how do you carry a ting?

[dobro p]

Well, how do you carry a ting? I don't know, cuz I've never had to carry one, and I've never seen one carried. The pictures I've seen of them have holes in the 'ears', the handles, but what went through those holes? Rings? A pole? Or did you just grab a couple of pot holders and trust to your luck while you wrestled it off the fire?

 

[Sparhawk]

With your hands??

I understand that a pole was inserted through the handle-holes. If the handles had rings then poles would go through them. I supposed it depended on how big and heavy they were. Usually, big tings had rings to divide the weight load.

This is a small one...

You can also read a very interesting article about Western Zhou bronzes, here (file is some 12MB...)

 

[dobro p]

Usually, big tings had rings...

That's not just useful, that's poetic.

 

[Sparhawk]

That's the ting about it. I strive to please...

 

[dobro p]

That's the ting about it. I strive to please...

Me too.

(Don't read this, Lindsay - it'll make you crazy...)

(dobro tunes up his old banjo...plinka plinka plink...plinka plinka plink)

Okay, here we go...

I need a ring for my big ting
Oh won't you help me out
I need a ring for my big ting
Gonna fry me up some sprouts
Gonna ask the Yi to answer me
And clarify my doubts
But I need a ring for my big ting
Can't you help me out?

(Everybody!)

I need a ring... etc

 

[Sparhawk]

Some twisted innuendo in those lyrics but I like it... You are on your own though; no help forthcoming from this quarters...

 

[dobro p]

Innuendo? Surely you jest.

I mean, you started it. I ask a perfectly straightforward question about a cauldron and suddenly the conversation's about a churning urn of burning funk. Tsk. Luis.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey, I provided a straightforward answer. You are the one seeing tings in those tings; not only that, you are under the impression that you possess a big ting, which I seriously doubt (those were destroyed at the end of the Shang... )

 

[dobro p]

plinka plinka plink...

Oh my name is Wang
And I'm from the Shang
Before the Zhou kicked butt
And my ting's as big
As a Szechuan pig
Which is why I'm proud of it

Oh never mind...

 

[fkegan]

Me too.

(Don't read this, Lindsay - it'll make you crazy...)
(dobro tunes up his old banjo...plinka plinka plink...plinka plinka plink)
Okay, here we go...

I need a ring for my big ting
Oh won't you help me out
I need a ring for my big ting
Gonna fry me up some sprouts
Gonna ask the Yi to answer me
And clarify my doubts
But I need a ring for my big ting
Can't you help me out?
(Everybody!)
I need a ring... etc

Hi Dobro,

Small technical quibble while you and Luis challenge each other over the size of your Ting...
Wilhelm Part III commentary on the Judgment notes:

Strictly speaking, food is of course not cooked in the ting but is served in it after being cooked in the kitchen;...

Thus, not likely your ting would be hot or otherwise a burden to pick up, most of its weight would be in the bronze not the ribs or other BBQ put inside for ritual dinner delight. Probably if you had a truly humongous ting which was going to be filled with an entire spit-roasted BBQ pig, you would have the cook take a cleaver to it load the pieces in the ting and the ting on a serving cart with wheels and bring it into the banquet with great pomp and ceremony as part of the sacrifice ritual part of the meal (either before or after the live money brain entertainment course)--check protocol with the ritual party planner.

Frank

 

[meng]

ting - Get In My Belly!

 

[Tohpol]

Yeah, you know what they say about those who who draw attention to their Ting....

Topal

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, you know what they say about those who who draw attention to their Ting....

Tsk. Shameless self-advertisement, Topal.

 

[meng]

They lose everyting?

 

[dobro p]

Hey that picture that Topal posted of his ting gave me an idea. Look at the handle on the ting - it's curved, right? Maybe the old Chinese tings had a similar handle. See, this whole ting is coming from my wondering about xuan4, which is variously translated. Xuan4 is the thing that goes through the ears/handles of the ting. But what was it? 50.5 says it was metal, and 50.6 says it was jade. A jade bar? That would be a TON of jade. Seems unlikely to me. Also seems unlikely that it was a handle like in Topal's self-portrait. Maybe something smaller? Maybe something that was more decorative than functional? Jade breaks easily. I wouldn't use it for toting heavy things with.

