I Ching in the Old Testament

[Zimbali]

I have the following speculation.

1. That Kabbalah [Jewish ancient mysticism] had in part a source in the east, of which a part was an understanding of the technology associated with YiJing. They had this from very early in history. Not the 12th C as some suggest.

2. That China had links with the Mediterranean Basin far earlier than current historians suggest. For example the Tarmin mummies show people from around 1800BCE. In Egypt a piece of silk was found on a mummy from around 3000BCE. Metallurgy for the melting of bronze is consistent in process in both China and the west. The potters wheel is the same.

3. There were links between Mesopotamia and China, and obviously Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean.

4. Trigram key words in the OT seem in many cases to correlate with trigram images, and the product hexagrams with the narrative in the old testament.

For example :

And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh.

HAND THIGH = KEN SUN = 53 Developing- operates in good conduct and so elevates the social order

In the same manner:


Genesis Chapter 1: The Creation of Light
The Creation of Light
Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

and so on. If one then transposes the key words and then take them as a trigram syntax, the hexagram formations, and the ten wings, seem to correspond pretty much perfectly with the narrative of the text.

A collocation of trigram key words seems to illuminate a great deal of consistency with Yijing throughout the work.

5. Within Kabbalah there seem to be similar diagrams, such as the Tree of Life which seems to correspond closely with Chinese diagrams I have seen.

6. The Jesuit priest Bouvet, got to the point of agreeing with the Chinese Emperor that the origins of Judaism, or at least some of their beliefs, and those from the Chinese Classics were probably the same.

7. I would say that 6 is the case. The technology passed west to elites and leadership, but was not freely passed to the masses. It was then "woven" into a number of works.

8. The Chinese used the classics, at times, as a means to "intellectual colonisation" [Bol, Harvard]. In a similar manner Magi priest, and other influential parties adapted but in the main integrated the principles into the west.

9. Understanding the OT without the keys related to cause and effect in YiJing makes it very difficult to understand.

10. The Jews uses in a manner similar to what the Chinese did used the above via the OT as means to intellectual colonization, and a means to HEAVEN + WOOD the masses.

11. Which is why heresy became such a big issue the west.

12. The Chinese Rites matter in the 1700's related to the reality that closer association as to the Source of such a "system" was beginning to emerge.

13. That by and large many people go to great lengths to deny such, and discredit those who posit such a notion.

14. However many secret fraternal organisation have held the technology for a considerable period of time.

15. If this, is in fact the case. Which to me it seems it is, what good is to be gained from such knowledge?

16. I suppose the notion remains restrained as it places a large part of the whole "western operating system" into question.

 

[pocossin]

And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh.

HAND THIGH = KEN SUN = 53 Developing- operates in good conduct and so elevates the social order

Since the servant was taking an oath to procure a wife of proper heritage for Isaac (Genesis 24), why do you not associate hexagram 53 with marriage?

 

[Zimbali]

Because the trigram images of HAND = KEN and THIGH = SUN computes on the table I use to 53, and the judgement is what I quoted.

What is interesting is for example on a Bible text site, to use a trigram key word like hand, thigh and so on and see the relationship with other key words.

However the context still makes sense I think.

What is more this is just one example. If you try a collocation you will see the frequency is very large.

 

[pocossin]

Because the trigram images of HAND = KEN and THIGH = SUN computes on the table I use to 53

If you knew the hexagrams, you would not need a table.

and the judgement is what I quoted.

What you quoted ("Developing- operates in good conduct and so elevates the social order") is apparently taken from the Image.

Hatcher:
53.X
On top of the mountain there is a tree
Gradual progress
The noble young one, accordingly,
abides in excellence and character to raise the social norms

If you looked at a proper translation, you would find that that the Judgment of 53 is:

Wilhelm:
Development. The maiden
Is given in marriage.
Good fortune.
Perseverance furthers.

Hatcher:
53.0
Gradual Progress
The young woman's engagement is promising
Worth the persistence

However the context still makes sense I think.

Alas, making sense doesn't make it right.

 

[Zimbali]

I'm not sure what you are getting at precisely.

I use the RL Wing translation, published by HarperCollins.

Hand is an attribute image for Ken.

Thigh is an attribute image for Sun.

On the King Wen = 53 Developing.

However it seems Wilhelm says Development, and Hatcher, Gradual Progess. Therefore I aver to suggest that between developing, development, and gradual progress there is not such a large difference in interpretations.

Judgement:

Developing. Choosing to marry brings good fortune. There is an advantage in correct persistence.

The Image:

The penetrating [wood] is upon the immobile [mountain] forming the condition of Developing. An enlightened person therefor, operates in good conduct and elevates the social order.

