how to approach him? 39.4.6 > 33

[legume]

i have this friend who's a lawyer and a pretty good one but few years back we had a pretty bad falling out. about a year after that we ran into each other in a bar and he greeted me as if nothing happened, so later i sent him best new years wishes. the friendship is nowhere near where it used to be, but half a year ago when i messaged him casually asking how he's doing he seemed quite eager to answer and share more about his current situation. i then offered to meet up for a drink but was met with silence, so i just let it be. i might be in need of legal advise soon and i think he's the kind of guy who's always willing to help out but i wouldn't want to abuse this, i'd be happy to pay. i'm just really not sure how to approach him at this stage nor how to fix the friendship.

i also feel kind of stupid reaching out again, since the last time he didn't answer my offer to meet. times were different though as mid covid in winter everything was closed (gluhwein was doable though ), now it should be possible to at least meet and sit outside. i'm quite confused about the advise of this cast. before i asked i thought maybe i can suggest to go together to the mountains nearby for a day, make a trip and have a proper catch up. both trigrams contain the image of a mountain and i wonder if this, among others, could be the meaning of retreat here.

seems like it would be worth the trouble to somehow reach out to him, even if just re. the legal matters and then if he chooses to retreat again, that's fine too. always a bit confused about the coming vs going of 39. in line 4 going is impassable, coming back leads to union. well, i'll be coming back (to my country), but not sure if that's enough to persuade him to talk? line 6 and seeing the great man or maturity... really not sure if either of us reached maturity at this point, but i guess, i can only hope so. how would you read this?

 

[marybluesky]

According to Bradford:

39.4: if going is impassable, then coming back means alliance;
39.6: if going is impassable, then coming back means maturity.
Promising
Rewarding to encounter s mature human being.

I see 33 as the context of your question: the long time retreat. The reading encourages you to get closer to this man, now with more maturity.

 

[redoleander]

how to approach him? 39.4.6 > 33​

Since the question was "how", I think this could be suggesting you either catch up, fall back on old times or enjoyments, or directly address the past quarrel if some part of it could still be further processed. It's not time yet to bring up the future advice you seek but could be possible later on. I also thought there could be a layer of keeping it simple, such as having him over to your home or a place he associates with you/is already familiar to him ("coming" rather than "going").

I'm a beginner, just wanted to give it a shot.

I also saw this Line 6 commentary:
"Wu: His goals are directed inward. He can get his advices from the highly placed."
This made me think it could be opposite of what I said and that it's better to just directly ask for the help you want. )

(Honestly though the references to being "stationary" did throw me! My initial impression was that you might actually be better off leaving things be for now, perhaps even letting him eventually come to you. As I read deeper, I came up with the above... I'll be curious to hear what others say.)


this is what I used:

Line 4

Legge: The fourth line, magnetic, shows its subject advancing, but only to greater difficulties. She remains stationary, and unites with the line above.

Line four is magnetic, and though in her proper place, she can do very little by herself. She is immediately below the king or great man however, and cultivates her loyal attachment, waiting for the time when she shall be required to act.

Line 6

Legge: The sixth line, magnetic, shows its subject going forward, only to increase the difficulties, while her remaining stationary will be productive of great merit. There will be good fortune, and it will be advantageous to meet with the great man.

 

[legume]

thank you both.

Legge: The fourth line, magnetic, shows its subject advancing, but only to greater difficulties. She remains stationary, and unites with the line above.

i rarely look up Legge but in this case the mention of the relation between line 4 and 3 feels useful. 3 is yang, 4 is yin. 3 is dynamic, 4 is megnetic. i'm the female (4) and need his (3) help, so i need to draw him closer somehow and hopefully he'll respond and help. still not sure about the how. and although 3 is not part of the reading, the relation between the lines gives me hope he'll want to reconnect with his "former associates", simply by his dynamic nature.

I see 33 as the context of your question: the long time retreat. The reading encourages you to get closer to this man, now with more maturity.

i also see 33 could be the background here, we've been retreating for long enough. not sure how to go about the maturity bit. it seems inappropriate somehow to just reach out and say that i might need his help and ask him how much he charges, though after looking at the lines pathway... 31.6 kinda tells me that beating around the bush is not the way to go and maybe best to be quite forward, actually. otoh, 31.6 doesn't say good fortune or misfortune, maybe trying to influence him first by "superficial talk" could work? i'd rather stick to my gut feeling though and probably say straight what's up and what i need, while offering to catch up as well... he did help me once already, after the quarrel, with free tax advice, hence i feel extra awkward bothering him again but it seems business is what he responds to best. and this time i actually do mean business and not just picking his brain.

i also looked at the nuclear hex with the same lines, not sure if it's a popular practice but it worked for me before and this is an important reading to me. 64.4 tells me that at its core asking him for help again might actually help fix the friendship. as to 64.6, well that's a really good advice, as anytime we'd go out together i got pissed (he's a gentleman and would continue buying me drinks but later always walked me home and never made a move though he mentioned many times he wished he had). so "don't drink too much" could also touch on the "maturity" part, maybe.

any other ideas as to how to actually approach him are very much welcome. thanks!

