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Hidden Lord of the Crooked Path - 38.2

my_key

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Another Karcherism !

38.2
Diverging. The Shadowlands.
Meeting the Hidden Lord of the Crooked Path.
This is not a mistake.

Most translations for 38.2 give a simple " Meeting a lord / master in a lane / alley"

38 is generally about seeing things differently to how you have in the past - so is that the hidden lord; the new knowledge / awareness? However I'm unable to see where he gets 'crooked' from and why the path should be described as crooked and also why the lord is 'of' the path and not just on it..

So I would appreciate any contributions people can make as to why the lord is 'hidden' and the path is described as 'crooked' in Karchers rendition.
 

my_key

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Hi Freedda
Thanks for your well considered response. Karcher has th same affect on me: deeper insights ranging through to misty murkiness. I do like pursuing his approach though and am looking a bit more at which of his translations veer off from the 'standard' and into his mythical waxing lyrical. I was hoping that someone would be able to give a mythical connection for the 'Hidden Lord' and the 'Crooked Path'.

I had read his commentary for 38.2 that you quoted and had made my sense of it that the line is the place of embracing a new thought / perspective, that has come out of the blue, and preparing an inner reorganisation to integrate this into the grand scheme of things without 'letting go of the way'. I was hoping as I said that someone would be able to expand in a mytical or poetic way on the important characters (capitalised) 'Hidden Lord' and 'Crooked Path'.
 

mandarin_23

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I once had this line 38.2.5|25 when asking for an incident: I was at a station, heading of for a seminary. The hosts came up to me and took me into their car to take me to the seminary place. However, I was just a simple guest. It was the case that they were indeed waiting for the honourable guest of the whole seminary. So I was there in the car with the famous Mrs. XY. I was really embarrassed. The Yi calmed me down: There was nothing wrong.
 

my_key

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I've been giving 'Hidden Lord' and 'Crooked Path' a bit more thought.

Here in 38 we are coming up against apparent opposition and discord to the way we were going. We have lost our horse at 38.1 and so have to navigate round the obstacles rather than jump over them hence the path is about to become crooked. The Hidden Lord? Well...... he's the creator or the essence of the challenge or obstacle that has been placed in front of us. I see a link now to the old zen saying 'The obstacle is the path' and so the Way by it's very nature has to be crooked: so of course this meeting at 38.2 is not a mistake it's kind of a natural thing for us to have come into contact with.

Horseless and travelling alone we have to face the rigours and conflict of the challenge, getting really really stuck in it at 38.3: getting to the root of it and seeing a way forward (over,under, through or around) at 38.4 / 38.5 and ending up still covered in the remnants of muck and battle weary but having weathered the worst of the storm at 38.6.

No wonder we are still limping as we trudge into 39!!

...or maybe it's nothing like that at all.
 
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my_key

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Why? First and foremost, I think it's very hard to really know what a line means - or even a hexgram, trigram, etc. - when we take it out of context, e.g. try to understanding it outside of a specific reading or query. But since that specific is absent here, and since I've already weighed in on this line, here's what I also come up against:
  • The line here is something like: meeting / (a) maseter / on-along-in / alley, side street, narrow lane / no blame, or nothing is wrong, And that's it, no dark anyone, no crooked anything.
  • Theres a lot implied by Karcher that we simply have no way of knowing: is this meeting in an aside place necessary, or advisable, or being forced upon us? And does this necessarily make either the Lord dark, or the road crooked? I just don't see it.

  • Karcher's words also seem to add some sense of cause-and-effect or blame, or something that I don't read into the line, and which seem like add-ons to me, e.g. the Lord (zhu) has become 'dark' because of ... or, the road is now crooked because .....
  • Your take on this implies a kind of journey or steps along a path, e.g. line 1 leads to line 2 leads to line 3 .... But in fact, in any given reading we may not have all these 'steps' - for example Mandarin's reading, 38.2.5 to 25, where we don't have lines 1, 3,4, 6 as part of the reading.
So, again, if you find some understanding here, that's great! Truly. But for me, it's an instance of Karcher making me work way too hard to understand the line's meaning.

Best, D.

