Indagations and correspondences concerning Yuan Heng Li Zhen

[dfreed]

I noticed that, in his commentary on these words, Kung Tse says the following: 大哉乾元 - Vast is the 'great and originating (power)' indicated by Qian! (Legge) ....

To me, it seems De Harlez and Vilá are the ones that get closer ....

.... but, as Maeterlinck puts it: ....

As I said, in order to respond more fully, I will await your response about your specific interest in the Yi, but in the mean time, I don't know who Kung Tse is, and I don't know if what you're writing is from him or from Legge; I don't know who De Harlex or Vila or Maeterlinck are, nor what they wrote. And I don't read nor speak German nor French (nor Chinese) so if you offer quotes or text in any of these languages, it's 'Greek to me'.

Best, D.

 

[Plutonian]

I have an initial question however. I'm wondering, what is your interest in the Yijing? Are you specifically interested in using it as an oracle, to do 'readings'? Or is your interest more spiritual or philosophical? Or perhaps your interest is more intellectual, that it's a puzzle of some sort you want to solve? Or ...?

I always used it as oracle, but not to predict the future, but to help me see my present clearly and decide a course of action. I also read it as a philosophical and mystical book. I also read it as a moral guide towards virtue. Also as a compilation of 64 archetypes that englobe all possible situations in time. I started by the puzzles, when I was younger. I must say I actually managed to find a coherent order that actually says something and gives a good deal of new information on how hexagrams connect themselves between eachother. Nowadays, I started studying each pair of hexagrams individually, to better understand how each one of them works, and why it says what it says. Been using the Yi for about 7 years now, and I'm just getting started Anyways, if i have to define the Yi, to me it is a pool of meaning, a noble purpose, a way to embody the heavenly laws, and to act in accordance to time.

edit: i spent almost 2 years exclusively studying Qian and Kun. Only then was I ready (i guess) to move on to further study of the other hexagrams.

 

[Plutonian]

As I said, in order to respond more fully, I will await your response about your specific interest in the Yi, but in the mean time, I don't know who Kung Tse is, and I don't know if what you're writing is from him or from Legge; I don't know who De Harlex or Vila or Maeterlinck are, nor what they wrote. And I don't read nor speak German nor French (nor Chinese) so if you offer quotes or text in any of these languages, it's 'Greek to me'.

Best, D.

Oh, but I offered traductions in each of the cases. I quote them in their original language for more accuracy. But I did put the traductions. You have to click the blurry texts. And Kung Tse is Confucius, the author (presumably) of most of the Yi Jings commentaries

 

[Plutonian]

De Harlex or Vila or Maeterlinck

De Harlez was a belgian orientalist who traduced the Yi Jing to french language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Joseph_de_Harlez_de_Deulin

Jordi Vilá and Albert Galvany are two catalan authors that did a direct traduction from chinese to spanish, with Wang Bi (a chinese philosopher who wrote a whole commentary to all of the Yi) commentaries.
On Wang Bi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Bi

Maeterlinck is a novelist, and I quoted that part because it expresses the urge to keep asking, even if the answer is not completely satisfying.

 

[IrfanK]

De Harlez was a belgian orientalist who traduced the Yi Jing to french language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Joseph_de_Harlez_de_Deulin

Ah, interesting! You're fluent in French? I've been working quite hard on mine over the past year. I've been thinking it's about time I found a copy of the Yi in French, just to see how it reads. Would you recommend De Harlez? I'd prefer something that was translated directly from Chinese, rather than, say, from Chinese to German to French (I gather that there is a French translation of Wilhelm!). Thanks!

 

[IrfanK]

I looked up the French Wikipedia to see what was out there, at:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Jing

It lists the following as the major translations:

• Yi King : Le livre des transformations (trad. Richard Wilhelm, trad. française et préface d'Etienne Perrot), Paris, Librairie de Médicis, 1992
• Le Yi King, traduction Française de Paul-Louis-Félix Philastre, présentation de François Jullien, Zulma, 1992, 882 pages.
• Yi king, Thomas Cleary et Lieou Yi-Ming, Point Seuil, 2001
• Yi Jing. Le Livre des Changements, Cyrille J.-D. Javary et Pierre Faure, Paris : Albin Michel, février 2002, 1 065 pages.
• Yi king - traité des vases communicants. Une pratique pour vivre au cœur des coïncidences, Anaël Assier, Le Mercure Dauphinois, 2008, 256 pages, (ISBN 978-2-35662-002-6).
• Le Yi Jing, pratique et interprétation pour la vie quotidienne, Arlette de Beaucorps et Dominique Bonpaix. Préface Cyrille Javary. Albin Michel. Collection spiritualités vivantes.

