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How Far of the Future Should We Ask About?

marybluesky

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It's said that we have better to focus on the present while consulting the oracle, however many of us ask questions that involve future:

Will we come together ?
Please give me insight to my fiances during the winter.
Describe my 2019!

I know that the life brings changes and we aren't fated to be this and that in ten years. That said, what do you think about the length of time we could ask about?
 

my_key

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My view is the farther we ask into the future the more generic and non-specific we need to treat the answer. For longer time frames I've seen the Yi give responses that seem to hedge it's bets too. The wisdom of the woolly! It's rarely wrong but when what it revealed actually comes to pass it takes me a good while to realise that that was what that divination was all about 9 months ago. Eagle eyed hindsight is not always the most helpful of things.

For me the longer the time frame the harder it is to make some meaning of the divination on a life experience basis or to recall what it was I was being invited to do for the best, and I tend to go off track all too easy.
In the moment assessment questions e.g. What's going on for me now? What's happening in my relationship with X?; daily queries e.g. How do I get the best results from the meeting today?; weekly overviews e.g. What's this week got in store for me? give the most reliable responses for me. I recently asked a 3 month question and got a great answer and then chose to ignore the wisdom given. Needless to say I am now working my way through the consequences of taking a different path.

12 month projections I tend to break down into 8 or nine topics and ask seperate questions of each. It takes longer but I get a bunch of answers that I can more readily work with and allow me to focus on developing a plan for each.

Working as close to the present as I can gives me the clarity of response that I am looking for from the I Ching, the longer into the future I ask about the less clarity I get.

Great question. I'll be interested to see what others post.
 

boyler

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... for a person it is until s/he ceases to exist ... for humanity it is until humanity ceases to exist ... for earth it is until earth ceases to exist ... and for heaven it is until universe ceases to exist ...
 

Freedda

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I think that you should not predict out further than 12 days, 7 hours, and 39 minutes ... or, perhaps, maybe you might pose that question to the Yi and see what you get back ... or, that is a very open-ended question and I think it would depend on what you are asking about, and what you expect from the answer:

"Will I be famous some day?" A good question if you don't care if this happens or when. "Will I find love?" Again, does it matter to you if it happens when you're 46 or when your 96? If no, then perhaps a good question to ask.

"Will I get a good job within the next six months?" I suppose it could work, but usually the Yi doesn't answer with a simple 'yes' or 'no' but instead comes with recommendations for what you might or should do to increase the likelihood of a positive outcome (or to avoid a negative one). And if you don't follow that advice? Or if you were to follow it and not get the outcome you wanted or expected?

I think it would be interesting if you could tell us what type of question you might want to ask in this situation and what the time frame would be? Or, is this more of a theoretical or philosophical type of inquiry? If so, it gets even hard to answer.

Best, David.
 
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marybluesky

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I think it would be interesting if you could tell us what type of question you might want to ask in this situation and what the time frame would be? Or, is this more of a theoretical or philosophical type of inquiry? If so, it gets even hard to answer.
Any question that involves the future. I wrote some examples. I'm not talking about "when" questions that demand the I Ching to precise some sort of date; rather "how" and "will" questions.
Will I be famous some day?
This for example. If the cast says"no", should the questioner forget about becoming famous for the rest of her life? If no, how should she interpret it? Does this cast just reflect present possibilities? Or what?
That's why I ask how far in the future is appropriate to ask about; or, if not mentioned in the question, to be considered in the interpretation.
 
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The future can't be told, because it doesn't exist. Remember that anything you hear about the future is always speculation, no matter the source. That would be my two cents.
 

Freedda

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Any question that involves the future. I wrote some examples. I'm not talking about "when" questions that demand the I Ching to precise some sort of date; rather "how" and "will" questions.

Originally Posted by Freedda
Will I be famous some day?

This for example. If the cast says"no", should the questioner forget about becoming famous for the rest of her life? If no, how should she interpret it? Does this cast just reflect present possibilities? Or what?
That's why I ask how far in the future is appropriate to ask about; or, if not mentioned in the question, to be considered in the interpretation.
Mary, I realized I may not be the best person to answer this question, because I don't generally use the I Ching as a prognosticator for future events.

For me I think it more suggests advice, both about what to do and what not to do. And I often think the answer is a reflection of the person's state of being, and not so much about the specific question.

Some examples:

Asking "Will I be famous someday?" and the Yi might respond with "that's possible if you make effort," (which could include the correct effort at the proper time and in the correct amount), or "maybe you need examine why you feel invisible right now, and is that why you want to be famous?"

Or, "Will I find someone to love?" (or the many variations of this). I think the Yi might respond: "to start with, you need to stop looking for love in the wrong places and with the wrong people," or, "there is a deep fear here that you need to address."

So, about the future, and how long into it to ask, hmmm, I don't think I can answer that very well.