Hi Freedda
I agree that things are, at times, difficult enough to get a meaning out of any line or hexagram and Karcher's mythical / poetical, even mystical, translations and commentaries are just adding more puzzles to the richness of the text. Is it too hard to grasp? For me it can be,too, yet I more often than not get some benefit from diving in and immersing myself.

Your offered translation is the same as what I made of 38.2 before swimming into the seas of Karcher-world. No 'Hidden Lord', no 'Crooked Path': hence my curiosity and my posting this thread. Surely someone has met the 'Hidden Lord of the Crooked Path' !!

I believe that I have gained an bit more of an understanding of Hex 38 through dabbling in these two Karcherisms and spreading out to the rest of the hexagram where we meet the Branded Man with no nose; the Orphan and the Fox; the Primal Father; the Heavenly Swine and the Chariot carrying Dead Souls. What a character list for the playing out of Hex 38 Diverging / The Shadowlands !! Maybe it helps to see things differently. What if the Lord has always been dark and the road always crooked not just made so for the purpose of of 38.2?

I do see each hexagram as a journey of steps, a process from bottom to top, a play in 6 acts when viewed on it's own. There is a sequence in the Yi in general (King Wen) commented on in the wings so why not scale it down to having a sequence in each hexagram. When we get a reading like Mandarin's then perhaps all we are being asked to do is to watch the themes of those two acts being played out in the context of the question asked or situation we find ourselves in and then gaining some insights from those acts. The ones that we don't have to watch are not appropriate in this particular case - we don't need to include these in our current revision for the drama exam.

Anyway, enough mulling over of ideas for now.
Take Care.
 

charly

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Another Karcherism !
38.2
Diverging. The Shadowlands.
Meeting the Hidden Lord of the Crooked Path.
This is not a mistake.
...
So I would appreciate any contributions people can make as to why the lord is 'hidden' and the path is described as 'crooked' in Karchers rendition.
Hi Michael and David:

I still didn't read all the thread. I promise to do it but meanwhile...

The chinese traditional received text for 38.2 says:

遇主于巷,无咎。
yu4 zhu3 yu2 xiang4 wu2 yu4
MEETING MASTER AT ALLEY NO WRONG
Master is ambiguous enough to mean lord, sage, patron,
but I've always believed that here applies to somebody
able to give GUIDANCE,
maybe keeping low profile,
unknown, at least for the public.​

Annotation:
遇 yu4: variant of 遘 gou4 to MEET, to come across, bump into unexpectedly, to come upon suddenly / relationships between men and women.

主 zhu3: owner / master / host / leader / individual or party concerned / God / Lord / main / to indicate or signify / trump card (in card games)

于 yu2 : in, at, on, from, to.

巷 xiang4: alley, lane, street, forked road, crossroads.

Sources: CJKV and MDBG online dictionaries.

Alley: passage in a house; open passage between buildings; walkway in a garden ... Applied by c. 1500 to "long narrow enclosure for playing at bowls, skittles, etc." Used in place names from c. 1500. "In U.S. applied to what in London is called a Mews" [OED], and in American English especially of a back-lane parallel to a main street (1729).
Source: Etymonline

xiang4 is the chinese character for translating «alley» in Chinatown, San Francisco, as can be seen here:


Alleys_and_Crooked_Paths.jpg 36_Spofford_Alley.png

Source:
Sun Yat-Sen in Hawaii: Activities and Supporters
by Yansheng Ma Lum, Raymond Mun Kong Lum

(to be continued)
All the best,

Charly
 
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charly

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More on Spofford Alley:
Narrow_Lane.jpg
Source: T. Salcedo «Walking San Francisco»
Available in Google Books, here:
Spofford Alley turned New Spanish Alley but remain being a NARROW LANE, maybe modernized.
Did Sun Yat-Sen turned LEGEND?

Ch.
 
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charly

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Even more on Spofford Alley:
Spofford_Alley_Tongs.jpg

Source: «Expiring Historic...» pages 128-129, available in Google Books here:

Maybe in Aleys some DISREPUTABLE ACTIVITIES were carried out, not neccessarily bad from the moral point of view.

Ch.
 
