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I Ching = demons and price to pay?

Mylife

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I all, I want to share a story with you and to get your view about something that came to my mind recently.

I discovered the I Ching back in 2014 from my best friend. She shared this with me during a difficult period in our lives - we both broke up after a long unhealthy relationship. (Not sure who told her about the book). Since I read and I tried to learn about the readings and interpretations of the questions I ask (I am not an expert). I use the I Ching when I am stuck in a difficult situation and I need an insight or when I get anxious about a certain subject and I want a hint about the future.

Recently, talking with my husband about the I Ching and the consult I made, he made me think about one point:
- these “supernatural” ways of getting hints can be dangerous because those divinations who give us the answers can be demons. And demons feed on our energy and souls.
- he also brought up that demons rarely give something for free and there might be a price to pay for every casts we make and answers we receive.
(I m not saying he is right - I am just sharing what my husband and I were talking about).

He saw some witchcrafts, dark magic, tarots readings, spirit possessions, when he was a kid. Many years ago women used to make use of these kind of ways to obtain answers. Perhaps now a days less or maybe less known.
Anyway, since then he believes that these kind of supernatural things are not good energy but the opposite.

I was not aware of this and it did not cross my mind before.

99% of the times the I Ching was accurate with me. And the answers were spot on. I was helped and I got insights about how my present can change, how my future might look like, what to do if I wanted something, etc etc. I am sure you know what I talk about, we all get that.

Hence now I asked myself
a) “the answers we get from the I Ching is given by demons? That means we communicate with them?
b) Do we need to pay a price later in life? Are we actually paying the price right now in the presente and we don’t realise?”
c) are we doing something we are not supposed to do and there will be consequences on us or people we love?

has anyone asked themselves these questions? What’s your opinion about it?
 

moss elk

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Your husband speaks like he has extensive and expert knowledge on the subject of demonology.

But, he doesn't really, does he?
No, he doesn't.

I mean, he has understandable (based on his history) but irrational fears about something he really doesn't know anything about.

Pose this question to him:
"How do you judge if a human being is good or evil?"

Answer: the proof is in their actions/intentions and the fruit of them.

Yi (a poem written by human beings) has been giving good (Life supporting & affirming) advice for 3000+ years.

There is the pudding. (Evidence)
It's all the proof one needs.

I can personally testify that Yi has given me invaluable advise over the years.
It has helped me safely navigate dangerous people and situations, and has helped to bring many positive transformations in my life.
 
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surnevs

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I all, I want to share a story with you and to get your view about something that came to my mind recently.

I discovered the I Ching back in 2014 from my best friend. She shared this with me during a difficult period in our lives - we both broke up after a long unhealthy relationship. (Not sure who told her about the book). Since I read and I tried to learn about the readings and interpretations of the questions I ask (I am not an expert). I use the I Ching when I am stuck in a difficult situation and I need an insight or when I get anxious about a certain subject and I want a hint about the future.

Recently, talking with my husband about the I Ching and the consult I made, he made me think about one point:
- these “supernatural” ways of getting hints can be dangerous because those divinations who give us the answers can be demons. And demons feed on our energy and souls.
- he also brought up that demons rarely give something for free and there might be a price to pay for every casts we make and answers we receive.
(I m not saying he is right - I am just sharing what my husband and I were talking about).

He saw some witchcrafts, dark magic, tarots readings, spirit possessions, when he was a kid. Many years ago women used to make use of these kind of ways to obtain answers. Perhaps now a days less or maybe less known.
Anyway, since then he believes that these kind of supernatural things are not good energy but the opposite.

I was not aware of this and it did not cross my mind before.

99% of the times the I Ching was accurate with me. And the answers were spot on. I was helped and I got insights about how my present can change, how my future might look like, what to do if I wanted something, etc etc. I am sure you know what I talk about, we all get that.

Hence now I asked myself
a) “the answers we get from the I Ching is given by demons? That means we communicate with them?
b) Do we need to pay a price later in life? Are we actually paying the price right now in the presente and we don’t realise?”
c) are we doing something we are not supposed to do and there will be consequences on us or people we love?

has anyone asked themselves these questions? What’s your opinion about it?