Best, David
 

diamanda

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The future can't be told, because it doesn't exist.
I strongly disagree with this.

It very well can be told, if it is already visible by a divinatory oracle that is.

Some things are already decided as we speak, and some others are up to us - divination is great to tell us which of the two is the case with our question.

As about how far in the future 'should' we ask about. There's no should. You can ask however far you want. However, to avoid confusion or despair, it's helpful to specify a time-frame in your question. It's good not only for clarity of interpretation - it's also good psychologically. For example:

Will I find a new job this month?
Will he/she communicate with me this week?
Will I meet a stable partner this year?

The answers will then show if there's destiny at play or not, i.e. if we can do something about it or not. Also, because we set a time limit, we can continue with renewed hope afterwards if the answer is bad ;)
 

chingching

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You know I have cast readings for the present moment that have actually informed me of the future, and because I read it as a present reflection I only understood its prediction in hindsight. Much as My_Key has said about their experiences too. Now I do ask questions about the future more often, although not mainly. I always frame it with specificity, and I mean very detailed. I tend to spend as much time as needed crafting the question in these cases.

For a fun experiment I asked two future based questions, the first one with a specific timeframe, the second one vague and unquestionable as a test for yi.

Will I be sexy at 60?
33.4.6 > 39 - retreat from hardship, good advice for avoiding wrinkles, as long as I attend expensive retreats

Will I die?
5.1.5 > 46 - wiating to ascend, yes, no or just hovering in limbo, at least there will be food.
 

legume

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maybe it depends on the matter we ask about? i don't think there are any limits to the I Ching, but there are limits to our understanding. so if the matter is personal, then usually the question goes already through the filter of our current mindset. but if we want to know about something that happened long long time ago (to get some insights into the bing bang perhaps) or will happen only after our death, then we simply might not have the means to grasp the message given as a result?
 

moss elk

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Will I die?
5.1.5 > 46
What a great answer!

5/Waiting
line 1, yes but it will be a long time from now.
line 5: make the most of life, enjoy the feast.

46/Do small things that will add up to something great, until then.
 

marybluesky

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Six months have past since I started this thread (2019 is passing by very fast...).

During this time I asked the I Ching questions about matters in long-term and the results were accurate BUT happened in near future. This thread is an example.

So I'd say the I Ching answers should be considered as related to immediate future (up to a few months).
 

jukkodave

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What an intersting, and important, question. I am only surprised that it hasnt received more input from everyone.

The question of how and why we use the Yi and how and why it actually works is obviously vital to be able to address such questions as to "future" events and what is actually happening when we consult the Yi in that way.

Is it that we are only "consulting" ouselves, or is the Yi something in its own right that has access to the univers that we dont. The question of if the Yi has fundamental underlying principles and reveals the ordinaces of heaven, or of the Yi is a collection of texts constructed by one or various human beings in the past for the means of divination, just as one would divine with the Tarot or any similar tool that might be constructed without the need or consideration of any "fundamentals" for any "underlying principles" at all, is obviously going to impact on ones ability to see into the future.

For those that havent been reading it, many of these are points that I have been raising in the thread "layer cake imagery", though perhaps the word cake should have been at the very least beginning with a capital letter, if not even the whole word, seeing as how most seem to love a piece of cake. There have been some very interesting discussions in that thread which are directly connected with the question of this thread.

Someone raised, though that has now been taken down, I only caught sight of it briefly, so I dont know who posted it or exactly what they said, that a reading had been, or the the possibility that they could do a reading about another person without their knowledge or permission. Although the post was taken down it raises some very imprtant points relating to the discussions in that thread which are also extremely pertinent to this thread.

Would it be a reflaction of the person asking the question, would it be accurate in terms of the person the question was about, how would one know whether the answer was directed to the questioner and about the questioner, or not, and many more such fascinating points all connected with both threads.

As these go right to the heart of what is being discussed under layer cake and the possibility of imagery it seems important to put up a post to that hugely important point. As it is intrinsically connected to the topic of this post it would seem pertinent to copy that to this thread.
It may clarify not only the questionf imagery but also the questions surrounding the possibilities of future readings and in consequence the interpretations that we might make of any readings.

Dave
 

moss elk

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The question of how*1 and why*2 we use the Yi, and how*3 and why*4 it actually works is obviously vital*5 to be able to address such questions as to "future" events and what is actually happening*6 when we consult the Yi in that way.
No, not at all.
You've tangled quite a few knots together unnecessarily.
Maybe I can help you untie them?

Each of those asterisks is a separate issue.
This is why some of your questions, in threads, have gotten a, shall we say. luke warm reception, and possibly odd seeming feedback.

