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How does one arrive at a hexagram below 36 or above 54?

rsenator

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Please forgive the newbie unable to search the forum properly. I have taken the intro course but I cannot conceive how one arrives at a hexagram below 36 (i.e., 6 lines of 6) or above 54 (i.e., 6 lines of 9). It is clearly done, as the hexagrams are present in the charts, I just do not understand the way in which one would arrive these numbers by casting 6 times and using 6, 7, 8, or 9 for each line.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.
 

bradford

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It happens, but it's rare. Once in 4096 casts for each.
 
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Freedda

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how one arrives at a hexagram below 36 (i.e., 6 lines of 6) or above 54 (i.e., 6 lines of 9).
Bradford seems to have a sense of this, but I'm not clear what you mean by 'below' and 'above'? Are you saying, how does 36 'change into' 54?

Or something else?

Best, D
 
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Freedda

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PS - if you're using coins, you'll get one unchanging, or 'UC' hexgram if all your tosses are made up of 7s and 8s.

And you'll get two hexagrms - a Primary and a Resulting (also called a related. or 'change to') hexagram - if one or more (or all) of your tosses are 6s and 9s.

Does that help at all?
 

rsenator

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What if I provide a a case for you. The numbers 8, 8, 9, 8, 8, and 7. The would add up to 48, and my guess is that the 9 would indicate a change. I changed the 9 to an 8 and arrived at 47; is that correct?
 
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Freedda

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First, a question: is this order of the numbers you share, above, was the first toss an 8, and then going to the last, 7, or was it the other way around? If you let me know that I can better respond to your example.

I think I get what you're doing here: you are adding up all the 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s you get which will give you a number between 36 and 54. So using this counting method, how would you ever come up with a number below 36 or higher than 54?

So NO, what you are doing (adding up the numbers) is not anything I've every heard of, or at least not the way I learned to do a reading.

So, I suggest that you take a look at the free lessons here to get the basics ....

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/beginners/

In summary: You start with a coin toss (of three coins), and you get either a 6, or a 7, or an 8, or a 9 - and you write that down. Then you do this five more times and write each number down, one on top of the other - so the first toss is the at the bottom and the number from the last/final toss is at the top. You then create the hexagram or hexagrams from this.

.... And here you're going to have to know or learn the basics of what each of these numbers means, which you can find in the free online course.

Or ... I think there are others system of coming up with the hexgram(s), which are based on some kind of counting systems (like counting the time, month, date, year, pages in a book, etc), and I suppose this could include counting the numbers you come up with with the coins, but I know nothing about that one, and it is not in commonly used on this website.

Best, D
 
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svenrus

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#1
"............. how one arrives at a hexagram below 36 (i.e., 6 lines of 6) or above 54 (i.e., 6 lines of 9)............ "
6 lines of 6 is hexagram number 2 and 6 lines of 9 are hexagram number 1. Both are far beyond hex. 36 and hex. 54. And 6 lines of 7 are hex. 1 again like 6 lines of 8 are hex. 2
Or: 6 lines of 6 ain't hex. 36. 6 lines of 7 ain't hex. 42. 6 lines of 8 ain't hex. 48. 6 lines of 9 ain't 54

Or: Follow Freeda's advice on #7
 
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Freedda

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hh
6 lines of 6 is hexagram number 2 and 6 lines of 9 are hexagram number 1.
Yes, this is the method that we're both familar with (I assume) - but also, here with all 6s and all 9s these are both changing hexgrams ... but that's another matter.

But what rsenator is doing is completly different: they are instead adding up the sums of the coin tosses, WITHOUT converting them to lines - broken, unbroken, moving, unmoving .... So they are doing something entirely different than what we are doing - and their 'method' only gives them numbers between 36 and 54, which is not right!

So, I suggested that they look at the free basic course on this website if they want to understand how we're 'counting' the coins, and coming up with hexagrams ranging from 1 through 64 (and some of these are changing and some are not). I also said I'd respond to their example, once they confirm the order of the numbers.