Demons are a religious thing. I Ching is not religious. The same way thoughts can mislead us the same way misunderstanding the text of the I Ching can confuse us. Believing that demons lurk behind the text could roughly be called paranoia and yes: if we are being caught by doubts led out by such misunderstandings we could easily find ourselves in hands of evil forces, but those evil forces are not real but do only exist in our mind.
 

Mylife

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Your husband speaks like he has extensive and expert knowledge on the subject of demonology.

But, he doesn't really, does he?
No, he doesn't.

I mean, he has understandable (based on his history) but irrational fears about something he really doesn't know anything about.

Pose this question to him:
"How do you judge if a human being is good or evil?"

Answer: the proof is in their actions/intentions and the fruit of them.

Yi (a poem written by human beings) has been giving good (Life supporting & affirming) advice for 3000+ years.

There is the pudding. (Evidence)
It's all the proof one needs.

I can personally testify that Yi has given me invaluable advise over the years.
It has helped me safely navigate dangerous people and situations, and has helped to bring many positive transformations in my life.
I Ching is a supernatural or divination or an energy. I respect it and it did helped me and still does.

I did not say the I Ching is not doing good.

And I am not here to chat about my husband’s experience (none of us will understand it). I just shared the story to share how my question came up.

You said to ask how we judge if a person is good or bad. Your question is about a person. A demon is not the same. A did not hear about good demons. I heard about demons and gods.

however, my point being that maybe the demons are helping us via the I Ching and there will be a price to pay. They give with one hand and take with another. And from what I know, demons feed on energy and soul.

it’s just a dilemma I have
 

Mylife

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Demons are a religious thing. I Ching is not religious. The same way thoughts can mislead us the same way misunderstanding the text of the I Ching can confuse us. Believing that demons lurk behind the text could roughly be called paranoia and yes: if we are being caught by doubts led out by such misunderstandings we could easily find ourselves in hands of evil forces, but those evil forces are not real but do only exist in our mind.
There much be something supernatural / divination in the I Ching. Don’t you agree?
Who gives that? Who gives us the answers? A text…no. There is more than that. Maybe I m missing a point.
 

moss elk

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Supernatural is a medieval western religious concept:

WikiP: It is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature) Though the corollary term "nature", has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the medieval period and did not exist in the ancient world.

What does your husband think about the apostles using divination? They did it.
(Casting Lots or Cleromancy)
Not to mention the divination parts of the Jewish books that were removed by
Roman & European sovereigns & priests.

The supernatural is natural to m.e.

I'm offering you food for thought,
And also for your husband to chew on.
 
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moss elk

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You said to ask how we judge if a person is good or bad. Your question is about a person.

My example question to you is not about a person, it's about discernment.

You may substitute Cocker Spaniel and use the same criteria to evaluate.

Substitute 'sentient' being for 'human' being. And you'll start to understand what I'm saying.
 

Trojina

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Recently, talking with my husband about the I Ching and the consult I made, he made me think about one point:
- these “supernatural” ways of getting hints can be dangerous because those divinations who give us the answers can be demons. And demons feed on our energy and souls.
- he also brought up that demons rarely give something for free and there might be a price to pay for every casts we make and answers we receive.
(I m not saying he is right - I am just sharing what my husband and I were talking about).
I see why your husband would be concerned, I didn't feel your approach was helpful to you at all in asking so much for predictions about baby's health and so it's possible your husband wishes you wouldn't lean so much on Yi and he's trying to give reasons as to why you shouldn't keep consulting. He doesn't know much about Yi I'm guessing so he's lumping it together with Tarot and all sorts of other things. I think he's right it is dangerous to mess too much with energies you really do not understand and harm can result.

But re Yi being demonic, well it's certainly a question worth considering and I guess no one knows for sure 'who' we consult when we consult. There is much truth in this passage where Jesus says

From Matthew 7:15–20 (KJV):
Ye shall know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
echoing what Moss said about the fruits of things. In my experience Yi is truthful and has not led me astray. Also Yi is an oracle that in my experience recognises and exalts Jesus very clearly so that also makes me think Yi is not demonic.