*1 is methodology and for what purpose, and it is actually quite flexible. There's no point in trying to limit it.
*2 to gain insight and wisdom in order to help make good decisions, to be well. to know and do good. (in your other posts you talked about an essential need to pin down if Yi is a book of Oracle or Wisdom and the truth of the matter is: that it is both...
so you don't need to contemplate that anymore.)
3* This is likely unknowable. To quote Jung in the intro to Wilhelm's book: The Chinese standpoint does not concern itself as to the attitude that one takes toward the performance of the oracle. It is only we who are puzzled, because we trip up time and time again over our prejudice, vis, the notion of causality. The ancient wisdom of the East lays stress upon the fact that the intelligent individual realizes his own thoughts, but not in the least upon the way in which he does. The less one thinks about the theory of the I Ching, the more soundly one sleeps.

*4, the answer is because:
Love is an integral part of the Cosmos,
and You are an integral part of the Cosmos.

Chew on that for a while.
*5 is an error: knowledge, contemplation of those things is not necessary at all to benefit from Yi study. and is likely to cause tension headaches.
*6 is likely unknowable, you could contemplate this until you draw you last breath.


a reading about another person without their knowledge or permission.
Yes, this is possible.
Ken Wen was watching television down in the dungeon.


Would it be a reflaction of the person asking the question, would it be accurate in terms of the person the question was about, how would one know whether the answer was directed to the questioner and about the questioner, or not, and many more such fascinating points all connected with both threads.
It could be all manner of answer.
That is why after doing it for a while, one learns to generally ask questions about themselves, paths, what is best, how to..etc
This often rules out any need to ask about others.
Although when the circumstances and need to know really really are important, astounding clarity about others can be known, it will just flow... without knots.

Herein lies the difficulty of our work: to distinguish if we are getting a Direct answer to the question or if we are being given advice about our internal or external situation, that is a greater beneficial advice than a possibly myopic question we may have posed. Here is my sense of it: If it is really important enough to ask
Long term use, practice, will help one develop an intuitive sense of what type of answer we are given, because we most certainly get both types, in addition to other kinds of answers like: we may just have a bad attitude at the moment about the subject matter.

Have I made you feel better or worse, Dave?
I have to run for now,
the smell from my upstairs neighbors corpse is still lingering into my apartment, even though his body was removed yesterday.
 

jukkodave

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HI Moss Elk
Sorry to say but I think that perhaps it may be your knots that are tangled.

"luke warm reception, and possibly odd seeming feedback."

I wasnt considering the "reception" as a relevant issue. My interest is, as I think, or hope that I have made clear, is one of the search for the truth, both inside and outside of myself. I think that the reasons why I have gotton some "odd" feedback it far more complicated than simply someone thinking that I have my knots tangled. The odd responses seem more to do with, that either no one has grasped what I am trying to get across, or they dont have any sort of coherent, rational or logical ways to respond, or dont wish to question what is "believed", that would make the comments seem rather odd.
At least you have tried to address specifics and I certainly applaud that intention and effort.

"The question of how*1 and why*2 we use the Yi, and how*3 and why*4 it actually works is obviously vital*5 to be able to address such questions as to "future" events and what is actually happening*6 when we consult the Yi in that way."

1 and 2 are really one question. The question of why we use the Yi is inextricably linked to how we use the Yi. IGiven what I have said repeatedly in my posts I thought you would realise that when I say "how", I dont necessarily mean the mechanics, whether we use coins, stalks or another method. Although the potential for influence impacts on the effect of how, the main consequence of how and why we use the Yi is the differentiation of whether the Yi is being used in accord with its relationship to fundamental, underlying principles, the ordinances of heaven or the person using the Yi does not consider that there even are any underlying principles and it is being used as a tool of divination which would make the Yi just another tool of divination and it would not be special in any way that sets ot apart from any other tool of divinination as it would simply be the "construction" of human beings and not the "discovery" of underlying principles. A rather substantial difference that impacts completely on how and why we use the Yi.
"Yi is a book of Oracle or Wisdom and the truth of the matter is: that it is both..."
Of course it is both, have I ever said any different. But that both are in a vital fundamental way at opposite ends of the spectrum and determins very much why and how one uses the Yi remains an important discrimination and determins all sorts of things regarding why we use the Yi in the first place.

