Interpretation protocol

[urim]

I was wondering if it is 'politically correct' i.e. - appropriate etc. to 'the spirit of
the I ching' to mix and match different themed judgements of hexagrams with
lines.
For example--- Hex 45 which is generally enterpreted as GATHERING can also be
interpreted as ILLNESS according to some translations. What if the judgement and
main interpretation of the hexagram themed GATHERING resonate with the question at hand but the line # doesn't, but the line # in a different translation which is themed
--ILLNESS does apply better?

cheers
Urim

 

[hilary]

45 as 'Illness'? Sounds weird - which book is this?

Normally I would say look at as many interpretations and translations as you please - not in search of the one you like best, but in search of what they have in common. But here it looks like you have versions with nothing in common at all - almost as if you're working with two different oracles that just happen to be accessed via the same hexagrams. And in that case, mightn't it be better to know which oracle you're consulting before you start?

 

[Trojina]

Kerson and Rosemary Huang have 45 as 'Illness' in their translation, they also have 38 as 'Abandoned' , 34 as 'Great Injury' and 16 as 'Weariness' ??

 

[hilary]

OK, this is embarrassing... that one's on my shelf, and I think I may even have reviewed it before forgetting its contents completely. It's one of those I might gather a few ideas from, but (obviously ...) not consult with regularly. I can't imagine mixing and matching, as I can't imagine 16 meaning 'weariness'. Sometimes different interpretations blend (you can see how 34 can become 'great injury', I think), sometimes they just don't.

 

[urim]

Yup... Kerson and Rosemary Huang's I ching was the one I had in mind.
So if I read u correctly - Hilary- you suggest I have one particular translation/oracle
in mind before consulting the I Ching and then stick to that translation for the
answer, disregarding other translations? I have about 20 or so translations
on my bookshelf, Wilhelm, Alfred Huang's, Palmer, Karcher, Lynn etc. ( I like
collecting 'em) and I find some differ widely-- i.e.-- Take Karcher's #44 and just about
anybody else's #44 and compare readings.
BTW thanks for the reply.

cheers
Urim

 

[urim]

Just an afterthought... in defense of Kerson & Rosemary Huang's version--
at least it appears to be a scholarly effort at getting back to the original meaning
of the I Ching without any fancy paraphrasing fantasies... although it does seem
to raise a lot of eyebrows...hmm...

Urim

 

[hilary]

Normally, no, I wouldn't suggest deciding on and sticking to one translation. Actually I'm all in favour of comparing, contrasting and seeking out the foundational meaning under the different translators' responses. (That's how I first started getting an idea of #44 - comparing Karcher and just about anybody else.) It's just that finding a common foundation between 'Gathering Together' and 'Illness' is beyond me - and I'm wary of the idea of jumping between translations in search of bits that fit. It'd be hard to find a coherent way to understand and act on a reading that was half-Gathering, half-Illness, wouldn't it?

 

[dobro p]

It'd be hard to find a coherent way to understand and act on a reading that was half-Gathering, half-Illness, wouldn't it?

Oh, I don't know... I'd share my crack pipe with you any day, Hilary.

 

[Trojina]

I suppose in illness the body gathers its defenses to meet the threat - and 45 generally talks about making oneself ready in order to meet the unforseen. I guess illness is generally unforseen until it is upon one. A tenuous link but kind of a link

 

[meng]

I can see a plausible link between 45 and illness, in that you can gather the causes for the illness to yourself, physically and mentally. 45 is indiscriminating, so it's we who must discriminate.

As for the PC of mixing IC versions, who cares? Who is testing? What works best for one won't work best for everyone.

 

[Sparhawk]

Handy...

The sixty-four hexagrams: some translations of hexagram names by Richard J. Smith

 

[maremaria]

Sometimes, to me, interpretation of a hexagram remind me playing scrabble or magnetic poetry game. We are given some “random” letters or words and try to make something meaningful .

 

[meng]

I don't recall the thread, but somewhere here, awhile back, Brad spoke of vertical and horizontal applications of hexagram meanings. Made a lot of sense to me, and said what I've not been able to put into words very well.

On one hand, one hexagram represents a huge amount of landscape. On the other hand, that landscape is very specific. So it is generously tall, but its horizontal borders are precise. That's the danger of being too liberal with what this or that hexagram means: you leave the borders of the actual meaning. But vertically, the applications can be from completely practical and down to earth, to extending through countless applicable scenarios.