You'll find we all have very different views on this. I disagree with Sernevs when he says these things

Demons are a religious thing. I Ching is not religious.
Yes the I Ching is full of demons look at 63.3 and 64.4 and 38.6 to start with. While we can say these may be psychological factors in our readings that still does not negate the actual existence of demons. Clearly the writers of Yi reckoned with demons. Demons are not a purely religious thing, they occur in all spiritual traditions and none. From the earliest times, pre Yi, pre religions people believed in demons.

Just because it may not be in our experience doesn't mean it does not exist. Humans are just one life form and there are all kinds of life forms we may not perceive, ghosts, fairies ...it would be human arrogance to think these things only exist in our minds with no life of their own beyond our own heads.
Believing that demons lurk behind the text could roughly be called paranoia and yes: if we are being caught by doubts led out by such misunderstandings we could easily find ourselves in hands of evil forces, but those evil forces are not real but do only exist in our mind.

I do not think the idea that demons are behind the text can be said to be called paranoia. Why wouldn't someone think that if they hadn't used Yi. Also frankly a great number of people do themselves a great deal of harm through consulting Yi. That is not that Yi itself is harmful but that they use it instead of thinking for themselves, become passive, dependent or frightened of answers.

Evil exists, it is not merely a product of our minds since we are not the absolute centre of the whole of creation. Just as bad people exist or people at least that will harm others so there are spirits who may intend harm. We are spirits wearing bodies and if we can be bad with a body we can be bad without one. And there are greater more powerful spiritual forces than ourselves so if we ever get to thinking all these things are just products of our minds we probably have a rude awakening coming some time or another if we mess about with the darker side of divination etc.

Hence now I asked myself
a) “the answers we get from the I Ching is given by demons? That means we communicate with them?
b) Do we need to pay a price later in life? Are we actually paying the price right now in the presente and we don’t realise?”
c) are we doing something we are not supposed to do and there will be consequences on us or people we love?

has anyone asked themselves these questions? What’s your opinion about

I often ask myself about the nature of what I consult, I think about it. It seems to me Yi is a 'clean' kind of divination, not open to entities to be tampered with. If you think you are talking to demons then stop.

Sparhawk once talked about how divining, consulting Yi, does impact on the fabric of life in subtle ways. No one can be sure of course what effect that has energetically. I think overall it is better to cast less rather than more. This is because for each casting I believe there is an energy exchange, I feel it. I don't think a person can cope properly with many questions as the actual communication gets lost. The worse thing about the online casting tool and these apps is it encourages mindless and repetitive questioning which is psychologically unhealthy. If you are always trying to cheat life by getting a view ahead, believing you can manipulate the future or other people well that sounds kind of demonic. But actually Yi is far more than that and so I don't think it does engage on that demonic level.


Oh another reason I feel Yi is 'clean' as an oracle is the number of times it either gives the question back to you or simply reflects the question. Therefore it is not impinging on your own power. Anything of a demonic nature will start to take away your independence, it won't encourage independence as it wants you enslaved. Yi is constantly saying 'you decide/what do you think?' that's how I find it. That's how I think it is a good deal of the time. So while I do think we are making an energetic exchange with Yi I don't think it pulls us into slavery.
 
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moss elk

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But re Yi being demonic, well it's certainly a question worth considering and I guess no one knows for sure 'who' we consult when we consult. There is much truth in this passage where Jesus says

From Matthew 7:15–20 (KJV):
Ye shall know them by their fruit.

I know you and I may differ on this part:

I personally have never had the sense that I was communicating with a personality or being.

And I even think the two occasions where the text changes from 3rd person to 1st person was done for dramatic emphasis by the author as a 'hey! wake up'

"Stop bothering me you importuning dummy!"
And
"You are drooling for what is on my plate?!"
 

Trojina

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I personally have never had the sense that I was communicating with a personality or being.
I wouldn't necessarily pin it down to a personality as such, it's not a person. The communication is with living intelligence, if it were not living intelligence there would be no reason for me to converse with it. Indeed if it is not living intelligence I cannot see where you'd think the answers come from but people have various ideas about that. Where and how you think answers come is a very individual thing and I don't think it makes any difference to the quality of the consultation.
 