And Kung Tse is Confucius, the author (presumably) of most of the Yi Jings commentaries

Hmmm, I'll jump in on this before anyone else does. Confucius probably didn't write most of the commentaries attributed to him, and particularly not the ones on the Yi. Probably his followers, maybe even quite a few hundred years later. But attributing the words to Confucius probably gave them greater weight and authority. You always have to be careful about taking attributions like that at face value.

 

[Plutonian]

Ah, interesting! You're fluent in French?

Hi Irfank! Sadly, I'm not fluid in french. Yet nowadays google traduce can come in very handy. In "archive.org" you can access to De Harlez's Yi King.

About which version: De Harlez's version is interesting to read. I did not read it in french, but since i was citing different translations i wanted do cite them in their original language. French is not that far from Spanish, German or English, so it can be pretty intuitive. I do speak those three languages. I'm missing french to fulfill the collection... and dutch... and some more!

Again, about which version: I think De Harlez and Philastre are probably the most serious ones thrown directly to french. Haven't read philastres one, but if it is introduced by François Jullien, I confirm its value, since that man is just exquisite to read. I really recomment his book "Figures d'immanence". It opened my eyes on so many things about the Yi.

Hmmm, I'll jump in on this before anyone else does. Confucius probably didn't write most of the commentaries attributed to him, and particularly not the ones on the Yi. Probably his followers, maybe even quite a few hundred years later.

Yes, you're right. I actually knew that, but I wrote hastily. Yet, I must ask: aren't the Tuan Zhuan commentaries on the sentence, and the Xiang Zhuan images to the hexagram and lines attributed to Confucius?
Thanks for correcting me in time before someone else does

Saludos!
J.

 

[Plutonian]

Oh, and also the Yuan Kuang version was thrown to french i think. That version does not contain the original texts, but it is incredibly profound in its technical views.

 

[dfreed]

Nonetheless, to my surprise, I find that the choice of words translators use ....

J, two quick questions (if you don't mind):

* You show images of seal and oracle bone script characters. Where did you find these? Are they from Richard Sears' Chinesec Etymology website?

* I think it was Hilary Bennett who once referred to the Yi as a 'magical talking book'. My sense is there is an aspect of mystery or magic (or something similar) when I use the Yi as an oracle - e.g. pose a query, toss coins, receive an answer. Very simply (and I don't need details), do you generally think this is so?

 

[IrfanK]

Again, about which version: I think De Harlez and Philastre are probably the most serious ones thrown directly to french. Haven't read philastres one, but if it is introduced by François Jullien, I confirm its value, since that man is just exquisite to read. I really recomment his book "Figures d'immanence". It opened my eyes on so many things about the Yi.

Thank you! Yes, I've heard that there is quite a strong tradition of French research into ancient China and the Yi, and that not all of the major works have been translated. Karcher was a French speaker, I hear, and that he drew on some of the French writings for his ideas.

Yes, you're right. I actually knew that, but I wrote hastily. Yet, I must ask: aren't the Tuan Zhuan commentaries on the sentence, and the Xiang Zhuan images to the hexagram and lines attributed to Confucius?

Well, yes, he sometimes is. But probably incorrectly. I don't think they ever mention his name, just "the Master," but that's generally taken to refer to him. But I think it's just that the old commentators liked to attribute their ideas, or ideas passed on to them by their teachers, to the great sages. It's just a way of saying, this is really important, you better listen. Fu Xi. Confucius. But at least Confucius actually existed, even if he never said a tenth of the things attributed to him!