 

[marybluesky]

So it was 39.4.6 to 33,
or 31.4.6 to 53?

And what's the main reason you've asked the I Ching about approaching him? Legal help or friendship?

 

[legume]

it was 39.4.6 > 33. the line pathway is 31.6 (leading to 33), which i know is not part of the reading but it often helps me with understanding the cast better. i asked how to approach him because i do or will need legal help, hopefully. i'm not sure yet, it depends on the offer (it's about buying a place and if i do, i'd need him to review the contract before i sign, so kind of need him on standby). i do trust he's the right man to help, i'm just not sure how to ask him since our friendship's been strained and i'd wish we were in a better place friendship-wise too.

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing 39.4.6 - 33 as describing your legal situation and your sense that you might not be able to move forward with it without some professional counsel. Therefore, as advice for how to approach your friend I think it suggests you not bring up any of the personal issues but simply contact him saying, "I may be needing some legal advice concerning X. Is this the sort of thing you handle?"

 

[Viru10]

The times I get 39 with changing lines it usually has indicated something doesn't come to fruition with the object of inquiry- asked in the context of a relationship and job interview. The lines of 39 pretty much all indicate staying put, rather than going forward. Instead of racing on to 'fix' something it may be better to stay in place, from my perspective 33 confirms this.

Not sure what the friendship situation is, but it may seem a bit forward to renew the friendship just so you can rush to the legal advice part? If I were him I might perceive that as someone using me for that aspect- not saying that's what you're doing here. If you already were friendly with him then asked about legal advice it probably would be fine, but here I think rushing straight into the legal situation may be a problem hence 39.

As a side note I've often heard it's a bad idea to go into business with friends. Not sure about your country, I'm in the US and here lawyers will bill you for literally every word you exchange with them. So the fees rack up fast.

Not sure about the friendship, but 39.4.6>33 doesn't seem to indicate it's necessarily doable right now? That's my thoughts on it at least.

 

[legume]

thanks again for more food for thought.

I think it suggests you not bring up any of the personal issues but simply contact him

that's pretty much my gut feeling re. this cast. i also came across this thread that explains better the idea of going and coming as well as LiSe's article here. so i guess drawing from the past is a no-go in this situation, it's best to look into the future.

initially i thought it would be good to give him a headsup i'm coming over and what my plans are and that i might need his help, now i'm wondering if maybe it'll turn out it's not even the best time to invest, so i'll probably leave contacting him as a last resort, for when i'm certain i will actually need his help.

i might be overthinking all this, but it's about a lot of money and making plans for the future, plans that will most likely affect the rest of my life. i will also have only few weeks to sort it all out and if i do get an offer there's only about a week to figure out the legal matters, hence i'm stressing out about it already and thought it's maybe best to make sure he knows upfront i might need his help within this timeframe. but after reading up more on lines of 39 i think it could be ok to just leave it until i'm sure what my actual plans are going to be, rather than drop this uncertainty on him as well.

If you already were friendly with him then asked about legal advice it probably would be fine, but here I think rushing straight into the legal situation may be a problem hence 39.

ehh, i know, i'm confused about this quite a bit, hence this thread well, i was friendly with him, last time i was over in my country i asked him how he's doing, i followed up with him before that as well, both times he was quick to respond, but the 2nd time he didn't answer my offer to meet. i didn't want to push it. don't think it will be a good idea to mention the fact he turned me down then but also no need for me to hold a grudge, so i guess the best option is to be honest and upfront and contact him only when i'm already there. knowing i might need his help, it just doesn't seem sincere though to ask again to meet first just to catch up. and since he didn't respond to it before, i'm thinking it's best to adopt more of a matter-of-fact approach...

As a side note I've often heard it's a bad idea to go into business with friends. Not sure about your country, I'm in the US and here lawyers will bill you for literally every word you exchange with them. So the fees rack up fast.

it's not business per se, i mean more like using his service once and asking about his rates, though knowing him this could potentially be done at a flat fee if not free, not sure. but i'd trust him more not to screw me over than getting any lawyer at a short notice, which is what i'd be afraid of when using a service of someone i don't know.

 

[rosada]

I can see interpreting 33 as meaning hold off on approaching him until you're sure you need his advice but just on a purely practical level is it wise to put off looking for a lawyer until you're absolutely sure you need one? Besides, it's a nice excuse for contacting him. And by contacting him now you're not leaning on the friendship like you might appear to be if you had to email him, "I know we haven't been in contact for ages but this is an emergency so drop everything and help me!" Besides, what have you got to lose? He's not in contact with you now anyway...

 

[legume]

thank you rosada for the voice of reason, indeed seems like the best way to go
i also have some other ideas based on another, seemingly unrelated reading, but will see how it all goes and i'll update this in a month or so.