IrfanK

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Hmm. I'm always curious to hear how people in some cultures see spirits as either good or bad. It's quite an alien idea in many parts of South-East Asia, where I live. Spirits have personalities and powers, for sure, but people tend less to see them as good or bad. They can be wilful, capricious, cheeky and troublesome. A bit like wild animals, they can cause damage if they are treated carelessly and with lack of respect. Or they can be helpful and kind, if they are in a good humor. The same river spirit that waters the crops this year can wash them away the next. It's true that some are more likely to be kind and gentle than others. The spirit of a reliable river that never dries up or floods is certainly easier to live with than the spirit of a volcano that spits rocks at you. But neither are really good or evil.

I'm quite sure that the Yi is conscious, but I don't think it has a personality. And I'm certain that it doesn't have its own desires and agenda. It doesn't grant favors or bring good luck, nor does it derive any benefit from doing you harm.

It just tells the truth.
 

hilary

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Many years ago women used to make use of these kind of ways to obtain answers.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, it might be worth enquiring into this. If divination in his experience was specifically something women did, what were the men doing? I'd hazard a guess that they were invested in an accepted religious tradition - Christianity, for instance - which deliberately excluded women from positions of authority. And when that same religious tradition pronounces on the value of divination, it finds it demonic. Hmm.

However... on an individual level it is much more important to judge by the fruits, as Moss Elk and Trojina have each said. It's very possible to harm yourself with I Ching readings in ways that have nothing to do with demons.
 

surnevs

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Book of Enoch ch. 8* will it, that some of the fallen angels taught humans those evil things:
"..... Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots - Armers taught the solution of sorcery - Barkayal taught the observers of the stars - Akibeel taught signs - Tamiel taught astronomy - And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon....." and it should not surprise if the view on such things (divination, sorcery, astrology etc. ) comes from here... in Christianity as well.

Edit: also amongst Christians as well
____________________
*) LINK
 
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surnevs

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Maybe the word paranoia isn't the one to be used, but in the western world where Christianity, Islam and others from around the middle-east coming religions dominate, such warnings against divination, astrology etc. as seen in the book of Enoch are deep-rooted, maybe not generally but present (I guess !). It was written, according to Wikipedia: "The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC."
And fears for demons especially concerning divination, amongst religious (Christians specifically but maybe others ) people, could possible (?) be traced to such sources as lay behind this book.
 

surnevs

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- and, in general, we are not being forced into using/consulting the Book of Changes. Many religions, on the contrary, people are being forced into. Our parents baptised us when being very small/newborns and strong religious traditions, 1000 years of age being pulled down upon us. But the safety this gives, being secure in "the herd" is OK (speaking of religious affiliation) - just that they (the religions) are not all that is in this life... (I believe). What are demons to one religious point of view is contrary to another religious point of view. (I still though believe that demons only exist in our imagination.)
 

Trojina

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It sounds like you think the source of all spiritual reality and experience is books. It is not, books come from the reality, from people's experience.

You seem to be going the direction of setting up a polarity of divination=good religion =bad which is false. The bible is full of divination as well as there being warnings against it.

And it is very important to not lump all divinatory practices together with witchcraft, sorcery, black magic.

It is a reality that people can call on help from darker forces through certain practices and by doing that they will always suffer. Our senses our narrow and limited - we do not easily perceive what is beyond the realm of our animal bodies but that does not mean that spiritual beings do not surround us. As we cannot know them we are quite easily susceptible to being tricked, many people are. Therefore discernment is really really important. For example there are a number of famous new age channellers gaining popularity and no doubt they can call forth quite tangible spirit manifestations but this isn't necessarily for truth or for good.

And fears for demons especially concerning divination, amongst religious (Christians specifically but maybe others ) people, could possible (?) be traced to such sources as lay behind this book.
No, it's not true that fears of demons are down to a source in a book, any book, that's just making spiritual reality a matter of academics. You are completely discounting people's actual experience with spirits now, today, that do not rely on having read old books and that includes academic books on the I Ching. Talking to Yi doesn't depend on academic study. If it's a living energy which I think it is you need not concern yourself you don't have enough hours in the day to cram it all in as you described here, you can go direct and have a conversation with it. Academic resources are of great value, without these we couldn't even access translations, but they really are not the 'source' of Yi and nor are books the source of demons and angels and so on.