 

[fkegan]

Hey that picture that Topal posted of his ting gave me an idea. Look at the handle on the ting - it's curved, right? Maybe the old Chinese tings had a similar handle. See, this whole ting is coming from my wondering about xuan4, which is variously translated. Xuan4 is the thing that goes through the ears/handles of the ting. But what was it? 50.5 says it was metal, and 50.6 says it was jade. A jade bar? That would be a TON of jade. Seems unlikely to me. Also seems unlikely that it was a handle like in Topal's self-portrait. Maybe something smaller? Maybe something that was more decorative than functional? Jade breaks easily. I wouldn't use it for toting heavy things with.

Hi Dobro,
Isn't the point of the Ting that it is a sophisticated ritual serving vessel, to be used to hold prepared food that is then distributed by the Head of the Household to the assembled folks at table. The beauty and value of the material ornamenting the rings and their impressiveness as a table decoration seem more important than their strength for hauling heavy carcasses about so Luis' Dragon can BBQ them.

What is really, truly so disconcerting you?

Frank

 

[dobro p]

Hi Dobro,
Isn't the point of the Ting that it is a sophisticated ritual serving vessel, to be used to hold prepared food that is then distributed by the Head of the Household to the assembled folks at table. The beauty and value of the material ornamenting the rings and their impressiveness as a table decoration seem more important than their strength for hauling heavy carcasses about so Luis' Dragon can BBQ them.

What is really, truly so disconcerting you?

I'm not disconcerted, I'm having some fun. So don't be disconcerted at my disconcert, becuz it's a null set.

So, okay, the ting is a ritual serving vessel, and the rings are ornamental, and not actually used to carry the damn thing to the table. Okay, now I understand.

By the way, have you ever seen a picture of ting rings?

 

[rosada]

Old musicians never die.
They just get dis concerted.

 

[meng]

Perhaps the jade handles are symbolic of the hands or handling of the Ting and its contents, which makes quite a contrast with line 4.

 

[hilary]

Don't be too sure about the not cooking part. I know Wilhelm asserts this, but the authors of the Commentary on the Decision on 50 had a lot to say about cooking, and the Image too speaks of 'consolidating', which also means 'congealing' - OK, that's not appetising, but it seems to me to be a reference to the changes that come about through cooking.

Also, the structure of the thing seems designed to stand in the fire. I can imagine a design that started out practical eventually becoming for ritual use only - especially given those truly massive ones - but retaining its symbolic associations of cooking, transformation etc.

I've puzzled over a jade bar being too brittle to lift a full ding, too, at least the huge ones. Maybe at this point we're meant to understand that the ding will stay in place? (Jade is good for things you intend to endure forever, as it never corrodes. Also see zhi gua.)

 

[Tohpol]

So, okay, the ting is a ritual serving vessel, and the rings are ornamental, and not actually used to carry the damn thing to the table. Okay, now I understand.
By the way, have you ever seen a picture of ting rings?

Perhaps the handles/rings could also be used to raise the Ting up over the fire? In other words, a kind of standard winch system where a chain or toughened leather was threaded through the rings. That would give some sense to the idea that making ritual sacrifices via this "Ting" included the meaning of a "tripod" which could be attributed to this cooking arrangement.

Topal

 

[Sparhawk]

By the way, have you ever seen a picture of ting rings?

That's a slippery slope... Assuming you refer to 'tings" as ancient Chinese sacrificial bronze vessels in general, here is one bristling with them. This is called a Tui.

And here is a Hu

 

[fkegan]

Is the Ting Concrete or Symbolic?

Don't be too sure about the not cooking part. I know Wilhelm asserts this, but the authors of the Commentary on the Decision on 50 had a lot to say about cooking, and the Image too speaks of 'consolidating', which also means 'congealing' - OK, that's not appetising, but it seems to me to be a reference to the changes that come about through cooking.

Also, the structure of the thing seems designed to stand in the fire. I can imagine a design that started out practical eventually becoming for ritual use only - especially given those truly massive ones - but retaining its symbolic associations of cooking, transformation etc.

I've puzzled over a jade bar being too brittle to lift a full ding, too, at least the huge ones. Maybe at this point we're meant to understand that the ding will stay in place? (Jade is good for things you intend to endure forever, as it never corrodes. Also see zhi gua.)

Hi Hilary, Dobro, Meng and Luis,

Dobro, when one sings out and jokes around, that is usually an expression of some inner upset or disconcerted-ness though Meng (from other threads) expresses his inner upset through the other end of the alimentary canal...

In general this hexagram seems to be more about symbolism than concrete bronze work. The hexagram is made up of wood and fire, taken as symbolic of the cooking process where one structure (log) is destroyed to produce heat to make the transformation of cooking.