3 and 4: The question of how and why it works are not only directly connected but why it works is abundantly crucial to why and how we use the Yi, and, the consequence of how we interpet any reading.
Just because the "Chinese standpoint" is one of being apparently unconcerned does not mean that it is a correct way to approach the Yi. Firstly are you suggesting that a quote someone that amy have written the foreword because they wer relatively famous and may have only a superficial knowledge of the Chinese mentality, assuming that you can even say that a mentality can be ascribed to a whole nation of what would still have been a large country with a huge number of people even 2 thousand years ago, as someone who's opinion can be relied on to substantiate an argument.
Even if what Jung said was true how would we know if the "chinese standpoint" is not just because no one in latter China that may have said such a thing understood the Yi fully and said they were "unconcerned" is because they had no answers that might have answered such questions.
"the answer is : Love is an integral part of the Cosmos, and You are an integral part of the Cosmos."
That would suggest that you are "reading" something different than I a mposting. Is that not repeatedly what I have been saying as one of the possibilities and that possibility is a description of the underlying principles. But there are other possibilities. They may exist in conjunction with each other or they may be mutually exclusive one to another. One possibility is that there is no underlying principles such a love and being an integral part of the Cosmos and all that is contained in the method of divination, just as it would be in any other method of divination, is that it is a means to access our own subconscious. In that sense, to make the unknown already in us, known it us, and in that sense it would be no different from any other methods of chartomancy divination, or by the myriad of other methods such as the Tarot, the list is huge.
The differences between each possibility are enormous as to how we view the Yi, and consequently how we use it and the interpretaions we make of any reading.
So given that there are different possibilities that would all have different approaches I think it would actually be incredibly difficult to argue in any sort of rational and logical detail that both the how and why of our use of the Yi and our how and why it actually works are imperative to any user of the Yi, not matter what their use of the Yi is for, surely everyone would not to know that the "answers" they were getting were the most accurate and approriate and they were interpreting those answers in the most accurate and appropriate manner.

5 is most certainly not an error. Contemplation of those things is most definitely necessary to benefit from the Yi, unless of course one is not intersted or concerned with anything other than the Yi being yet another form of divination, just like the myriad of other divinatory methods and so nothing special in itself. The lack of understanding is what causes headaches not the contemplation of such things.

6, If you think that it is unknowable then there are a number of difficulties with that viewpoint.
One problem is that if it is considered to be unknowable then how would someone that considers that to be the case know which parts are actually unknowable and which parts are but not yet known.
Another is that if partsof the Yi are unknowable then its function as a divinitary tool may be more limited that we think.
Another is the reason why it is unknowable. It may be simply because we lack the knowledge and understanding of the underlying principles, it may be because the Yi only gives access to ourselves and our questions are beyond what we "know" subconsciously or even if we are connected to the Cosmos beyond the realm of our "range".
As fir ontemplating until ones last breath, perhaps the contemplation of the underlying principles is soemthing that we should be contempating until out last breath. The Yi would certainly suggest that with its references to the Superior Man and so should we not be following the guidance of the Yi so as to understand just as the Superior Man does, and as we are all connected as an "integral part of the Cosmos" is not the moment of death and our final breath just as much part of the underlying principles that we should be contemplating for as long as we possibly can, our last breath.

Of course if you wnat to limit yourself by thinking that things are unknowable then that would be your choice but I dont think that would give you any authority to make that as a definitive statement to try and prove an argument.
The simple fact is that one would have to know before one could demark the limits of what is knowable and unknowabe. The best we can ever say is that I dont know that at the moment. if one is not interested in searching for answers then that would be a completely different choice, but certainly not a definitive answer. All of which would impact on how and why one used the Yi and how and why one considers the YI works. But certainly not unknowable.
Of course if it was unknowable then it never could be written and the Yi would then only be a construction of the Human mind, not substantially different from any other form of divination and all the scholastic works and "understandings" that have been crreated around the Yi would be just castles made of sand and have no substance at all.
Only if one "understands" all of this can one know if, what, how and why the Yi is and what it can be used for.

"a reading about another person without their knowledge or permission."

Of course you can "do" a reading. There would be no way of stopping someone. The question is would it be a reading that had any meaning. Only if one understood the difference between the Yi as a method of divination that was access to one subconscious or a method of knowing the underlying principles, only if one understood the difference between if the Yi was "created" just as another other form of divination might be or was "discovered" as a representation of fundamental, underlying principles and the ordinances of heaven, the difference between being made or being a representation of that which always existed would there be the understanding of what is possible with the Yi.
If there are underlying "principles" then the question of what they are would be essential to knowing if those principles permitted the intrusion into another person life.
How would any such reading ever be interpreted, how would the person doing the readin even know if the "answer " was about the person or about themselves.
Say for example that someone did a reading about me. Perhaps to ask if there was substance to what I have been posting . If the reading came back for example in a way that was an expression of folly and ignorance, there would be no way of knowing if that was about me or the person casting the reading. One could of course be very clever and ask all sorts of clever questions to try and "solve" that problem but if what Harmon says in his video is correct then no amount of careful and clever questions is ever going to get around the proble, and one is still never going to know whether the reading is referring to the the person or the questioner. If there are underlying principles then only if those underlying principles are part of oridnances that would allow anyone to intrude into another persons life in such a powerful way would it be possible to know that the reading could even give information about another person. If the Yi is only a way into ones own subconscious then of course one could never actually have a reading about another person as one wouldonly know ones own subconscious.