- and, in general, we are not being forced into using/consulting the Book of Changes. Many religions, on the contrary, people are being forced into. Our parents baptised us when being very small/newborns and strong religious traditions, 1000 years of age being pulled down upon us. But the safety this gives, being secure in "the herd" is OK (speaking of religious affiliation) - just that they (the religions) are not all that is in this life... (I believe). What are demons to one religious point of view is contrary to another religious point of view. (I still though believe that demons only exist in our imagination.)
So you are really saying that though you do not believe in the existence of either demons, or any other spiritual beings outside of books, divination of any kind is good and all religion is bad. Religions deal with spiritual reality, don't fall into the trap of discarding the truth of religions because of what humans have done with it. I mean humans can make Yi into an oracle of lies, evil and oppression. Some can call themselves 'masters' and claim they have complete knowledge of someone's fate in a matter through Yi, some make it say what it never said at all, some translate it to what it never said at all...and the same with religious texts and all ancients texts. They all have humans with agendas as filters but that does not make them of no worth in teachings of spiritual reality. Just because various religious bodies used force to indoctrinate people that does not mean all the teachings of that religion didn't hold great value.

(I still though believe that demons only exist in our imagination.)
So you think human imagination contains all the spiritual realms and there is nothing that exists in it's own right in that realm beyond that imagination. If you think demons only exist in the mind what about angels? This idea that human imagination is the very limit of spiritual reality would explain why you think academia is the only way to know Yi maybe? Maybe you don't think Yi is a living consciousness but that it is just a source in a book somewhere? If you believe that it will indeed be a very tiring project to get to know Yi. To me the idea that demons only exist in our imagination is making the universe completely humancentric.



One source of knowledge/seeking predictions are the use of Ouija boards which I would not go anywhere near. Using these is like opening the door to any passing thug in spirit for the sake of getting a glimpse behind the curtain so to speak. So of course when using divination or dabbling in new age channelling (also very suspect indeed) using one's own discernment fully is of the utmost importance. If you do these things imagining there is nothing there beyond your own imagination you are in trouble- although of course if there is nothing out there beyond your own imagination why bother at all. Even after 40 years of consulting Yi I'm still asking myself questions of whether it's a good idea, still asking some of the questions Mylife asks. For now I have decided Yi is not demonic, it seems to hold it's own integrity. I could be wrong but that's where I am now.

No use lumping all kinds of divination together. There's world of difference between gaining a prophecy through a dream or the shape of the clouds and summoning spirits through a Ouija board for example. One kind is given, a dream is given, the shapes of the clouds are given, bird omens are given but using Ouija board is tampering, summoning, calling forth forces one has no business to call forth. Is Yi a given or dubious tampering? I'm seeing it more as given, and as said earlier going by the fruits. I have never seen Yi take away a person's choice though I have seen plenty of people more than willing to throw away their power of choice through Yi - which it won't let them do.
 
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moss elk

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Interesting article:

The Greek origin of the word did not have negative qualities attached to it.
It meant diety or 'lesser' diety.

Attaching 'evil' to the concept came from outside: the abrahamic traditions & Roman Empire & Medieval kings.

Food for thought.

Again, I'm talking history.
As I don't believe I am speaking to an entity. (I think of it as communing with the whole/ the all as distinguished from my thoughts & feelings)

All the Beasts and devils I have known walked on two legs.

Like the ones in the u.s. now who are (ok, they are mostly just greedy idiots) trying to undo the separation of church and state.... Regressive dimwits who wanted to make trump a king using violence and deceit.
And write articles like 'the biblical basis for killing non christians'

Originally a war monger was an anti-christ, then the Roman Empire claimed ownership of the religion. Dubbed themselves 'Holy' and proceeded with 1k+ years of Imperial violence , Cesar's and Csar's then European Crusaders , culminating in people who missed that whole 'enlightenment period' Europe went through and swept across north america committing genocide against the native americans (with the blessing of priests more often than not.)

Where were we..
Anyhoo, I will plead 'no contest' to the argument on the existence of spiritual beings at this time. There is a lot we could say.