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my_key

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The chinese traditional received text for 38.2 says:

遇主于巷,无咎。
yu4 zhu3 yu2 xiang4 wu2 yu4
MEETING MASTER AT ALLEY NO WRONG
Master is ambiguous enough to mean lord, sage, patron,
but I've always believed that here applies to somebody
able to give GUIDANCE,
maybe keeping low profile,
unknown, at least for the public.​

Annotation:
遇 yu4: variant of 遘 gou4 to MEET, to come across, bump into unexpectedly, to come upon suddenly / relationships between men and women.

主 zhu3: owner / master / host / leader / individual or party concerned / God / Lord / main / to indicate or signify / trump card (in card games)

于 yu2 : in, at, on, from, to.

巷 xiang4: alley, lane, street, forked road, crossroads.

Sources: CJKV and MDBG online dictionaries.

Alley: passage in a house; open passage between buildings; walkway in a garden ... Applied by c. 1500 to "long narrow enclosure for playing at bowls, skittles, etc." Used in place names from c. 1500. "In U.S. applied to what in London is called a Mews" [OED], and in American English especially of a back-lane parallel to a main street (1729).
Source: Etymonline

xiang4 is the chinese character for translating «alley» in Chinatown, San Francisco, as can be seen here:

I've not been walking this thread path for a while. Looking here, though, at the dark and murkey maze of back alleyways that we may be walking down alone ( because we have lost our horse) we unexpectedly bump into something that we think is going to do us harm but instead gives us guidance on how to get out of, or find our way through, the maze of back streets.

Maybe the Hidden Lord of the Crooked Path is urging us to ' the one less travelled by'. I see him here more as if he was an internal guide in the maze of our mind,

The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Taking this path means we must first encounter some unsavoury experiences (past and present) and this creates a setback in the plans we had set (38.3). The setback further isolates us and throws us in with the tricksters (38.4), We learn how to deal with this internal turmoil. In for a penny in for a pound! Onwards and Upwards! (38.5) The road less travelled by looks really green and shiny after a spot of rain (38.6).
 

charly

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I've not been walking this thread path for a while. Looking here, though, at the dark and murkey maze of back alleyways that we may be walking down alone ( because we have lost our horse) we unexpectedly bump into something that we think is going to do us harm but instead gives us guidance on how to get out of, or find our way through, the maze of back streets.
...
Taking this path means we must first encounter some unsavoury experiences (past and present) and this creates a setback in the plans we had set (38.3). The setback further isolates us and throws us in with the tricksters (38.4), We learn how to deal with this internal turmoil. In for a penny in for a pound! Onwards and Upwards! (38.5) The road less travelled by looks really green and shiny after a spot of rain (38.6).
Hi Michael:

I never liked the word LORD here, it's a fair translation but it needs some adjective like HIDDEN to acquire sense. But why a gendered word? A person able to give GUIDANCE, a LEADER I believe fits better.

I agree with you that can be not only a person but also An EXPERIENCE, the experience of MEETING, establishing a bond between predestinated people, like between MARRIAGABLE RELATIVES.(1)

The appearance of all the hexagram looks STRANGE. It brings, I believe, strange connotations to all the lines. Not all the ALLEYS were narrow, forked, crooked. Not all were ground for clandestine or disreputable activities, but the word cames with all those senses. I believe that CROOKED have both, the descriptive sense applied to the street and the moral sense applied to the persons and their activities.

But maybe all that is but mere PREJUDICE, that's why the line ends stating «No wrong» in spite of appearances. Appearances deceive.

Time ago I found a connection between H.33's ALLEY (2) and Spoffor Alley in S.F. Chinatown, the history of Wuhan Hubei Uprising, 1911 revolution, Sun Yatsen ... Had you seen the former quotations? (3)

All the best,

Charly
_________________________
(1) which is implicit in 遇 yu4: variant of 遘 gou4, which lead us to H.44 GOU. But thats another story...
(2) I always wondered what meant the title «Alley Oop» of the old comics strips. Do you know it?
Alley_Oop_H44.jpg
(3) In wuhan 1911 there was still no coronavirus!

Ch.
 
