How to toss the coins

[kts]

I haven't read the whole of the foregoing discussion, but hope I've got the gist of it - I hope the following is relevant.
I've just asked a question today (by coin tossing) where I thought the most relevant answer, given the situation, would probably be a version of H53 - not 'predicting' the answer, but just expecting it to be something of the sort, just as you might when consulting a parent or friend about the problem.
As the lines built up it looked increasingly likely that this would indeed be the answer. As I threw the last line, I thought, "It doesn't necessarily have to come out as you expect". The top line was a moving yin line, making the primary hexagram no. 39, and the resultant one no. 53! What process was going on here? Making the 'best fit' surely comes after receiving the hexagram, not before. Chris Lofting has probably already covered this, but I'm afraid I haven't had time to wade through all his material, as interesting as it is.

 

[kts]

'Wade through all his material' - no disrespect intended - it's just a long read, and takes time to digest.

 

[arien]

Hey Kts,

I have noticed, many many times, that whenever I can "guess" what hexagram will come out it ususally gores my expectations. For me its hard not to think of the possible outcomes as I build the lines up, and when I'm drawing the 6th line I get that effect you describe often, like by simply thinking that you know what the last line will be, you disrupt the randomness and it falls the other way round. I often get a changing line at the top when this happens, like the yi is saying "ok, Im not gonna let you have your way, but here's a compromise"

Expanding on this thought, and since the 6th line is the realm of god (heaven), I think that many times it is worth changing the last line to see what would we get if the gods were favoring us more. For instance, say I want to get 50, then at the 6th line the Yi pulls the rug and I get a 6 (32.6->50). This is a bad line, but you can think that if you change your heavenly side, if you tune in to god so they favor your intentions, you wouldnt get this line but a 9 (50.6, a very good line)

In any case its worth changing the 6th line to see what would you get (and the 6th line sometimes makes a huge difference in the quality of the reading) if you were more in-tune with god . This isnt sucha hard line to change, either, doesnt take physical effort of any sort, only a heart's effort and thats it... the gods can forgive us in the snap of a finger if we just correct our hearts)

 

[arien]

Chris, I've started replying you several times, but I dont know where to start, nor where to finish, and actually not what to say in the middle...

I'm still interested in your work, as always, but I dont see a point in disagreeing with you. Im not head into the materials you use as ground, and you dont seem to be willing to look at things from a more prosaic side.

But that offer to buy you a drink is still up

 

[kts]

Yes, Arien, it does very often happen that expectations are overturned on line 6. However, I was pleased that my expectations were confirmed, rather than challenged - I did get H53, even though not as first hexagram. I've had H39 in this context a number of times before and line 6 is a rather good line.

 

[chrislofting]

Kts,

The 'best fit' is already determined from the first line - iow toss coins and you already cut out 32 hexagrams, and then cut out 16, and then a further 8 etc etc Thus the process allows you to see where you are going and so even 'predict' what is coming.

The 'best fit' HEXAGRAM will come up 1 time in 64 from the beginning -IOW prior to considering any particular derivation process. Using the three-coin derivation process, throw the first coin pattern and the base line chance is 1 in 2 so a good chance of getting the 'best fit' base line. The chance NOW for deriving the 'best fit' *hexagram* is 1 in 32. The chance of deriving the best fit's second line is still 1 in 2. If derived then the chance of getting the best fit is now 1 in 16, and so on. If the first line is NOT that of the 'best fit' then I am off into a different area and from that position there is NO CHANCE of getting the 'best fit' but some chance of getting the variation on the best fit - e.g. I could get 24 rather than the best fit of 02. Since there is a strong 'variations on a theme' aspect present here, so the brain will 'fill in the dots' and force interpretation of the 24 as if it really is the 'best fit'.

The ancient perspective has been on the importance of that first line and you can see here their reasoning in that you cut off 50% of hexagrams if you get that 'wrong'.

The coin toss method is incremental rather than immediate. IOW if I have a pool of 64 hexagrams and I have ONE step to extract ONE hexagram then the chance is 1 in 64. If I use an incremental process, line by line building, then I have 1 in 2 chance for each LINE and at the end the SUM of the lines gives me a hexagram.

The Yarrow Stick method is complex enough to introduce a bias where the overall focus is on the yin state overall. From a historic perspective this is valid in that the 10th century BC was more reactive than proactive. Thus modern culture is more 'me' oriented and so more valid to 50/50 coin tosses -- UNLESS the life of the individual, the local context, is more 'yin' oriented such that the yarrow stick method will work (note the bandwidth/time relationships here, a collective high in bandwidth is more NOW oriented, lower the bandwidth and ritual etc (time) takes over for generation of patterns)

The questions method focuses on the most likely nature of each *line* rather than leaving it to chance - IOW there is a built-in bias where the user's local knowledge is included in the process and so reflection on each line is carefully considered. THAT inclusion has a better chance of deriving the true 'best fit' *consistantly* - which is my point in that with that consistancy comes the sequences of hexagrams that will reflect the WHOLE situation from best to worst fit and each hexagram contributes some aspect of the whole. You dont NEED the full sequence in that you can work off the 'best fit' but in doing so need to recognise that some details are missing, details that may aid in fathoming the situation.