Best, D
 
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rsenator

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Thank you, everyone, for your considerate and measured responses. The order is from bottom (1st thrown) to top (last thrown): 8, 8, 9, 8, 8, 7.
 
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Freedda

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The order is from bottom (1st thrown) to top (last thrown): 8, 8, 9, 8, 8, 7.
What this gives you is Hexagram 52 with the 3rd line moving (or changing), resulting in Hexagram 23.

The way that's commonly written here is: 52.3 > 23

I hope that - along with the free course here - helps to clear things up. But keep in mind, this way of coming up with a response will always have the chance of giving you hexagrams from 1 to 64.

Best, D
 

rsenator

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Very, very helpful and thank you. I have completed the intro course but did not grasp how to "convert" the lines. I think it is because the graphics on the Trace the Changes slide/screen did not appear properly for me (see screenshot attached).

Is there another place I might look here or elsewhere that provides an explanation? Thank you in advance.
 

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Freedda

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Is there another place I might look here or elsewhere that provides an explanation?
Many, many Yi books have a section about this, so that's a good place to start. I'm attached an image that shows some of this, and I hope it's helpful - maybe the missing piece from what you were studying.

Remember, if you get only 7s and 8s then you end up with only a Primary hexagram - which is sometimes designated as Unchanging, or UC, or uc. But if you get any 6s and 9s, even just one, then you get a Primary hexagram, plus whatever the changing/moving lines change into, which then gives you a second hexagram, often called the Related or Resulting hexagram.

Yi-18-10-25-07-28-37xxx.jpg
 
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rsenator

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I am pleased to inform you that I figured it out. I looked at a couple instructional videos on YouTube and finally got sorted. For what it's worth, I was literally adding the numbers together instead of using the reference table as a catalyst for the trigrams (upper and lower) to arrive at the (2) hexagrams.

In fact, it was not clear to me that the old yin functions as a yin (broken line) and the old yang functions as a yang (solid line) when searching for the initial trigrams (for the Primary Hexagram) in the reference chart. Once I realized that the old yang in line 3 (as indicated in my previous number series) would function as a solid line (3rd line from the bottom) for the lower trigram of the Primary hexagram, then it was smooth sailing. From there I conceived the two trigrams leading to 52 in the Primary and, once moving the old yang to yin (broken line as the 3rd line), I was able to arrive at the Related Hexagram of 23.

Thank you, again, as you were attentive, kind, and generous with your responses, time, and energy. May you reap, what you sow. Cheers!
 
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svenrus

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#9, Freedda
But what rsenator is doing is completly different: they are instead adding up the sums of the coin tosses, WITHOUT converting them to lines - broken, unbroken, moving, unmoving .... So they are doing something entirely different than what we are doing - and their 'method' only gives them numbers between 36 and 54, which is not right!

Yeah I see now, and I overlooked the "Newbee" that rsenator entitled him/her self with. Thank You, and yes that method isn't right.
----------------
(I wish I could be a newbee all the way down the line. That's where learning resonates, today I assume that I know but this false assumption block's for further and deeper understanding, generally. But that's just me thinking)
 
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Freedda

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Yeah I see now, and I overlooked the "Newbee" ....

.... I wish I could be a newbee all the way down the line.
I didn't get it at first either, but the 'below 36' and 'above 54' clued me in, as in 6 lines x the number 6 = 36, and 6 lines x the number 9 = 54.

As to seeing like a newbie again - what in Zen they call 'beginner's mind' - that takes a bit of effort I think, and being open to not always being right.

D
 

rsenator

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Thank you, again. I am looking forward to more efforts now, and I understand I will likely return with questions about the multiple moving lines.

Have a fine week everyone.
 
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svenrus

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The foundation behind this book in particular are very interesting. As You can see in the attached pdf, two mainfigures concerning the break-through of I Ching in the West were closely connected to this group of researchers.....

-------

A review of the book:
https://www.biroco.com/yijing/ritsema.htm
 

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