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moss elk

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I don't think there are any moral implications in this line, especially no 'crooks' or 'crookedness'. If Karcher added them,
I think he did so in error.

I don't read Karcher on purpose.
(after speed reading through what he writes.) He adds too many detours and tangents from the path. He reminds me of my ever 'optimistic' friend who plays devils advocate for any position or argument saying, "well it could be...."
And I often say,
"Yes friend, but it's not."
 

charly

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I don't think there are any moral implications in this line, especially no 'crooks' or 'crookedness'. If Karcher added them,
I think he did so in error.

I don't read Karcher on purpose.
(after speed reading through what he writes.) He adds too many detours and tangents from the path. He reminds me of my ever 'optimistic' friend who plays devils advocate for any position or argument saying, "well it could be...."
And I often say,
"Yes friend, but it's not."
Hi Moss:

In the field of opinions everyone thinks as he wants. But to give arguments is more profitable.
I said that the word ALLEY, as its chinese equivalents, have connotations, like any other word, some o them disreputable.

All the best,

Charly
 

my_key

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I never liked the word LORD here, it's a fair translation but it needs some adjective like HIDDEN to acquire sense. But why a gendered word? A person able to give GUIDANCE, a LEADER I believe fits better.
I don't know how this would fit with the Chinese text, and it may have its own symbol not zhu3 but from what you say here I'd be drawn to the word 'Guardian' with it's early connections to warding. Maybe the gender is just a hang over from the times of the text - most important deities were male back in the day. 'Hidden' because as Wilhelm says this is an "unexpected meeting".

I agree with you that can be not only a person but also An EXPERIENCE, the experience of MEETING, establishing a bond between predestinated people, like between MARRIAGABLE RELATIVES.(1)
When you first meet a marriage partner it is not always love at first sight. However attitudes look to have changed by the time the crooked path has led to 38.6.

The appearance of all the hexagram looks STRANGE. It brings, I believe, strange connotations to all the lines. Not all the ALLEYS were narrow, forked, crooked. Not all were ground for clandestine or disreputable activities, but the word cames with all those senses. I believe that CROOKED have both, the descriptive sense applied to the street and the moral sense applied to the persons and their activities.

I had not seen it like that before, however we certainly come up against the villian within us ( branded man with no nose) and the trickster fox and the 'hungry souls and angry ghosts' in Line 4. Having met them on the lonely road we have to join with them to make peace with them in some way: to make peace with ourselves. This line reminds me a bit of a Dark Night of the Soul experience. This is the only way forward and as Huang notes this is a place to "fuse sincerity and truthfulness" and 'their minds can be communicated and filled".

But maybe all that is but mere PREJUDICE, that's why the line ends stating «No wrong» in spite of appearances. Appearances deceive.
Agree. 38.6 - they are "not an invader, but a suitor" or as Karcher puts it "Those you are confronting are definitely not outlaws.
Time ago I found a connection between H.33's ALLEY (2) and Spoffor Alley in S.F. Chinatown, the history of Wuhan Hubei Uprising, 1911 revolution, Sun Yatsen ... Had you seen the former quotations?

If you mean the one about Spofford Alley, then yes. The place/ source of the dark and shady goings on of the Chinese Underworld (The Shadow Lands). Tong ruled and with a bit of free masonry thrown in for good measure.

'Alley Oop' from my understanding is a French / English commingling. Allez - "go forward" ; "oop" the English word 'up' but supposed how it would be said with a French accent, The comic strip I have not seen before, however, the phrase reminds me of circus rings and the lion tamer prompting the animal to jump from one place to another or shouted when in the process of jumping through the hoops.

(3) In wuhan 1911 there was still no coronavirus!

Incubation periods can be a long time and conditions have to be right for the effects of viruses to show themselves.