All of which I think answers the last part of your post. Given what I know about the Yi I would say that despite what one may wish to believe to the contrary that one can have no means of discriminating who the answer would be about.
There is of course the important aspect of the "morality" of doing a reding about another person. If there is morality it is because there are underlying principles. If there is no morality then the question of what is capable with a method of dovination becomes imprtnat to know. The difference of knowing if it is only access to our subconscious, as we wouldnt need to consult the Yi if the answer was conscious to us, and so limited to the scope of what our subconscious has the range of, of if the subconscious has no limits and can know everything. Which of course would then declare that there is no such thing as anything being unknowable.
Whicheve way you cut that logically and rationally you are not going to get a reading actaully about another person unless we can know everything, everything is connected and there are underlying principles, but if that is the case the attempt of even doing a reading about another person would be a declaratin to ourselves that we are ignorant of the underlying principles and the ordinances of heaven. I mean ignorant in its philosophical sense, not in the insulting sense.

Just to let you know it makes me feel neither better nor worse. It really is irrelevant in that sense. I approach such discussions in the frame that I welcome attempts to "correct" me, it forces me to go back to the basics of my knowledge and understanding, it directs me to apply rational, logical and coherent thought and requires that I am totally honest with myself.

To me there are two parts to any discussions such as these. One part is the search for logical, rational and coherent answers to fundamntal questions, if you like the search for the fundamental, underlying principles and the ordinances of heavenm the search for real knowldge and clarity. The search for the measures, perspective and framework that makes sense of it all.
The other is by the measures of logical, rational and coherent analysis ot reveal if there are things that meet what are a way of examining if something has merit or not. Does soemthing resonate or not.
The second part is perhaps the easiest to evaluate as it highlight limits in ones own understanding, it reveals the tendency that human beings have to fill any sort of unknowing vaccum with a best answer fit. I have pointed out that seems to be the case with 5E and Trigrams, which is not to say that they dont have value, just that the way that we use them makes little or no sense and so as we use them today can hardly be seen as having much value. The beauty of highlighting where there exists a lack of logical, rational and coherent material is that is gives an opportunity for everyone to offer ways to resolve that inconsistency and contradiction. But when one gets no actual resonse that might address and resolve those questions, those observations, one is inclined to get rather suspicious that perhaps there are no answers, that it is a contrivance of someone, the knowledge of the history of the times certainly makes that a distinct possibility.
That is not to say that the Yi does not have an important and special role and is the owrks of the sages and a reflection of the underlying Principles of nature and the ordinances of heaven.

If I didnt know that was the case then I wouldnt be her in the forum at all. And I know that when one breaks walls down one gains a view of much forthere fields than one had before. If the walls are solid then one cannot break them down and they remains rational and coherent.
So I have no problems with any discussions about these matters. I am confident that my arguments are rational and coherent. At the end of the day I am not actually offering any "theories" of waht might lie on the other side of the wall, only pointing out that it looks very much like a wall that has been built by humans and if that is the case then it is not a wall that is partof any underlying principles and it is only part of the cosmos because we put it there, but it is not "natural" and so not part of the understanding of the Yi.
Though if someone wants to actually come up with some rational, logical and coherent answers and explanations as to why the walls of 5E, Trigrams and the other things I have questioned are real and not the construction of human beings then I would of course welcome such responses.

All the best

Dave
 

moss elk

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Sorry to say but I think that perhaps it may be your knots that are tangled.
Ah, you took this personally.
It wasn't personal.
Now you'll likely say I am taking it personally.
So, let's move on from that...

Firstly are you suggesting that a quote someone that amy have written the foreword because they were relatively famous.. as someone who's opinion can be relied on to substantiate an argument.
Sigh...
You think I think I put the quote because they were famous, is your mind really going there?
I put the quote because I felt it relevant and insightful to the question,
and because Jung was very intelligent.

Contemplation of those things is most definitely necessary to benefit from the Yi
You certainly have the right and capability to believe that,
even when it would be contradicted by 90+ % of the experienced diviners here.

It is apparent to me that you would argue until the cows come home.
I'll leave you to yourself to do that.

Good luck.
 
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jukkodave

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Hi Moss Elk

I wasnt intending to be personal in any way. Just responding to your suggestion that "I had tangled a few knots". To me it is just a discussion and a debate in accord with the sticky on how the I ching community works.

But why would you put "sigh" if that wasnt a dergatory and personal comment. But lets put all of that aside.

I do think that you put the quote because they were famous, I questioned the relevance as to someone making comments in a foreword on a subject that they perhaps knew little about. That would seem to leave only their fame as a reason for have a foreword by them. There are certainly plently of other people, perhaps with greater intelligence that could have also written a forward but because they wouldnt be know to the reader of the book they were not asked. In todays world there are plenty of people that part of such oganisations as Mensa and are extrordinarily intelligent but are never asked to write forewards.
So it would seem that the predominant reason for having Jung write a foreward was becuse he was famous.