I think it's a bit similar to when the old commentators state that they are merely passing on ideas that were developed many thousands of years ago, when they might really have been formulated two generations ago, if you're lucky. It happens all over the place, not just ancient China. I listened to a fascinating British Museum podcast about the history of hatha yoga, which basically says that the physical postures really don't go back much further than the 15th century, and even then, they were absolutely nothing like modern yoga, which started to emerge in the 19th century. It was quite funny, they were getting absolutely bombed by all the yoga teachers and practitioners who were listening, furious that they were being told that this "ancient practice" wasn't quite as old as the Cistine Chapel. Vipassana meditation, too: (we) practitioners like to say that we have rediscovered Gautama's original teachings -- but we're kidding ourselves, really. There isn't any evidence that it was practiced until quite late in the 19th century.

None of all this matters much. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea, it doesn't matter exactly who or when. That's just part of the story.

 

[Plutonian]

None of all this matters much. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea, it doesn't matter exactly who or when. That's just part of the story.

This really sums it up!

Vipassana meditation, too: (we) practitioners like to say that we have rediscovered Gautama's original teachings -- but we're kidding ourselves, really. There isn't any evidence that it was practiced until quite late in the 19th century.

I look for Vipassana in google and the first thing I see is:

It says "vipassana is one of the oldest meditation techniques in India. it has been teached for more than 2500 years." Damn! Gotta know your facts

this is really important, you better listen. Fu Xi. Confucius.

About this, I do differ, since Confucius is pronounced Kung Tse in chinese, which doesn't has that much of a phonetic resemblance with Fu Xi.

Yet, I'm supposing you mean Vipassana meditation specifically, right? Because in the Bhagavad Gita there are some instructions for meditation, and well, as you said, Buddah was a meditator too!

Saludo! J.

they were getting absolutely bombed by all the yoga teachers and practitioners who were listening,

This made me laugh

 

[Plutonian]

J, two quick questions (if you don't mind):

* You show images of seal and oracle bone script characters. Where did you find these? Are they from Richard Sears' Chinesec Etymology website?

Hey D!
I've found some sources that appear serious to me, and I'm getting my ethimological and semantical information from there.
For the original text in chinese
For the meaning of chinese characters
Example: i search for the character 天 and i get this
For the bronze inscription and alike, i use both pages.
For example, on the same character, i use this source as well.

My sense is there is an aspect of mystery or magic (or something similar) when I use the Yi as an oracle - e.g. pose a query, toss coins, receive an answer. Very simply (and I don't need details), do you generally think this is so?

I do think so. That is why the Yi always renews my faith. And I don't need to know either why or how it works. It just does. I do have some suppositions, but they are not provable. I do think it works as a mirror.
But, quick answer: yes, i totally do think there is a good amount of mystery in it, which i find fascinating, and worthy of being the study of a lifetime.

 

[IrfanK]

About this, I do differ, since Confucius is pronounced Kung Tse in chinese, which doesn't has that much of a phonetic resemblance with Fu Xi.

No, sorry, I didn't mean that they were meant to be the same person. Just that they were both acclaimed as great sages whom you could say were responsible for all sorts of "ancient" teachings.

 

[Plutonian]

No, sorry, I didn't mean that they were meant to be the same person. Just that they were both acclaimed as great sages whom you could say were responsible for all sorts of "ancient" teachings.

Oh, no, i though you were showing me a phonetic coincidence between conFUCIus and Fu Xi! I know you didn't mean to identify them both as the same person

 

[dfreed]

Translating 元 as "fundamental" .... Kung Tse doesn't use the character 元 as "great", but instead as "origin".

I'm not clear what your goal or goals are here? Perhaps you are just exploring the varied translations of different Chinese characters, and in one instance, the character 元 , or 'yuan'? Or are you wanting to arrive at a definitive, (accurate, correct, perfect) translation of the first phrase of the Yi, "Yuan Heng Li Zhen"? Or do you have some other (or multiple) goals in mind?

Setting your goal aside for a moment, one important issue that stands out for me is that you are discussing what 元 'means' in terms of the various translations into other languages; in other words, you are not really looking at what Fuxi, or Confucius, or Lao Tzu, or the other ancient sages and diviners are saying, or what their actual meanings are; instead, you are looking at what other's translations - and in most cases, Europeans and people from the Americas - are saying about what the Chinese characters mean (or meant).

An example of this is your comments about the "phonetic coincidence" between conFUCIus and FuXi! What you actually have here are two names 孔夫子 and 伏羲 (I think I have the correct characters) and you are noting how parts of the English words 'look' or 'sound' the same, but that doesn't really deal at all with meaning - at least as far as I can tell.