Good Luck
 

charly

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I don't know how this would fit with the Chinese text, and it may have its own symbol not zhu3 but from what you say here I'd be drawn to the word 'Guardian' with it's early connections to warding. Maybe the gender is just a hang over from the times of the text - most important deities were male back in the day. 'Hidden' because as Wilhelm says this is an "unexpected meeting".
There are many forms to say LEADER, one of them 主謀, shu3mou2 leader, mastermind. [CJKV] A strategist.
The idea of GUIDANCE comes from the pictograph 主 that, far from being conneted with the character for KING, depicted a

Lamp_Leader.jpg

POTTERY LAMP WITH A BURNING FLAME,
A light in the shadows,​
as can be seen here:
https://hanziyuan.net/#主
Source: Sear's Chinese Etymology.
Unexpected meeting, yu4, is the first word of 38.2 have some connotations reminiscent of H.44, maybe that brings Karcher to think that the alley must be CROOKED PATH and that the LORD went in disguise, clandestine. The alley shoul be not only crooked but also DARK.

When you first meet a marriage partner it is not always love at first sight. However attitudes look to have changed by the time the crooked path has led to 38.6.
Chinese marriage custom changed. In Zhou times a high class, HONORALE MARRIAGE must be arranged between the parents of both families, without the personal involvement of brides and grooms.

But there were REMNANTS of earlier customs like the rapture of the bride. Between COMMONERS there were another customs that allowed some freedom to the youngs to determine their partners, be by courtship or by chance in comunal festivities.

Those customs were disreputable for the aristocracy. Be said that UNESPECTED ENCOUNTERS were normal in Childbirth Myths on Dynasty Innitiators. Ancestral Mothers use to get pregnant even meeting with dragons, stepping on footprints, swallowing eggs and the like.

I had not seen it like that before, however we certainly come up against the villian within us ( branded man with no nose) and the trickster fox and the 'hungry souls and angry ghosts' in Line 4. Having met them on the lonely road we have to join with them to make peace with them in some way: to make peace with ourselves. This line reminds me a bit of a Dark Night of the Soul experience. This is the only way forward and as Huang notes this is a place to "fuse sincerity and truthfulness" and 'their minds can be communicated and filled".
I love that VILLAIN WITHIN US, but I espect that we will not be the NOSELESS BRANDED MAN, Nobody's perfect!
In the received text doesn't say that the road be LONELY but like it too.

It makes me think that the encounter is between STRANGERS IN THE NIGHT.
You know..
Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo
Doo-doo-dee-dah, dah-dah-dah-dah-dah​


Agree. 38.6 - they are "not an invader, but a suitor" or as Karcher puts it "Those you are confronting are definitely not outlaws.
I've said that 38 is a STRANGE hexagram. Is that there are PIGS everywhere? And for worse dirty!
Here is a pig, boar, not the suckling pig of H.33. Say that the suitors in disguise looked like OUTLAWS, maybe described like DIRTY PIGS. Maybe at last they were INVADERS.
The repeated sequence says:
匪寇婚媾
fei3 kou4 hun1 gou4
NO BANDITS MARRY MARRY
They are no bandits, they are looking for marriage and fornication​

Annotation:
fei3not / bandit /
kou4bandit / robber / invader /
hun1to marry / marriage / wedding / to take a wife /
gou4to marry / to copulate / (3)
At first glance it looks like a 2-syllabe word meaning GANGSTERS, followed by two one-syllabe words meaning FETCHING WOMEN TO COPULATE !
This possibility forced many translator to resort to euphemistic circumlocutions. Maybe they felt uncomfortable. If they were not SUITORS they would be DIRTY PIGS.
If you mean the one about Spofford Alley, then yes. The place/ source of the dark and shady goings on of the Chinese Underworld (The Shadow Lands). Tong ruled and with a bit of free masonry thrown in for good measure.
Sun was a recognized leader and was not a gangster in spite of the fact that in Spofford Alley were more expected prostitution, drug trafficking and murder.
'Alley Oop' from my understanding is a French / English commingling. Allez - "go forward" ; "oop" the English word 'up' but supposed how it would be said with a French accent, The comic strip I have not seen before, however, the phrase reminds me of circus rings and the lion tamer prompting the animal to jump from one place to another or shouted when in the process of jumping through the hoops.
I read it when a was a boy. Please, don't ask me how old I am now! It comes to my mind because in the strip that I've posted here is a sample of H.44 GOU's GIRL, a STRONG LADY indeed.
Incubation periods can be a long time and conditions have to be right for the effects of viruses to show themselves.
Good Luck
China 1911 conditions were so bad that didn't need coronavirus for worsening. I believe.