Now, the use of 'random' processes allow you to come up with some aspect of the WHOLE you may not have considered. For example, you may get the 35th hexagram in the best fit to worst fit sequence. Particular aspects of that hexagram WILL be applicable to the situation but those aspects are PARTS of the greater whole, the IC.

The 'traditional' perspectives are focused on ONE hexagram reflecting a moment and that is not correct. There is a BIAS at the local level that fits best to one over the others but all of the others also have their 2c worth of input.

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

Arien,

The hexagrams are generated to form into PAIRS. The relationships of those pairs is identified by the TOP line. e.g. hex 02 and 23 are a pair. 02 reflects unconditional devotion, 23 reflects conditional devotion (pruning). The PAIRS are covered in the binary ordering.

See such pages as http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html

The derivation method is represented in the diagram:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/btree.gif

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

oops...

for changing line patterns applied to trigrams/hexagrams so the chances per line are 1 in 4, not 1 in 2. For rigid hexagram derivation (A OR B, no middle) it is 1 in 2.

These changing line patterns in fact reflect the expression of a single dodecagram where each hexagram is a compression of 64 dodecagrams into one form. The 'pure' compression is one particular dodecagram that compresses to one hexagram as in:

110011110011 to 101101.

The other 63 are symbolised as 101101 with changing lines. thus the dodecagram of 110011110010 compresses into 10110x where x represents the compression of 10 to be a yang line changing into yin.

Chris.

 

[jte]

"For me its hard not to think of the possible outcomes as I build the lines up..."

Definitely feel the same tendency to predict what I'm going to get. I end up saying to myself, around the fourth or fifth line, "just let it tell you the truth, don't interfere". Kind of takes some mental discipline.

Arien your idea of examining the 6th line is interesting, I'll have to try that next time I feel this and get a moving top line...

- Jeff

 

[chrislofting]

Jeff,

as I pointed out to Arien, each hexagram is a member of a pair of hexagrams where their pairness is distinguised by their sameness other than the top line.

Remove the top line and the pair are reflecting the same thing. The top line then differentiates between a differentiating perspective vs an integrating perspective.

Thus hexagram 02 has a top line of yin and so integrating, holistic, group, focus. Its associate has a top line of yang (hex 23) and so a differentiating, partial, individual focus.

The general devotion of 02 reflects an unconditional and so total, holistic, attitude of devotion. In 23 the focus is particular, on the individual's pruning of the 'weeds' to reveal the true faith. BUT what is the 'true' faith is up to the individual and so the focus is on CONDITIONAL devotion.

When we move to a more light/dark interpretation so 02 is total darkness whereas 23 reflects the last element of structure prior to that collapse and so again a particular.

From a development perspective the path from 02 to 23 reflects the path of faith from its total u conditional state to a development of 'weeds' that eventually are in need of pruning.

Thus focusing on one hexagram and then changing its top line will give you the other half of the story, that which shares the same lines from 1 to 5.

To map out the pairs see the binary ordering in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html Once you understand the general binary format so out come all of the other sequences of hexagrams that eventually allow one to pair ALL hexagrams in all combinations and they will 'say' something.

Chris.

 

[hilary]

Chris, is the 'pair' that differ by just their top line more closely thematically connected in your book than those that differ by any other single line?
(Replies in the form of links are fine by me

)

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Hilary,

> By Hilary (Hilary) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:48 am:
>
> Chris, is the 'pair' that differ by just their top line
> more closely thematically connected in your book than those
> that differ by any other single line?


From the perspective of the 'natural' derivation process, the recursion of yin/yang, yes. You can also derive other sequences that bring out patterns in pairs related by different lines. The closeness is in sharing the general context from general to particular.

Thus the binary sequence is made-up of level 6 of recursion of yin/yang that gives us 32 pairs, where the elements of each pair reflect differentiating vs integrating perspectives of the general theme introduced at level 5. These perspectives map to synonyms to the differentiate/integrate dichotomy, E.g. at the other end of the scale, 43 is about spreading the word and so integrating (top line yin) whereas hex 01 is more 'singleminded' in its self-devotion, more differentiating (top line yang). But BOTH are overally differentiating due to the yang base line as well as all of the other yang lines.

These patterns reflect the movement in hexagram derivation from bottom to top, from general to particular. Thus there are 32 hexagrams that share the bottom line and are overall 'yin' oriented. These can map to the 32 to share the bottom line as yang. Thus if the only difference is the bottom line so the hexagrams reflect variations on a theme from the GENERAL perspective as compared to the variations on a theme with only the top line difference.

The top and bottom line variations form quartets of meaning - see the page http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html and work through the table at the bottom where these sorts of patterns are covered.

Chris.