Where would you be getting the figure of 90+%. And even if it was true that wouldnt validate anything. One could easily come up with all sorts of examples that, at various times in history, that more than 90% have believed in something and it turned out to be wrong. The numbers are not relevant, it is only the knowing and the understanding.

It comes back to the fundamental question of what the Yi is. If it is a book of Wisdom, a representation of the underlying principles of Nature and the Ordinances of Heaven, or whater words one would wish to use to describe such a thing, then the contempation of those things is fundamental and essential to the Yi. If however it is a Book of Oracle then it disnt matter one whoot if one contemplates anything at all. If you are correct that would be suggestive that 90+% are using the Yi without the consideration of the underlying principles. Nothing wrong with that but it does impact on whehther one can be seen as wrong or right and the relevance of if there being 90% is relevant. And what about the 10% are you suggesting that all 10% are wrong and deluded and we they should come over to the "other side". First one would h ave to know and understand what any "sides " were.

I would of course only be able to argue on points and questions that were not clarified and explained in detail in rational, coherent and logical manner. If someone present such arguments then I would and am always delighted. My only goal is for the search for truth and accuracy and so I would be deilighted of someone could present arguments that there is no possibility of arguing against. And it is most certainly possible. But if there are holes in the arguments then unless one is going to implicitly accept them as correct one is almost duty bound to respond.
There is case law in the English Courts that makes this very point and points out that a lack of response or inaccurate response might be taken as meaning something significant and so every attempt should be made for clarity, accuracy and completness. Isnt what we are doing in using the Yi, and be even more requiring of accuracy, clarity and completness than any external construct of society could ever require. Unless of course that one doesnt place that degree of value and importance on the Yi. But if that whas the case I dont think anyone would be bothering responding to me, unless I was hitting raw nerves and the possibility of having belief structures that had no relevance to the Yi were felt to be challenged. But they would be a personal thing to the reader and would not require any sort of response.

I was hopeful that the Yi community would have more knowledge, understanding and insight than the Chinese Medical community had, but it seems that I am getting the same responses form the Yi community. Without getting any actual, detailed responses, everone seems either inclined to give up or try to criticize me in some way.

I am up for vigorous discussion and debate about the Yi. Will someone not join me.

All the best

Dave
 

rosada

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I put the question to the IChing and received 37.2.4-26.
I see this as meaning we should ask for answers that stabilize where we are now (37. Home) and then a glimpse of how far we can see from where we are now (26. Great Taming, which is about moving beyond the home boundaries).
I see this answer as saying “Ask about your immediate future rather than distant future. Ask about your next move rather than your final resting place.”
 

rosada

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"How far of the future should we ask about?"
 

rosada

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It will in the future...

37.2.5 - 26, sorry for the confusion!
 

rosada

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Giving this more thought.

37.1 Home is a safe haven. To see into the Future one must first anchor themselves in the Now, which this hexagram line describes as the place where one feels most at ease, at rest. Be Here Now, it's the safest place to be.
37.5 The king in his castle roof top, viewing his kingdom of safety as far as the eye can see. Perhaps being aware of where the safety zone stops?

26. A circle of friends who share their own experiences from which one can learn.

These two hexagrams together say to me that we can see as far as we can maintain inner calm. Think of the line, "You don't want to know", there are things we couldn't handle it the light came into us too quickly, strongly (2.6). Is the world ready to know just how ineffectual humans are? The King, our core belief in our individual self, our belief that our consciousness survives even as we integrate with the entire Universe of oneness, feels strong and powerful a long as he can feel things are familiar and safe. Beyond that, then our vision into the future becomes distorted by fear of the unknown.We put up barriers to what ever is "Out There" but at the same time this fear walls us off from being able to see what is out there, to see the future.

So, 37 says the home and family is that which is understood and protected so maybe as an answer to how far should we ask into the future, this means questions about the immediate future for our immediate environment are easier to understand. But beyond that although we want to know about The Unknown, our core Fear of The Unknown distorts our perception. Does 26 advise that as we strengthen our communication with our friends and neighbors and share together, we get a clearer vision of what is ahead, because there most likely there will be someone in the group who is not afraid to say, "The King has no pants on" and this will wake everyone up, we'll see where were headed and what probable future lies ahead, but first we have to be able to handle the truth. Fighting amongst each other creates discord in the emotions making it difficult to receive a clear picture. Discord amongst the friends and neighbors makes the airwaves fuzzy and the Vision fizzy - and hard to interpret. So again, to see the future depends on ones ability to handle it, both handling see what the future is, and also being able to handle the ability to see the future.

We can see farther into the future with subjects that feel safe and familiar.
When we ask about more distant subjects we can look to our environment for answers, what is happening to my neighbors is most likely happening to me soon too.
If I can keep calm and participate in larger group gatherings I will come to be able to intuit even the far distant future.
They walk among us...The future is Now.
 

jukkodave

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The question is how far of the future should "we" ask about.