Symbolic objects generally are crafted to look like the earlier concrete functional objects out from which the symbolism arises. The Ting is all about transformation using cooking metaphors.

Gia-Fu translates the Image by: Fire above wood. Cauldron. The gentleman corrects his position and rectifies his destiny.

As a cooking metaphor I would more see the image referring to a 'reduction' or cooking of a sauce which is indeed more appealing and tasty as an image than congealing which is from Latin for freezing.

Gold and Jade are both beautiful, non-corroding, valuable and impressive as ornaments on the table service.

Or to the original question...how do you carry a Ting? Its symbolic and the kitchen staff is tasked to actually prepare the ritual food offering and put it into the ceremonial Ting and position the full Ting as required--It is just to be there for Head of Table to distribute food and sophisticated social transformation to the assembled Host.

Frank (Kegan)

 

[lorrainep]

Thus, not likely your ting would be hot or otherwise a burden to pick up, most of its weight would be in the bronze not the ribs or other BBQ put inside for ritual dinner delight.

Frank, what's with the barbeque theme of late? Just the nice weather? I'm getting jealous.

 

[fkegan]

Why BBQ? It's Divine....

Frank, what's with the barbeque theme of late? Just the nice weather? I'm getting jealous.

Hi Lorraine,
BBQ is the ultimate human sensual experience--and you get to bite into it and chew it too!

The BBQ theme is always near and dear to my heart, in Genesis it is cited as the only reason God promises Noah to not flood the Earth again and gave the Rainbow.

Of course, with the climate crisis, it seems we need to return to basics again and BBQ a lot more to put delicious smoke in God's nostrils again.

For more detail, it arose in some thread with Luis' dragon breathing fire and then he posted the Argentine butchers' official meat cuts and also we just bought a George Foreman very simple electric BBQ grill and I found its flavor truly Divine. At that point I was hooked and its been BBQ on my mind ever since...

It keeps coming up on this thread in the back and forth between the Ting as an ancient bronze artifact and thoughts about whether it was originally a cooking pot or always a fancy ceremonial serving platter.

Have you seen my website? I finally got everything basic I have to say out in almost intelligible English.

Frank

 

[lorrainep]

we just bought a George Foreman very simple electric BBQ grill

Aha...

Have you seen my website? I finally got everything basic I have to say out in almost intelligible English.

Yes, it looks great, and thank you for the typed-out Gia-Fu. Interesting and in some parts anxiety-inducing (like the elections). I get lost from some of the zodiac content because I don't know enough of that.

 

[fkegan]

Aha...

Yes, it looks great, and thank you for the typed-out Gia-Fu. Interesting and in some parts anxiety-inducing (like the elections). I get lost from some of the zodiac content because I don't know enough of that.

There is something about having my first BBQ which both intensifies my love of that Divine ritual food and also prompts me to think about the symbolic implications of the ancient Ting.
Carrying a Ting or even a doggerel tune about a Ting is just so concrete...

I am trying to deal with the zodiac stuff. It's actually very simple once one knows the signs Aries to Pisces are just 1st to 12th and explained by the dot patterns on Dice. There is a Learn Astrology page from the first paragraphs of the Home Page, but I need to work more on introductory stuff. Also, I still have not come to peace with my X-Ray Eye technique which integrates astrology and the Yi, I still worry it is just too powerful to be let loose upon the world, but I'm adjusting.

The election is scary, but on the good side, only partially as terrifying as Next Year with its many impending amazements, so at least we have the comfort of knowing this is the last year of the good times still rolling...

I am learning all about scribe transcription errors, I actually typed out my Gia-Fu text to make that database and every so often I come across a word or phrase that doesn't sound right, and sure enough it was a copyist error.

I have come to appreciate Gia-Fu's text a lot more since I got it out and have been using it here as an alternative to Wilhelm. There is a thread about hex 56.5 where a major dispute broke out between those translating the Chinese as simple logic, the arrow hit the pheasant and those taking the alternative translation that the arrow was lost, but the wanderer still succeeds eventually. I was in the simple camp, but then I checked Gia-Fu and he wasn't. Turns out to be a far more interesting and sophisticated interpretation of the line.

Somehow, I can't stop thinking about the other thread... Hilary asking for help. It seems this beginning of a new century (millennium and Great Age) should be a good time for folks to turn their Yi knowledge, etc into Internet income. Obama is just the tip of the iceberg of drawing true abundance from the waves of cyberspace.