It's like in English, we have 'train' and 'train' - one of which runs on a track and the other one is something you do to teach, so you can "train someone to operate at train". We also have 'Trane', a nickname for the musician John Coltrane. So we have words that sound the same but mean very different things - and are used in different ways!

Adding to this is the issue of how the Yi and Chinese language and culture has changed over thousands of years and many dynasties and kingdoms, and through the eyes of many, many people with their quite varied philosophies - Diviners, Taoist, Confucianist, Neo-Confucianist, Buddhist, Yin/Yang School'ers, Image and Numbers folk, the Legalist .... and many more ....

... and so to say that a particular translation of one particular word is too vague, or too deep, or that it has too many meanings, or that it's unclear ... or that it carries too many implications (every-day to cosmic), or that you (personally) like one translation over another .... I think (perhaps unfortunately for you if you're seeking clarity) this is all true - and it means yours is an impossible (or at the very least, extremely difficult) task if you are looking for any sort of 'one, true meaning'.

I admit, at times I've done something similar, but presently I'm not really interested in going down these particular (and many) rabbit holes. I just don't feel the need. And considering that getting Hex. 1 with no moving lines is pretty rare, I don't know why I'd want to spend so much time on it. Personally, I'm I don't think it carries that much significance to the overall meaning and use of the Yi. (And this might account for our different 'approaches'.)

*********

A few years ago, I attended a weekend workshop in NYC with Harmen Mesker. One of the people there shared this idea about the Yi: building on the idea of a 'magic talking book'; there resonance and intelligence built into the act of divination, so the Yi 'knows' what translation we're using, and also the person's 'real' question or need (even if it's not clearly stated).

*********

Considering the above - and what else I've gathered - my current approach is:

* Right now, I have two translations I especially like, by Stephen Field and Richard Rutt. These are the ones I use, almost always only using one at a time. (About a month ago I got rid of about three-fourths of my Yi's, but I do have a half dozen or so I've kept.)

* I consider the titles (e.g. names/handles) of the hexagrams, and I work with the Zhouyi's text and the trigrams - and in particular I look for connections between the hexagram, trigrams and words. And what is most noteworthy is, I work with the imagery of all of these.

* Essential to my approach is, I consider the query or question (which I don't think has to be specific or correctly stated) to be an integral part of the reading. Having Hex. 3.4.6 in one reading will be entirely different than having Hex. 3.4.5 in another because these are two entirely different queries by two entirely different people (or at least that's how it usually works out!)

* Sometimes - especially when a line or lines seem to be saying or showing me something that's contrary or contradictory (or confusing), I'll think of the response as if it's a dream or a myth - there is nothing in dreams nor myths that requires them to be accurate, or 'right', or in order, or even understandable - but still we find meaning in them. So, too with the Yi.

* Very occasionally I look at other translations or at some comments, or commentaries.

* All of this is the 'usual' way I approach a reading - but these are (ask Harmen likes to say) only guidelines, not rules.

Though not the same, my 'approach' reminds me of the early divination examples that Richard Rutt shares in his Zhouyi; I was struck with how varied and creative some of the early diviners were.

I was just looking at Wilhelm's I Ching and at the varied ways he uses - or the Confucians use - trigram Li (Flame) - sometimes in combination with other trigrams or lines; we find Li as: clarity, light, enlightenment; 'the absence of blood and fear'' eye, the sun; weapons (something harmful), ruler; it "clarifies and orders everything'; fetters (chains, restraints); a cow, a tortoise, a pheasant (and hence, the idea of flying); clinging; "it stands in the south and represents summer" .....

..... One thing I conclude from this is that even the orderly and moral Confucians seemed to have quite a bit of variety and creativity in how they worked with the Yi!

And so, in one way, mine is a very simple approach, where I'm not considering dozens of translations or commentaries (all of which are so widely available today) - and nor am I looking for accuracy, or perfection, or .... On the other hand, it is not at all simple or simplified.