Unless we know what the Yi is, unless we know how the Yi works, unless we know the how's, why's and what's we cannot "know" if it is even possible to ask about anyone other than ones self.

Of course one can "ask" but without knowing what the Yi is and how and why it works then we have no way of evaluating the "answer " we recieve. No way of knowing if it is even possible to tap into a universal Cosmos that might give answers to fundamental questions or gove answers that involve anyone else.

I have no intention of criticising Rosada's interpretation of her reading, It is her reading and means what it means to her. But to me it means a completely different thing.
Is that perhaps because my perspective is different as to what the question might actually be asking,
I have raised in another thread the possibility that the methods that permit one to observe to evolution of a Hexagram has, from what is known from scientific understanding, the potential to "influence" a reading. I avoided bring this complexity into the discussion at that time, but how much more of a potential influence are our beliefs and our knowledge and understanding of the Yi going to be in any reading we do.

The "book" of Changes is an inanimate object, it has no inherent power or consciousness in its own right. It is our connection with ourselves to whatever the Yi is, that is the fundamental consideration. What we think and believe, as well as what we know and understand, about any part of the Yi, and why and how it works is going to influence any reading.

If we dont think that we can understand what the Yi is then that is going to set a "boundary" on our understanding and how we interpret any reading as well as the reading we will get in the first place.

From just about any perspective on what the Yi is, one can see that a reading about the future is going to refelect that persons, need or ability to know the future. That is going to be different for every individual. Is it then possible to ask the question, "we" rather than "I".

Just so everyone knows I am being absolutely serious I did a reading as to whether I should bother continuing with any discussions on the Forum and the reading came back a most definite "perseverence furthers".

All the best

Dave
 

hmesker

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Just so everyone knows I am being absolutely serious I did a reading as to whether I should bother continuing with any discussions on the Forum and the reading came back a most definite "perseverance furthers".
'Perseverance furthers' is a somewhat outdated reading of 利貞 but saying this will probably open up a whole other can of worms. It might be best to share the actual reading that you got and tell which translation/interpretation you used to arrive at your conclusion.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Harmon

Could you provide the translation of 利貞 so that all that dont read Chinese know what you are referring to.

I dont think you are getting what I am saying. A reading is a personal thing. For all the reasons that I have given I wouldnt attempt to interpret someone elses reading, and nor would I trust the interpretation, and judgement, of any reading that I did to anyone else unless I knew what their perspective on what the Yi is, and had first been made clear.

I would say that unless you could demonstrate, in a rational, logical and coherent way that it is even possible to comprehend what another persons reading means, unless there is some kind of agreed "connection" that might enable that to happen, on one level at least and if a person was happy with that particular level then the reading they got would be most appropriate. I couldnt think of a better word than level but I dont mean it in the sense that one level might be better than another only that the impact it has on the intepreation of the reading would be significantly different. I think I have made that clear from other posts in other threads.

Regardless of the exactitudes of and Sinological considerations of "perseverence furthers. The meaning in the context is relevant.
But I would point out that only if there were underlying principles that made the need or relevance for any translation to be accurate would it matter. Only if the Yi was not just another divinatory tool like all the others and only if it was special in its own right because of its underlying principles would it matter if the translation was correct or not. And then of course if the underlying principles are known and understood ot wouldnt matter one little jot as to the "accuracy" of the translation as the "essence" of the Hexagrams would be understood.

Which perspective would you be taking in the "interpretation" of my reading. Can you speak for anyone else and declare that they have the same perspective and understanding, and that the interpreatations of my reading would all concur in the same way. I think that is highly unlikely.

Even if I was not to publish "my "reading to everyone on the Forum but posted it to you privately, what good would that do. I think that the fact that we dont seem to agree on some very fundamental issues would suggest that your interpretation of my reading might be one that I would not be able to put any store by. And I certainly have no intention of be "judged" by anyone that hasnt declared what their understanding if the Yi to be.

I know what my reading is, I have an understanding of what the Yi is, what the Hexagrams mean, how they are constructed, why they have solid and broken lines, what the positions of the lines mean. That understanding provides a rational, coherent and logical ftamework and understanding and when combined with my own personal, direct experience give me confidence in what the reading means for me. The essence reamins undisturbed by any sinological considerations, at least to me.

The problem with my understanding is that it may reveal that what is thought and considered to be of value about the Yi, the hexgrams, the Trigrams, 5E is either not of any value because the system is a contrived one or becuase the "understanding of what we think we know is so far away from reality that it is not only not illuminating any truths that the Yi might have to reveal but is also leading us astray from any truths.
Or there is the possibility I am completely wrong on all counts. I have to be open to all possibilities and until I actually "know" for myself, all of the relevant parts, then I have to, in accord with the principles of the Forum, to be declaring "not knowing".