Accordingly, if you read the above it seems to correspond precisely with the narrative, and makes sense, and is in my view correct.

However the biblical symbolism has perhaps wider ranging connotations of the concept of development, as opposed to the precise and limited connotation of marriage to a particular person. As also seems the case with 53, as both Wilhelm and Hatcher cite Development or Gradual Progess before marriage. I think in any case that remains open-ended.

However the answer to the question "...why do you not associate hexagram 53 with marriage?". The answer would be that marriage is a subset of 53, and may be a subset of other hexagrams. However the larger notion of Developing according to the computation, and the literal makes that precedent.


This is as stated one example. There are a large number just from the literal trigram key words alone.

If you knew the hexagrams, you would not need a table.

I am not sure what you mean by this exactly. It is the case that I have not memorised the King Wen sequence table with 64 numbers, as that does not seem necessary, as it is readily available. I do know the trigram names as published in Wing, and understand how they compute to a chapter. However without making reference to the table, without learning such I don't understand how to compute the chapter number, as the 64 number array does not seem to have a recognisable pattern. Is it best practise to memorise the Hexagram chart?

However, what I do see, is that the key is in the trigram pair relationship, and if one numbers them 1-8, and treats the pair as a vector, as opposed to the chapter number, the determinant of two vectors seems to correspond with the likely resultant, and when not shows a zero. In fact there seems a lot more to that, such as transposing, and inverting vectors...

However that is a digression.

My point is that trigram attributes seem to compute with some consistency in the OT. This can be seen by the use of corpus linguistics on the narrative, and collocation with the trigram attribute key words.

Alas, making sense doesn't make it right.

I don't follow this part at all.

 

[pocossin]

I'm not sure what you are getting at precisely.

I am not sure what you mean by this exactly.

I don't follow this part at all.

By omission of details, you are making associations that appear to me forced. The Old Testament is no more permeated by hexagrams than are fairy tales as another argued at Clarity. "Thigh" is Genesis 24 is apparently a euphemism for testicles. The servant held Isaac testicles while taking an oath.

 

[Zimbali]

Thanks Pocossin.

It would be very interesting to hear from others.

There is nothing forced about corpus linguistics and collocation. Basically data and frequencies. When the frequencies increase the field of corpus linguistics comes into its own. In fact it is a very valuable part of linguistic science.

For those of you who are not familiar a corpora is a base of texts, some with a very large amount of phrases and passages. Related software allows one to search on specific words, and this gives data to relationships, word usage, related vocabulary, and so on.

With modern media analysis it is very useful for picking up underlying themes of positive and negative perspectives in the media which influences public opinion. It is also used by those who seek to bias opinion in the media.

However it is also highly useful with ancient texts as well, where a wide range of ancient texts can be loaded to the corpora and then key words collocated.

What I discovered was in collocating some specific ancient texts, i.e The Old Testament [but not only that I found similar in Homer and Pindar as well, but not for example Hesiod and others] frequencies of certain words was unusually high in comparison to the large sample corpora.

What was interesting was that the high frequency words matched with a high level of consistency the trigram attribute key words in I Ching.

What was more when one changed syntax from the literal reading [of how we normally read] and combined images within the flow of the master narrative in close proximity, and read the images as trigrams, the compound hexagrams very often were consistent with the master narrative. Generally illuminating further the narrative with an explanation of cause and effect, or made reference to an event read shortly thereafter in the narrative.

So much so, that such cannot be coincidence. It seems written precisely in that manner, encompassing such data in an embedded form.

It is interesting to take trigram attribute key words and look for yourself.

 

[svenrus]

Some similar to this thread has been up before I remember. Maybe not exactly:


http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?7774-The-Bible-and-Yi&highlight=bible

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...9-A-Christian-Book-of-Changes&highlight=bible

 

[Sparhawk]

Glad Sven posted that old thread. Yes, those things are explored in McCaffree's book

 

[Sparhawk]

For those of you who are not familiar a corpora is a base of texts, some with a very large amount of phrases and passages. Related software allows one to search on specific words, and this gives data to relationships, word usage, related vocabulary, and so on.

I suppose you are talking about texts in their original languages, no? Like what they tried to do in the series of books "The Bible Code", for example. Otherwise, patterns found in translation can be very misleading...

 

[moss elk]

"Alas, making sense doesn't make it right."

"I don't follow this part at all."

An idea may have a completely sound internal logic to it and not reflect reality/truth or hold up to scrutiny in the face of other information.


From wikipedia:
a false premise is an incorrect*proposition*that forms the basis of an argument or*syllogism. Since the*premise*(proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error. However,
*the*logical validity*of an argument is a function of its internal consistency*, not the truth value*of its premises.