 

[ZeroPoint]

thank you rosada for the voice of reason, indeed seems like the best way to go
i also have some other ideas based on another, seemingly unrelated reading, but will see how it all goes and i'll update this in a month or so.

I've been plugging along looking at questions and advice about asking them. Somewhere I got the idea that asking "how" is bad framing, because it presumes that you should. If you already have made up your mind, without asking something like, "Yi, what can you tell me about this situation?" then I'd expect a difficult answer. A walk through your assumptions in the above posts is suggestive: you want something, but you haven't asked if it's good for you, and I get the sense there's a huge unstated assumption. Maybe more than one?

 

[legume]

Somewhere I got the idea that asking "how" is bad framing, because it presumes that you should.

i see your point and i'll definitely consider it more in my future casts. this time however it was more of a "how to approach him (if i actually do)", there's no assumption that i will or that i should, though definitely something i considered while thinking it's possibly the best option, especially regarding legal stuff.

with the help of people here as well as another reading i did previously i'm now thinking i might have better options, but again, only time will tell how the situation unravels.

as to more assumptions, well, my gut feeling was telling me actually i shouldn't approach him at all and been withdrawing for a reason but then there is both curiosity and concern as to how's he doing, as i still consider him a friend, as well as probably wanting to mend this situation somehow (though i'm starting to think it's not really viable).

 

[diamant]

how to approach him? 39.4.6 > 33
I'm afraid I'll agree, it doesn't sound very viable.
You want to take things forward with him, but 39.4 and 39.6 and 33 all advise to back off.
Especially asking him for a day trip to the mountains, after such a long fall-out, with an aim of both love and business, sounds quite impossible, as he doesn't sound romantically interested from the way you describe the situation.

 

[legume]

You want to take things forward with him, but 39.4 and 39.6 and 33 all advise to back off.

i don't see how 39.4.6 says to back off, i think there's some limping or misstepping or generally trouble when "going" or drawing from the past (wang) but both lines bode well for "coming" or returning (lai).
line 4 speaks of union or alliance, line 6 mentions good fortune and seeing a great man. when it comes to legal issues, i think he's pretty great. not a romantic interest though. there was the thought of fixing the friendship at the back of my mind, but again, seems like it's not a good idea after all (btw, the fall-out lasted about a year of not speaking, while we've known each other for over 20 years and been pretty close friends for over a decade).

 

[Olga Super Star]

Hi Legume

I always interpreted "coming" as coming back from the idea. Not going, but coming. So I would say myself that it's not a real push to contact this person with a 33 in the back.
I shall appreciate an update when it's time!

 

[rosada]

Digging into these lines a bit more deeply...
I look at the sequence and see 37. as the family, then 38. as the siblings who grow up and go off on their own in different directions and then 39. as the obstructions that come when one goes off like this because one can only go so far on their own (see 38.6, all alone and going crazy) and the lines of 39. describe the need to come back so thus we have...
39.1 Going on alone meets with obstruction so coming (back) meets with praise.
39.2 Sometimes it’s your job so you do have to deal with obstructions.
39.3 And again going on leads to obstructions so he comes back.
So we see with the lower mountain trigram of 39 there’s quite a feeling that you just can’t get past this block, this mountain, without help.

39.4 Now it says coming (back) leads to union. So how might this apply to the question? Does it refer to the court case as the obstacle and you need to come back and get your friend to help you deal with it? Then 39.6 could be saying coming back to your friend for his legal skills (Great man!) would lead to great good fortune.

So I’m thinking as to how to approach your friend I see these lines as saying emphasize that you are contacting him for his legal expertise. Perhaps 33. means the matter will never go so far that you need a lawyer, but 39.6 sure makes me think it wouldn’t hurt to get his advice.

 

[rosada]

I was just reading the comments about hexagram 39. Obstruction over in the Memorizing threads in Exploring Divination. Interesting ideas about 39 pointing to energies building to a great intensity and talk about the trigrams of water over mountain symbolizing fog as in misunderstanding and brain fog. Anyway, good read but does seem to argue now is not the time to take action - but also not to give up.

 

[legume]

in the end i didn't approach him, as there was no need to. didn't get the place i hoped (the developer disclosed plans for the surrounding terrain and i didn't want to live there anymore), so staying put for now.
i think the advise was to divert from the original plan of reaching out before there was any contract for the guy to review or even look at. maybe also some foresight that things generally won't go as i imagined (i feel like i'm back to 33 at the moment).

i also mentioned another reading that i had cast prior to this one that gave me some ideas. i was really stressed before travelling and asked Yi what's that about, it answered with 42.3 > 37. i took 37 as going to see my family as well as the whole house hunting that was doing my head in. with 42.3 i had no idea, other than i was to attend a funeral. then it dawned on me i might get to see a friend from childhood there. i remembered she is also a lawyer. and indeed, we ran into each other, which opened a possibility for reconnecting maybe sometime in the future.