info on the app. I'm realizing this adds an entire community element which may not be necessary.

Additionally, like I mentioned I'm working in games. I'm a 3D artist and have always wondered about making a little coin tossing animation, or just a fun, simple little animation for lines as you're casting. Just a tiny thing that can enhance user experience. The problem is it would need to be rendered in real-time in some type of 3d rendering solution on mobile- this probably isn't too complicated but I thought it was an interesting idea.
 

Gmulii

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That is what we did for our app back then... We had it search for .txt file in the same directory. Then it took the lines and numbers, for the hexagrams. For example, line starting with 01.1.0 would be Hexagram 1, changing line 1, line starting with 03.2.0 would be hexagram 3 changing line 2 etc.

The idea is everyone can make their own translation. Then when they right click a line they can read the info for that specific line, or they can click the hexagram and read the general info as well.

If you make it the same way, we can use the same .txt files. Our stuff is oriented to other systems, so translation wasn't the focus but I like that there is option for it. If we keep the same formating, people that made translation files for our app, can use it with yours and the other way around.

If you want to do it like that let me know. I can send you the manual for the app or something, so you know the formatting we currently use.
 

Trojina

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Hi! Good question. I've been using Clarity myself for a very long time, and I won't argue with you that it's indeed great. Maybe I was doing it wrong all this time, but to keep a log of those readings I had to save a bookmark and then export that reading to later write down in my notebook. I've lost count of how many readings I've lost in the process. As I said, probably because I was doing it wrong.


I store my readings in the Resonance Journal, software designed by Justin and Hilary as you likely know. There you can see several translations and commentaries, Hilary, Brad, Lise and make your own I think.

I can't see why a person would need to find a log of their readings when they are out and about plus I find my brain does a pretty good job of recalling any important ones for that time I'm out and about. So for me it's a question of not understanding why a person would need a log of readings with them, I've never found a need for that :???:

But you say you have to export readings....again nothing I've ever done. Maybe you do your readings with the online tool here to export them (?) but I've never used that to export anything...


You see, most apps try to "simulate" real reading casts. For example, clicking 6 times to create the hexagram, or watch an animation with coins and all that. Some people like it and I respect that. I designed it to be more like a tool. I don't want to lose more readings until I can sit down and pass it to my notebook. The important thing here is, I don't want anyone to stop using what they are using right now. I'd like people to integrate it as a companion app. That's why I wanted to gather some feedback.


I find apps that simulate 6 throws beyond tedious. If I ever use online casting I just the one click here but mostly I do readings physically with coins on a table. IMO being out and about and feeling one has to carry lots of readings with one is not a good way to live really. But then I may be out of touch with the whole app thing, I just use Clarity and never find I need to look up readings when I'm away from home. A problem with online casts and apps is they encourage people to ask endless questions about everything to the point where they can't make simple decisions by themselves and seem to lose the use of their brains to even do the work of thinking about a problem.

I think the feedback you need is not from the likes of me though but that's mine anyway :)
 
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blackcat

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I think the feedback you need is not from the likes of me though but that's mine anyway :)
On the contrary! Your insights are very very valuable. You don't understand why because it's not a product for you. Why people buy cars when I have my bicycle? It's as simple as that. But that doesn't mean your insights are less valuable. In fact, You stated two important points I'm trying to solve with my app.

1- Bad design (Beyond tedius) with bad user experience, or non-existant. Bloated interface, feature fatigue, needlessly complexity... And I could go on and on.
A problem with online casts and apps is they encourage people to ask endless questions about everything to the point where they can't make simple decisions by themselves and seem to lose the use of their brains to even do the work of thinking about a problem.
2- I called it addiction in my first post (Point 3: It must be a tool, not an addiction). You explained it better than me. In my opinion, that problem, is not only related to Online I Ching apps. The problem is with divination in general. I've seen people hooked to tarot lines, people expending endless hours throwing coins in their room casting hundred of questions. Long before mobile apps existed. But I also agree with you, there is an unhealthy behaviour caused by the easy access of digital tools that need to be addressed.

But you say you have to export readings....again nothing I've ever done. Maybe you do your readings with the online tool here to export them (?) but I've never used that to export anything...
I explained it very badly. For me the phone is convenient even I'd prefer throw coins or yarrows. I like to go out for a walk when I need to think and many other situations where the phone is more helpful. But then again, that's my personal experience. So, Exactly what you described, I've been using the online tool from here. My problem was related to using the browser on the phone, saving bookmarks, ... Overly complicated when I only needed something that let me cast a reading and keep it until I could take some notes. That could be the same day or months later. With that workflow I've lost many readings during the years.

My app is not comparable with The Resonance Journal, because The Resonance Journal is a full-fledged journal system with a lot of features and utility.

Thanks for taking your time and share your thoughts.
 
B

blackcat

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I wonder about crowdsourcing line and unchanging hexagram experiences like we have on Clarity as well. Meaning if you cast line 1.5>14 you can see everyone else's submitted experiences for 1.5>14. Or everyone else's submitted experiences for 1uc. This of course requires enough active users to develop the info on the app. I'm realizing this adds an entire community element which may not be necessary.
I think this idea is more suitable for Clarity than me, and it's quite interesting.

Additionally, like I mentioned I'm working in games. I'm a 3D artist and have always wondered about making a little coin tossing animation, or just a fun, simple little animation for lines as you're casting. Just a tiny thing that can enhance user experience. The problem is it would need to be rendered in real-time in some type of 3d rendering solution on mobile- this probably isn't too complicated but I thought it was an interesting idea.
Little details are what make the difference. Why didn't you make it? It's a nice side project.
 

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