*********

Getting back to your inquiries about Yuan, Bradford Hatcher list about 40 words or 'glosses' for this one Chinese character, including many you've mentioned: yuan - 元 supreme, sublime, first, first-rate, preeminent, superlative, excellent, ultimate, superior, unique, leading, finest, greatest, prime, primary, priority, principle; principal, chief, top, head, leader, eldest, basic, fundamental, original, essential; beginning, source, cause, basis, origin; most ....

He also says of Yuan Heng Li Zhen:
"This sentence, which begins the Zhouyi, is to me without question the most overthought and over-elaborated statement in the long history of the Yijing. I read it as a simple bit of advice which has been rendered all but invisible by its obviousness and clarity, loosely: "The greatest rewards are the result of sustained hard work."

**********************

Richard Rutt gives examples of how Chinese words have changed, in particular from the time of the Zhou to the Han era. For the opening words of the Yi, we have:

Yuan - SUPREME > original > great > very > SUBLIME
Heng - sacrifice > OFFERING > make / get offereing > recieved > penetration > SUCCESS
Li - incisive > FAVORABLE > profitable > FURTHER
Zhen - DETERMINE BY AUGURY (oracle or omen) > resolution > PERSERVERANCE.

The first capitalized word is what may have been the meaning at or around the time the Zhouyi was written (900-800 BC), and it's the one Rutt makes use of in his translation. The second capitalized word is from around the HAN (approx. 200BC - 200AD) and it's what was used in later (e.g. Confucian) translations. So we get:

Supreme offering. Favorable augury. (Rutt's translation)

THE CREATIVE works sublime success, Furthering through perseverance. (Wilhelm's translation)

... and so getting back to how I approach the Yi - and the notions of resonance and magic (as discussed) if I'm using Rutt, I work with his translation; if I'm using Wilhelm, I use his translation (or at least start with these - since there are no rules).

Best, D.

 

[dfreed]

Vipassana meditation, too: (we) practitioners like to say that we have rediscovered Gautama's original teachings -- but we're kidding ourselves, really. There isn't any evidence that it was practiced until quite late in the 19th century.

Being of that tradition, my take on this is a bit different (but subject to learning more). I think the tradition is based on the earliest written teachings of the Buddha (going back thousands of years, but written after his death). Many people within this tradition study and rely upon these early Buddhist 'scriptures', so hence the notion of 'original'. But I wonder if the 'rediscovery' of these teachings is referring to the fact that they are more recently being translated (from the original Pali) and are therefore being more widely read and shared.

People have been practicing meditation based on these teachings for thousands of years, but particular 'schools' within this tradition come and go. One is the 'Thai Forest Tradition', which has its 'roots' with Ajahn Mun (1870–1949). I wonder then if this might be why some people pick a 19th Century date. This tradition has been carried on, most notably by Ajahn Chah (1918 - 1992) another Thai forest monk, who in turn taught many westerners, including Americans Jack Kornfield and Ajahn Sumedho, founder and former abbot of Chithurst (UK) Monastery.

As I understand it, Theravada is called the "School of the Elders" and Vipassana is one form of meditation practiced within this tradition. All this is further complicated by the fact that another term - or school - Hinayana is also used, which is called "the smaller (or lesser) vehicle" - which some people mistakenly think means its a lesser form of meditation or inferior teaching, and therefore won't get you as far spiritually as the Mayayana, or 'great vehicle', and neither of these will get you near as far as the Vajrayana (the thunderbolt vehicle" or "diamond vehicle") which is practiced by the Tibetan Buddhist!

I recently began a year-long course of study with Dza Rinpoche a Tibetan mediation teacher who lives nearby. The course started with a weekend Zoom retreat, which opened with chants and mantras in Tibetan. Being from the 'lesser school' and only having practiced insight (or vipassana) mediation - without chanting in a foreign language and largely without ritual - I felt completely lost, and immediately thought I had made a HUGE mistake signing up for a year-long course.

However, in his follow-up talk and the brief Zoom interview I had with him (where I laid bare my confusion), Rinpoche simple smiled and said I should just continue doing the meditation practice I'm doing, and if I find a phrase or a few words in the chants that interested me, to just focus on that - and that I shouldn't worry about the rest.

I draw a bit of an analogy with learning the Yi. We can approach it in many different ways, and they don't always have to be complicated or include the highest, or most perfect, or most 'correct' approaches.