Do you want income from Yi experience? If so it is a different Tao than just doing Yi things. Folks have money to spend for knowledge, relationship with folks who are long time involved in stuff that intrigues them, and instruction in what is good or how to do exotic things, etc. But if you are just presenting information folks only think about information not paying money.

It does seem though, to loop again back through the ears of the Ting, that one does have to be clear what one is seeking. Folks will climb aboard and help you get to your destination if they are clear about where you are heading. As with carrying a Ting--is it a heavy object made of bronze that would be tough to carry around? OR Is it a symbolic object which one doesn't pick up or put into cooking fires or otherwise interfere with its proper luster or symbolic purity.

One admires a Ting, not thinking about how to lug it about, put it into a BBQ pit or the like. The concept is what is to be picked up and that is all about this ancient ceremonial object which was made part of household ritual rather than just part of the great public rituals with the sacrifice of an ox.

Frank

 

[dobro p]

I'll bet the early ones were used for cooking, and I'll bet the holes in the ears had a pole put through to lift it up and move it around. I'll bet that if the more recent, fancy jobs were ritual vessels, their design and at least part of their function was based on a real prototype, a real cooking vessel.

Back in the early days in Europe, we used to spit whole pigs and serve them up table central, complete and whole on a platter with an apple in their mouth. My point is that early diners were rather more primitive in some ways (or less fastidious) than we are. A lot of us still eat pig, but we don't like it looking back at us from the table before we tuck in. Dining fashions evolve. Maybe tings do too.

 

[fkegan]

I'll bet the early ones were used for cooking, and I'll bet the holes in the ears had a pole put through to lift it up and move it around. I'll bet that if the more recent, fancy jobs were ritual vessels, their design and at least part of their function was based on a real prototype, a real cooking vessel.

Back in the early days in Europe, we used to spit whole pigs and serve them up table central, complete and whole on a platter with an apple in their mouth. My point is that early diners were rather more primitive in some ways (or less fastidious) than we are. A lot of us still eat pig, but we don't like it looking back at us from the table before we tuck in. Dining fashions evolve. Maybe tings do too.

Hi Dobro,
Of course originally the ting was based upon a cooking pot. Just like the first metal knives were carefully worked to appear like flint knives, the first pottery bowls were scored to look like wicker baskets. Folks know about the concrete objects they are familiar with best and when a new innovation is made it needs to look like the old familiar thing when introduced.

The Ting was the shiny bronze cooking pot looking thing that would be decorated with gold and jade since it was never to be set in a fire and always to be the elegant table service for ritual meals. What is important about the Ting, Confucius tells us in his commentary is the highly sophisticated ritual and social use it was part of, not how its early precursors were carried about and cooked with.

What did ancient or archaic Chinese kitchens use to cook food--that is its own question--but I doubt they used gold or jade. Roast suckling pig is still served. I remember enjoying a fully grown whole pig roasted on the spit, at a convention in Puerto Rico, so it isn't just an ancient custom. Actually, I seem to remember several of them during the week. No one was disturbed by its head or the cooks butchering the corpse on the spit to prepare our plates.

The ancient European model involved roasting red heads or heretics not just baby pigs and of course those events were public spectacles as well as religious rituals.

I quibble about this point since, as you note, you are comparing this Chinese history to European usage. Our Chinese anthropologist friend mentioned how yuckky he found the custom of Americans serving a slab of steak at dinner, with its bloody juices oozing out upon the platter, to be cut up with steak knives and sharp forks by the assembled diners-- quite totally barbaric. Not the proper way to cook or serve food, too much like coming to table with weapons, just not the level of civilization he expected in urban life.

Not that the traditional Chinese were totally without their peculiarities at dinner. Gia-Fu mentioned that banquets were social competitions. The host was expected to have a great array of fine and expensive dishes freely available. Then the competition started, everyone eating as fast as they possibly could. The host won if he could eat his fill while his guests were still hungry, since the guests must put down their chopsticks and end their meal when the host did. And a guest who was a master of this game could devour a vast quantity of expensive food before the host could finish his dinner. They both got indigestion, but it was the social advantage of the competition that truly mattered.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Dobro, when one sings out and jokes around, that is usually an expression of some inner upset or disconcerted-ness though Meng (from other threads) expresses his inner upset through the other end of the alimentary canal...

Oh my, I must be terminally ill...