The gifted foo lions on my shelf
could deal with such anyway. Or maybe the gifted Catholic Saint pendant. Or the gifted dream catcher. Or the gifted incense the monk lady made. Or the gifted stuffed mandrill, Or the pine cone elf made by a 5 year old.
(ok, I paid him for it. 5 bucks)
As I write this, I am just now realizing how sweet all of those gifts were and how hilarious and/or odd this must be to read.
 
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Trojina

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The Greek origin of the word did not have negative qualities attached to it.
It meant diety or 'lesser' diety.

Attaching 'evil' to the concept came from outside: the abrahamic traditions.

The Greek origin of the word is not the be all and end all. The word does not create the reality - the word 'human' does not bring humans into existence. All over the world in traditions and cultures of all kind people have believed in bad spirits and demons. I see it on practically every documentary made on tribal people. It is not a 'concept' that just came from the abrahamic traditions at all. There are demons in Yi, the word is used. You said in your deleted posts 'demons' in Yi meant humans but that reflects your idea every answer is about humans like with your view of 8.3. According to you 8.3 is always about bad people regardless of whether the question even has any people in it. I have known 8.3 be about spirits and animals, those who are not human. The entire cosmos does not revolve around humans there are things, beings beyond us.

I really don't think the reality of the demonic can just be swept away with a wiki article or 2 - it's just more than that. Moreover plenty of people have real life testimony to the reality of the demonic.
All the Beasts and devils I have known walked on two legs.
You haven't had any experience of evil spirits then but that doesn't mean they do not exist. I really don't know how anyone can think that everything in the realm of spirit is all lovely and rosy - it's not here on earth and nor is it on other realms.
 
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surnevs

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When first I spotted this thread I decided mainly to give my point of view: not to believe in Demons. While writing I was interrupted by a box pupping up saying something like "another is writing a comment" or something like that, and for a moment thought I better stop, but I finished my comment and when seeing the other reply (#2) I was nearly deleting my own reply as the other reply might serve well. But why not let it be? I had decided only to give this my take at it and by no way be involved in a discussion about such (in my eye) superstitious a subject as demons, devils etc. This is mainly why I didn't reply to neither Mylife nor Trojina and: apologize for this. A lot of your criticism of my approach here, Trojina, in my replying is legitimate as I did put such a comprehensive topic into such few words and I recognized also a misunderstanding that could have occurred when you mentioned this 'academia-site', a link I actually deleted before I read your comment - believe it or not. So, I've explained here why I avoid the discussion about demons: Again, because they don't exist.
 

moss elk

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All over the world in traditions and cultures of all kind people have believed in bad spirits and demons.

Sure they have.
My point is about identifying and dealing with actual devils (as opposed to theoretical ones) and to be careful about what one believes, because that which is within our ability to deal with, is what we should deal with.

Anyone care to identify the annointed devils in this news article?

 
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Trojina

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So, I've explained here why I avoid the discussion about demons: Again, because they don't exist.
I'm astonished at your confidence about that. I can't see how you would possibly know that but maybe it's more a case of you don't want them to exist. I'm sure I'd rather they didn't but still.

Whatever we aren't really here to discuss the existence of demons, fairies nor angels. I'm guessing if you can state demons don't exist then you would also say ghosts, fairies, tree spirits and angels don't exist but that's not worth arguing over since it doesn't make any difference to what is real and what isn't.

The original poster, Mylife, who we haven't seen for some time now so we don't know where she is with this is only asking if there is a possibility that when she consults Yi she is engaging with demons who will at a later point want payment for services. We have all reassured her on that point, in different ways, that we don't think she is engaging with demons when talking to Yi.

I mean, he has understandable (based on his history) but irrational fears about something he really doesn't know anything about.
I do not think he is being irrational - certainly not compared to us who talk to a book and those who expect long term hard as stone predictions from a book. His wife, Mylife, has wanted those as I have seen in SR. We have discussed it over there and I've almost begged her I think to stop asking for predictions about the health of a baby that at that time did not even exist. If her husband thinks her engagement with Yi is going in a dark direction I am wholly in agreement with him. And what he says is true there can be dangers in dabbling with the occult. He can't distinguish between Yi and other ways that's all but that does not mean he is being irrational he's probably just concerned.