The application of rational, logical and coherent argument is a very powerful tool indeed as even if it cannot illuminate is with direct knowing in itself the "walls" of inconsitency, contradiction and the possibility of seeing things from another perspective can mean that when we knock down those walls that we have new vistas to explore and that can be the experience that illuminates us. If a wall hets knocked downnad it has solid foundations it will, because this is a "natural " wall, will rebuild itself again. So no problems with asking difficult questions, of examiining other possibilities, if the wall is natural and solid it will take all the logical, rational and coherent bashing and stand intact and if it does fall and rises again that would tell us something important about that paticular wall.

I shared the fact that I am being genuine, I didnt even have to say that but there seems to be a suspicion that I am being something other than genuine. If that was the case it would have been easy to dispel all of my questions, points and observation with straight forward argument. I just wanted everyone to know that I am being genuine, even to the point of coinsdering if I was upsetting to many on the Forum, it is hard work for me and not particularly plaeasant to be faced with what seems to be so much negativity and ignores the basics of my arguments ,and so I asked the Yi for guidance. The resonse was to continue, no fault. The details of what the reading was are not anyone concern, the intention though is of course and I shared that my intention was honest and genuine.

All the best

Dave
 

hmesker

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Could you provide the translation of 利貞 so that all that dont read Chinese know what you are referring to.
"Beneficial to divine." See https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/The-Yijing-as-oracle-bone�s-sidekick-Harmen-Mesker.pdf as well as the works of Edward Shaughnessy about this.

dont think you are getting what I am saying. A reading is a personal thing. For all the reasons that I have given I wouldnt attempt to interpret someone elses reading, and nor would I trust the interpretation, and judgement, of any reading that I did to anyone else unless I knew what their perspective on what the Yi is, and had first been made clear.
As usual you are making this way more complicated than it is. All I wanted to know is what answer you exactly got from the Yijing - which hexagram, moving lines if you had any, and which translation or interpretation you used during your reading.
 

jukkodave

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I realised that I am actually really annoyed that anyone asked me for a copy of "my"reading.

Implicit in that asking is that I cannot be trusted to evaluate my own readings or that I am less knowledgable than others and that others have some kind of greater "authority" than I do, with which to "interpret" my readings, better than I can. If there was no suggestion of it being a "better" interpretation there would be no need to ask what someone elses reading was. It is different if someone wants another perspective or is puzzled by their reading, but I never said that. My reading was perfectly clear and unambiguous. So why would I need anyone elses "judgement" on my reading. And why would anyone ask for it.

By what criteria would anyone determine who is the greater authority. Is it by "learnt" knowledge, is it by direct personal experience, is it the person themselves that is accessing their own inner understanding.
Who of those, assuming there are not other possibilites, would be a greater "authority" on understanding another persons reading.
That is entirely different to the authority inherent in the scholastic, academic worls, of which we might all agree there are some very knowledgable people contibuting to the Forum. But the underlying question is does that have any relevance to the use of the Yi. Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesnt, perhaps it does in some ways, to some parts, but until we address the questions of the reasons and functions of the Yi and can be confident that we understand why and how it works and why and how we use it, we have no measures, nor framework to determine who is an authority and who might possibly just be a very learned and erudite bag of wind, or not, depending on the obvious questions that need to be addressed first, and so the very learned and erudite amogst the community might the very people that we should be deferring to on all counts.

But it is the implied assumption that I dont know how to understand my own reading and that someone else might have a way of better understanding and the implicitness that means that I am ignoratnt and others are not, that really annoyed me, as it misses the whole points in my posts and suggest that they are not being read properly or that perhaps they are not being understood, or perhaps the questions are to disturbing and cahllenging and there are no answers to the points I am raising, with all the consequences that arise from that conclusion.

Given that the entire thrust of my posts is the discussion of these very things, I find it almist insulting that anyone would even consider asking such a thing. All credit to Harmon for actually acting out what a suspect others would be thinking, just to make it clear that there is nothing personal about his asking. Although I amy be misjudging others and so not wanting to make any assumptions I will leave it to others to say if they consider the interpreatation of someone elses reading, without declaring their perspectives on what they consider the Yi, to be something that is correct or even possible to do. If no one comes forward to support him it might be seen as just his needs to be satisfied.

All the best to everyone

Dave
 

hmesker

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I realised that I am actually really annoyed that anyone asked me for a copy of "my"reading.
Dave, I was just curious what hexagram you got from the Yijing and which version of the book you used. It is quite acceptable to ask for that on a forum that has these things as its subject. Suppose this was a baking forum and you said, "I just made a delicious apple pie according to the recipe of my great-great-grandmother and it was delicious!" Would you be insulted if others asked you for the recipe and assume that the only reason they asked for it was to tell you that you read the recipe all wrong?
 

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