From same article:
An old cowboy goes into a bar and orders a drink. As he sits there sipping his whiskey, a young lady sits down next to him. ... She says, 'I'm a lesbian. I spend my whole day thinking about women. ...' A little while later, a couple sits down next to the old cowboy and asks him, 'Are you a real cowboy?' He replies, 'I always thought I was, but I just found out I'm a lesbian'".

 

[Zimbali]

I suppose you are talking about texts in their original languages, no? Like what they tried to do in the series of books "The Bible Code", for example. Otherwise, patterns found in translation can be very misleading...

I think it's better to use the Torah in fact.

However the KJV also illuminates a message that those who promulgated designed.

I suppose one could say that communication between people at different levels has been the case since early humanity. And that some communities as very specific manners of communication that was specific to their intellectual network.

 

[pocossin]

I think it's better to use the Torah in fact.

However the KJV also illuminates a message that those who promulgated designed.

Forty years ago I believed that there was a correspondence between the Psalms and the hexagrams of the King Wen Sequence. The key was the calendar. I never developed this idea because most of the people I associate with are ignorant heathens, and I will not cast my pearls before swine. However, the astrological correspondence between the days of first Genesis, the Ten Commandments, and the zodiacal correspondence of Ecclesiastes are absolutely certain for me, and, I think, for anyone who has the intellect to examine them in their cultural context. You think you are going to discover correspondence on the cheap through computer programs. Bonne chance.

 

[Zimbali]

In in last year I have taken a number of courses associated with these topics.

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem ran a very interesting course on "European Mysticism" which I found very interesting. Part of the course included Kabbalah, and the Professor voiced his view that the schematic for Kabbalah was not of Jewish origin but originated in the east.

Visually one case actually see some schematics related to Kabbalah and I Ching [certainly from the Song Dynasty] are clearly similar in nature.

In Kabbalah in Jewish teaching, it is not a topic for the masses, and certainly in past times it certainly was not freely passed around.

I did another course at Harvard School of Divinity on Early Christianity. I think an important thing I learnt from that was, what initially is obvious, but one must also fully consider the connotations, that effectively, Christianity was a Jewish lead and developed group in the early period.

Generally speaking Christianity based only on the OT and NT is quite a limited set of documents in comparison to all of the documents related to Judaism.

What is quite striking is there are a lot of questions from people related to "The Mysteries" of the Bible. Another point I think in Matthew after Jesus was talking from the boat in the Sea of Galilee, a disciple asked why he spoke in parables. Jesus answered, because they [the masses he was speaking to] don't know the things we do. I took that as a reference to the greater levels of education that was given to Jews related to their religion.

Thus, I think a limitation that restrains Christianity [at the masses level] is that there is basically only the 2 books, OT and NT, and the notion of heresy indoctrinated people not to ask too many questions. In fact from around the time of the Jewish war with Rome in around 70AD the notion of heresy stepped up both with Judaism and Christianity [albeit only at its beginnings].

In fact Christianity has a lot of restraining notions.

I think that there are certainly grounds to suggest that in some respects Christianity was an intellectual colonisation of Gentiles by Jews. I know that many people might be offended by such a suggestion. However that might be due to beliefs as opposed to knowledge of the history.

Early during the Zhou Dynasty the notion of intellectual colonisation of barbarians was attempted via education with the Chinese classics. [I have been also doing a course on Chinese history at Harvard School of Asian Studies].

Thus it is my view that the technology and understand of Yijing migrated west, and thru Zoroasterism found its way into western systems. An example might be seen for example in parts of the Dead Sea Scroll, which one might consider yin yang.

I would speculate that in broad terms the notion of Yijing was understood by the Chaldean Magi, in turn this was taken by the Jews. Abraham was a Chaldean, Moses was taught by Magi in Egypt.

That in the OT part of the schematic related with Kabbalah in my view.

Thus your view that Psalms relates to King Wen, I personally think is highly likely. As are the other points I have made related to image compounds.

I never developed this idea because most of the people I associate with are ignorant heathens/QUOTE]

We all know discussing topics like Yijing or Christianity etc, with people that have never studied it, is a waste of time.

[Interesting off topic I also think there is something more to the "Catalogue of Ships" in Homer. Possible with latent meanings].

 

[russell]

When I read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about the urim and thummim, the divination objects that the high priest wore in his breastplate. I wonder if they were something like the way of sixteen I Ching, or the African Ifá.

 

[pocossin]

One common factor between the Old Testament and the I Ching is correlative thinking. Resemblance is significance.

 

[Zimbali]

Resemblance is significance.

Where resemblance is far form coincidental, but not the source.