This goes along with what I read this morning about one of the teachings of the Lotus Sutra (from around 100 AD), that all Buddhist paths and practices lead to Buddhahood and so they are all merely "skillful means" (perhaps, we might call them different methods?). I think the same can be applied to studying the Yi. (It should be noted that the Lotus Sutra is not part of the 'school of the elders' - and so I assume might not be a central Vipassana teaching - but it's still good stuff).

D

 

[Plutonian]

"The greatest rewards are the result of sustained hard work."

Well I must say Bradford does have a point. This is a very good way to put it!

D, your comment is extense and really instructive, i can't add much more than a big Thank You. You taught me a lot there. The Bradford viewpoint is actually pretty accurate, and pragmatic. I also think Wilhelms approach is deeper and of great metaphysical meaning. I guess it all revolves around the type of reading one desires to do of the book, if a metaphysical, a moral, a psychological or an oracular one (using these just as examples, there sure are many others).

An example of this is your comments about the "phonetic coincidence" between conFUCIus and FuXi!

And yes, of course i know this, i was answering a misunderstanding with the previous commentary, precisely based on the fact you mention.

I work with the imagery of all of these.

Could you explain this a bit further?

Saludos!
J.

 

[dfreed]

I also think Wilhelms approach is deeper ....

As I understand it, Wilhelm studied with Chinese scholars whom were well-versed in the Yi, so his 'translation' is based - I assume - largely from what he learned from them, which was within the Confucian tradition.

In his book III Wilhelm gets into the 'nuts and bolts' behind what the Yi's text says and means, and he often uses trigrams (including nuclear trigrams) and line placement and appropriateness to explain the text. Wang Bi does the same, but in different way I believe. I don't use these same 'techniques' - since I don't look at line appropriateness etc., nor do I consider yin/yang. For a long time I never looked at these, since I'm not big on commentaries, but when I finally did, I was surprised (and joyed) to see how much he uses trigrams in his commentary (as does Wang Bi, though he felt diviners before him had gone way overboard with the trigrams - and were using them in very far-fetched ways!)

Work with the imagery: Could you explain this a bit further?

This comes out of my studying with Harmen Mesker. My understand (though Harmen might describe it differently) is that much of the Yi's meaning is conveyed in it's imagery (xiang) which can be found in the text, (and also trigrams and hexagrams).

You are familiar with this 'imagery', since we find it throughout the Yi:

55.2 - The Capital in shadow, the ladle appears in the middle of the sun.
One who takes a journey will get the doubting disease.
There will be captives, as if commencing. Good fortune. (Stephen Field)

Here I can find/see images (or imagery): Shadows, a Ladle; someone getting sick if they go on a journey. captives .... and so I can then work with this these, even if I don't know the history these words might be based on, or without filtering it through a particular Confucian outlook, etc. I could of course know a bit more about this: that the Ladle might refer to the Big Dipper, or that an eclipse or large dust storm happened on a certain day in history .... but that's not necessary.

'How' I interpret this is more involved, and would include a particular query or question that was being responded to. What immediately (and very broadly) comes to mind - and is only meant as one example of many ways of seeing this:

.... we can find light (the Ladle) within darkness (Shadow), but it may require that we be present (not go on a journey) ....

... that sort of thing. (You can look at my interpretations in Shared Readings to see how I work with this).

Best, D

 

[dfreed]

it all revolves around the type of reading one desires to do of the book,

There was someone in another thread who said that the Yi was meant or designed, or built to only answer internal questions, not external ones (I think I have that about right), and that the Yi would only answer questions of a spiritual or psychological nature, but not if someone were asking "What should I serve for dinner tonight"? (He stated this as a given, as if it's "rule of Yi", and not just his own preference or limited view.)

I don't create such cut-and-dry distinctions. I think oracles answer our questions, period - though I tend to shy away from questions asking about the future.

I don't think we always need nor want to ask about the big picture - but we often need advice and direction about our daily lives. The cross-over I think is that sometimes the response involves both: someone might ask about their boyfriend, and the answer can be practical and also touch upon a deeper, or spiritual aspect; and I think the Yi can do all this, all at the same time.

But I don't think we need a different approach, or a different set of meanings, or that we need to read more or different commentaries, etc. just because the questions are different! We don't have to make the Yi more spiritual or cosmic, nor more practical or down-to-earth - it already contains all of that.