My point is about identifying and dealing with actual devils (as opposed to theoretical ones) and to be careful about what one believes, because that which is within our ability to deal with, is what we should deal with.
I'm having trouble connecting this strand with the original post. I mean yes of course there are nuts who propose demons must be driven out of innocent people, historically all that horror of the witch hunts, but that by no means means there is no such thing as the power of evil or demonic spirits who serve it.

And I don't think as you do that there is this clear demarcation between what you call 'actual devils and theoretical ones'. They can interact, people can be influenced by them. Just as angels can visit people and help them and make things happen for them so can beings from a darker place and actually so can spirits from quite an ordinary not good not bad human kind of place interact with us. It's not all a million miles away. We are spirits with bodies and that really doesn't make us any more actual than those spirits without bodies. Sure we can impact on this world in a direct way they can't but there's a great deal of intermingling and most people probably have testimony of encountering spirits of their family or friends or even pets or some spiritual encountering that meant a great deal to them. And so if spirit exists then why would malignant spirits also exist. And of course some maybe earthbound spirits of people, some may be further up the scale, I don't know.

But her husband is not just being irrational. We who answer her in SR saying 'yes you will have a baby and it will be healthy' are certainly irrational not to mention irresponsible (no one did say that it's just an example)



BTW Moss the link you posted is not available to access here
 
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Mylife

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Wow
I see why your husband would be concerned, I didn't feel your approach was helpful to you at all in asking so much for predictions about baby's health and so it's possible your husband wishes you wouldn't lean so much on Yi and he's trying to give reasons as to why you shouldn't keep consulting. He doesn't know much about Yi I'm guessing so he's lumping it together with Tarot and all sorts of other things. I think he's right it is dangerous to mess too much with energies you really do not understand and harm can result.

But re Yi being demonic, well it's certainly a question worth considering and I guess no one knows for sure 'who' we consult when we consult. There is much truth in this passage where Jesus says


echoing what Moss said about the fruits of things. In my experience Yi is truthful and has not led me astray. Also Yi is an oracle that in my experience recognises and exalts Jesus very clearly so that also makes me think Yi is not demonic.

You'll find we all have very different views on this. I disagree with Sernevs when he says these things


Yes the I Ching is full of demons look at 63.3 and 64.4 and 38.6 to start with. While we can say these may be psychological factors in our readings that still does not negate the actual existence of demons. Clearly the writers of Yi reckoned with demons. Demons are not a purely religious thing, they occur in all spiritual traditions and none. From the earliest times, pre Yi, pre religions people believed in demons.

Just because it may not be in our experience doesn't mean it does not exist. Humans are just one life form and there are all kinds of life forms we may not perceive, ghosts, fairies ...it would be human arrogance to think these things only exist in our minds with no life of their own beyond our own heads.


I do not think the idea that demons are behind the text can be said to be called paranoia. Why wouldn't someone think that if they hadn't used Yi. Also frankly a great number of people do themselves a great deal of harm through consulting Yi. That is not that Yi itself is harmful but that they use it instead of thinking for themselves, become passive, dependent or frightened of answers.

Evil exists, it is not merely a product of our minds since we are not the absolute centre of the whole of creation. Just as bad people exist or people at least that will harm others so there are spirits who may intend harm. We are spirits wearing bodies and if we can be bad with a body we can be bad without one. And there are greater more powerful spiritual forces than ourselves so if we ever get to thinking all these things are just products of our minds we probably have a rude awakening coming some time or another if we mess about with the darker side of divination etc.



I often ask myself about the nature of what I consult, I think about it. It seems to me Yi is a 'clean' kind of divination, not open to entities to be tampered with. If you think you are talking to demons then stop.

Sparhawk once talked about how divining, consulting Yi, does impact on the fabric of life in subtle ways. No one can be sure of course what effect that has energetically. I think overall it is better to cast less rather than more. This is because for each casting I believe there is an energy exchange, I feel it. I don't think a person can cope properly with many questions as the actual communication gets lost. The worse thing about the online casting tool and these apps is it encourages mindless and repetitive questioning which is psychologically unhealthy. If you are always trying to cheat life by getting a view ahead, believing you can manipulate the future or other people well that sounds kind of demonic. But actually Yi is far more than that and so I don't think it does engage on that demonic level.