All the best,

Charly
________________________
(1) , yu4, to meet with shares menings with 遘 gou4.
  • An image, an idol. A wooden doll. [00909] [source(s): Gakken]
  • An even number. [] [source(s): Gakken]
  • Couple, pair, counterpart. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Man and wife; friend. [source(s): Gakken]
  • To face each other; to mate; a mate. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Oneʼs company, friends, group. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Same kind. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Accidentally, by chance, unexpectedly, coincidentally. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Occasionally, once in a while, rarely. [source(s): Gakken]
  • Not to be taken for granted. [source(s): Gakken]
, gou4, (that shares the right component with gou4) means::
  • To meet. To come across; bump into unexpectedly. To come upon suddenly. [] [16210] [source(s): Gakken]
  • Relationships between men and women. [source(s): Gakken]
(3) , gou4:
  • Bigamy. [重婚] Intra-blood marriage. [縁婚] Marriage. [03810] [source(s): Gakken]
  • To couple, copulate, pair up, mate. [性交] To mix together. [source(s): Gakken]
  • To harmonize with. [source(s): Gakken]
  • To meet. [source(s): Gakken]
  • To become intimate with. [source(s): Gakken]
  • To love, be affectionate toward; treat tenderly. [source(s): Gakken]
Source: Carles Muller: CJKV online dictionary.

Ch.
 
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charly

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Quotes from an old thread:
For me meeting a "master" means meeting someone who can tell you what to do, who can give advice or teach. If that is on some public place, you find advice which is commonly accepted. In an alley you get the weird kind, very individual, maybe not at all approved of by others.

I got this line when I met someone who was certainly not approved of by the people I live with, but who was for me a great help. Without him I would have had a very hard time.

It did not do any harm to anyone, so I did not listen to the protests.

That master does not have to be a person, it may be your own insight or experience, which teaches you what to do or how to go on.
Thanks, LiSe.

Charly
 
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my_key

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Hi Charly
Your in depth translations and images have set my creative juices flowing. I'm not sure I agree with all your perspectives but still feel that there is a general concensus.
One way of looking at 38 is from trigram image perspective - Fire over Lake.
This could be seen as the warmth and light of the eternal flame obscured by the mists of time rising from the lake surface. An image of reflection and illusion. The flame is pure image scattered into many parts and into many directions by the droplets of the mist. We struggle, having to stand on our own two feet, towards finding a clear image of things in the opaque, distorted world in which we are now walking. Above is not below, inner and outer mingle while black could well be white.

This is indeed a STRANGE hexagram! One in which we are encouraged to make sense of things through seeing the up and the down, the in and the out and the right and the wrong of things in new ways. When the conductor of the orchestra unexpectedly reveals himself and his ways to us we start of play a different tune, or maybe just play it in a different key to begin with.

I would share the sentiments made by LiSe
That master does not have to be a person, it may be your own insight or experience, which teaches you what to do or how to go on.
And more times than not see Hex 38 speaking to me about me and the roots of my experiences. What was real for me then - is it still real for me now?

Maybe the suitors only appear as dirty pigs and are not so when we view them through different (light bejeweled) spectacles. Maybe the same applies to the branded man and the cart load of villians so that they are unable to finish what they started. There are opportunities for new beginnings.The things we were married to are unexpectedly brought under the light of the flame and exposed for what they are. The illusions are broken here in Hex 38 then the process continues when we dispel the burdens and hardships in Hex 39 and then get a fuller sense of relief in Hex 40.

Something like - The 50lb weight I was using to hold my hat on in the wind was actually the cause of my pain in the neck. I remove the weight, hold onto the hat and hey presto the pain is gone and what's more the wind wasn't going to blow my hat off anyway. This was just false thinking on my part - started and then stopped. This thought / behaviour could not continue when it was seen in the cool light of day.

Hex 38 talks of of not being able to be married to two ideas at the same time. It is no bigamist, so only one of the ideas can be the one true enough now to share true intimacy.
Which one do we choose to feed and sleep with the dark wolf or the white wolf?

.....or maybe it's nothing like this at all.
 
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