This leads me back to asking,

what (are) your goal or goals here?

You need not reply, but your statement about 'types of readings' made me curious.

Perhaps you are just exploring ... translations of different Chinese characters (i.e. the character 元 , or 'yuan')? Or are you wanting to arrive at a definitive, - or accurate, correct, perfect - translation of the first phrase of the Yi, "Yuan Heng Li Zhen"? Or do you have some other goals in mind?

 

[dfreed]

Work with the imagery: Could you explain this a bit further?

Oh, and this came to mind too: a (perhaps quirky) response to the question, what should I serve for dinner?

55.2 - The Capital in shadow, the ladle appears in the middle of the sun.
One who takes a journey will get doubt .... Good fortune. (Stephen Field)

Perhaps - I should make a dark soup - maybe black bean (ladle within a shadow), and serve it hot, not cold (the sun). But I shouldn't get carried away with the spices - stick with what I know: salt, pepper, onions, celery - but don't add spices I'm not familiar with, i.e. curry powder ("journey of doubt") ....

D

 

[dfreed]

J, if I were to pick out the most important point I've made, I'd say it's this, below. This doesn't mean you shouldn't explore as you've been doing, but just keep in mind, you are reading and responding to translations and interpretations - which are quite varied, and can be of inconsistent quality.

.... you are discussing what 元 and other words 'mean' in terms of the various translations into other languages; in other words, you are not really looking at what Fuxi, or Confucius, or Lao Tzu, or the other ancient sages and diviners are saying, or what their actual meanings are; instead, you are looking at what other's are saying about what the Chinese characters mean (or meant) and in most cases, these are translations from Europeans and people from the Americas ....

 

[Plutonian]

Hi D, sorry for the delay.
So, first of all, want to get something out of the way:

You say this:

J, if I were to pick out the most important point I've made, I'd say it's this, below. This doesn't mean you shouldn't explore as you've been doing, but just keep in mind, you are reading and responding to translations and interpretations - which are quite varied, and can be of inconsistent quality.

Yet, I actually wrote, earlier:

What I notice here, is that Kung Tse doesn't use the character 元 as "great", but instead as "origin". He uses the character 大 to indicate greatness. I checked Lao Tse chapter XXV, and I find he (or them) use the same character (大), to express greatness, yet no sign of 元.

The whole inquiry was born out of the fact that in the sentence commentary, attributed, presumably, to Kung Tse (CONFUCIUS), uses the character 元 and 大 in the same sentence, which means he doesn't use 元 as "great", as many translators do, but instead uses 大 to express "vast, great". This led me to ask myself if the translations of "YUAN" as "GREAT" were actually accurate or not.

Then, I moved on to Laozi, to see if he used YUAN as great, and yet, again, he does not: he uses 大 to indicate greatness, as one can see in chapter XXV of the Daodejing.

Then, i searched for the use of "origin" in Laozi, and I found he uses a different character to indicate "origin". Yet, it is translated as "origin" when (presumably) Confucius used it in his commentary on QIans sentence.

Oh, and this came to mind too: a (perhaps quirky) response to the question, what should I serve for dinner?

This is actually a brilliant, very creative way of interpreting a hexagrams form. I see you mostly work, as you said, with trigrams meaning. I tend to see more at positions and lines, and how they operate. Its very passionate to find out different techniques, and to be able to learn from eachothers. I hope we can further exchange knowledge of this sort. I'd say, maybe your technique is more "semantic"? More based in symbols and its meanings? Mine, which I'm still developing, but my intuition leads me that way, is based on the base nature of positions and lines, how they interact, how they come and go, how they exchange places, where they do this, etc.

I don't create such cut-and-dry distinctions. I think oracles answer our questions, period - though I tend to shy away from questions asking about the future.

I agree in not making those absolute distinctions. And I too am not comfortable with questions about the future. I just search for answers in and for the here and now, as anchor points of which i can cling to make a correct decision. Also, to see how the trends are, and not opposing them if not urgent.

I'm not clear what your goal or goals are here?

to share, exchange and discuss these matters, in order to learn of different viewpoints than mine.

it already contains all of that.

indeed, it does contain all the world, according to the dazhuan