Oh another reason I feel Yi is 'clean' as an oracle is the number of times it either gives the question back to you or simply reflects the question. Therefore it is not impinging on your own power. Anything of a demonic nature will start to take away your independence, it won't encourage independence as it wants you enslaved. Yi is constantly saying 'you decide/what do you think?' that's how I find it. That's how I think it is a good deal of the time. So while I do think we are making an energetic exchange with Yi I don't think it pulls us into slavery.
Wow @Trojina thanks a lot for your full and extended explanation. I think you covered it all. And here I agree with you that we don’t know “who” we speak with hence the doubts and questions pop in my head.
do you think I can ask the Yi to guide me understand who I talk to and who gives me the answers?
 

Mylife

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The communication is with living intelligence, if it were not living intelligence there would be no reason for me to converse with it.
I believe too that we communicate with someone, with some sort of energy or entity. And that’s what I would like to understand if this entity / energy is a good one who helps freely out of the good being or a bad one to whom I have to pay a price to its help / assistance.
 

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It is a reality that people can call on help from darker forces through certain practices and by doing that they will always suffer.
That’s what I am afraid of. Is Yi a dark forse and by asking for its help we will suffer / pay a price?
 

Trojina

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Have you read the replies fully? We've all said we don't think I Ching is a bad entity for which there is a price to be paid. Most people probably don't think Yi is an entity as such at all but the response of the cosmos so to speak and many people think the answers come from themselves.

Everyone here has said they do not think there is harm in consulting Yi. If there is harm it is not from Yi but the way a person uses it. In my own experience the times I have harmed myself using Yi was a time when I was extremely anxious and was asking a lot and it was making my anxiety worse and it was a really good idea to put the book away and live simply in the moment. There are times where divining is not the best thing to be doing. You got 52uc recently after asking many questions about the baby. That was clear advice to stop considering the future and be still.
 

Mylife

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Have you read the replies fully? We've all said we don't think I Ching is a bad entity for which there is a price to be paid. Most people probably don't think Yi is an entity as such at all but the response of the cosmos so to speak and many people think the answers come from themselves.

Everyone here has said they do not think there is harm in consulting Yi. If there is harm it is not from Yi but the way a person uses it. In my own experience the times I have harmed myself using Yi was a time when I was extremely anxious and was asking a lot and it was making my anxiety worse and it was a really good idea to put the book away and live simply in the moment. There are times where divining is not the best thing to be doing. You got 52uc recently after asking many questions about the baby. That was clear advice to stop considering the future and be still.
I just finished reading all the messages. Thank you all for sharing your view and opinion. It’s very much appreciated.

@Trojina yes I just saw now all the answers.
and I agree with you that there is an “entity” or an energy behind Yi. And I also agree and I see it every time I used it, that no harm was made to me with the answers given. And same like you, I harmed myself when I asked the Yi during anxiety and fear.

however it was a topic that was in my mind and I wanted to hear some opinions from all of you, to know how with what eyes to look at the I Ching book.
 

Mylife

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Hi all,

I took some time to think to what you all said and I decided (not sure if wised) to ask the oracle about the subject we discussed here.

i asked 2 questions for which I struggle to understand the answer. I am thinking if even the answers are relevant or if the oracle takes me seriously.
However I asked

1. What can you tell me about the benevolence of the I Ching book. Is this book guiding us in the name of the good divinity?

The answer is 26.1.6 changing into 46
Is like great accumulation changing into growing upward. Not sure I understand what is saying to me about the nature of the oracle and I Ching.

2. Will I have a “price to pay” for consulting the I Ching book?

The answer is 23.1.4 changing into 21.
Here again falling away changing into eradicating an issue.

I struggle very much to take a sense of the answers in regards to the questions about the I Ching itself.
Anyone has a better understanding of what is trying to tell me?

I think this can help me to clear my doubts but I never asked questions like that before. Most of them I consult the oracle about personal situations and I find it easier to give an interpretation, but this time is not easy for me.

thank you all for your help xx
 

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