Hope I didn't butcher that too badly, Brad.

 

[maremaria]

.
....... Brad spoke of vertical and horizontal applications of hexagram meanings. .....

......... That's the danger of being too liberal with what this or that hexagram means: you leave the borders of the actual meaning. ......
.

Sounds like one is searching for a spot where he can dig a well and find water . Somebody who knows, tells him “here is the right spot. Here you should dig to find what you want” Like Yi give us an answer –hexagram(s).
He starts digging for a while but can’t find anything and moves further to other spots. But the water is where he was told. No other choice than dig , dig , dig deeper.

What I like, among other things, in Brad’s work is the sections “keywords” and “glossary”. Pondering on what Yi want to tell me , I go there and read those sections. Sometimes a words clicks in my mind and “voila !!!”

Do you or Brad say sometime like that ? "Don’t go far away, stay there and dig " ?

Maria

 

[meng]

What a perfect analogy: vertical digging into a hexagram - 48.

Now, how about climbing? 46?

What of the horizontal borders? 60?

 

[mudpie]

I forgot about huang's book. for some reason, I always thought "illness" for 45 was very apt. I guess because my image of illness brings to mind this idea of all the white blood cells gathering around the site of the sickness/infection/thing that needs to be healed. without the illness, there is no gathering

Also, somewhere, I had seen an image for 45 that was the washington monument with a huge throng of people gathering around it. It seemed to imply a time of unrest when people or things or elements tend to come togethr to create a powerful source of resolution. This is also true in the psyche.

The idea of mending seems to fit with gathering togethr. you mend a sweater by gathering together the loose ends.

So Huang's 'illness' seems to imply the inate capacity for recovery. In any case 45 is never just about a group, is it? It is about the process of things/people coming togther. a parade, or a family reuniion, is also an assembling...and seemingly minus the "illness" factor...and yet there is always a central purpose for the gathering, an attempt to strengthen or make whole.

 

[meng]

Hmm, I'd interpret the antibodies as hex. 7.

 

[meng]

I never get the "oh goody" feeling when receiving 45. Just the opposite, it's more of a "hoo boy" feeling (illness?), because I know that gathering brings all kinds of stuff downstream, not just the good, fun or easy stuff. To me, the king entering his temple is the individual assuming authority and responsibly for delegating and discriminating what is good for the kingdom and what is not.

 

[urim]

Just like to say a big thanks for all the insightful posts re #45. After reading
the comments I must say I agree with those folks that find 'Illness' a rather odd
interpretation. So far, I can't find any translation other than Kerson Huang's
that translates it this way, although LiSe's site says one of the characters in the
ideogram suggests sudden death or accident... interesting....hmm.
I find the interpretation of the ancient ideograms quite fascinating and the more
I delve into it the more sympathy I have for the translators.

Urim

 

[maremaria]

Now, how about climbing? 46?

What of the horizontal borders? 60?

Yes and yes.

I'm little confused about 45. Is it a time we hear an " alarm" and try to objerve the situation and gather information needed to appreciate the whole matter and then design our strategy. Its a time we just prepare ourself for an upcoming threat ?
i.e. Like scanning all the internal and external factors that might have an influences on the curent or future situation and indentifying which are favarable and which unfavorable ?

In business, before a new venture take place, or a new product launge they contact such an analysis. They examine the inward and outward enviroment and based on those gathered information the are planning the venture. I see 7 the next step, where the 7 leader organize the actions.

 

[hilary]

In business, before a new venture take place, or a new product launge they contact such an analysis. They examine the inward and outward enviroment and based on those gathered information the are planning the venture. I see 7 the next step, where the 7 leader organize the actions.

That always seems to me like a pure 20 moment.
‘The ancient kings inspected the regions,
Saw the common people,
And established their teachings.’
Heaven help you if you establish your teachings or launch your product without Seeing anything.

I think 45 already knows exactly what it's all for. We have progress to make, a mountain to climb or a summit to reach - 46. We'll gather together all we have to invest it in that.

 

[meng]

I think 45 already knows exactly what it's all for. We have progress to make, a mountain to climb or a summit to reach - 46. We'll gather together all we have to invest it in that.

Really? hmm... I see it more as an organic process: it's only purpose is continued survival. But maybe we're saying the same thing? That is, if 'knowing what it's all for' includes the purely hardwired instinctual level. But then what about the pure causal level, such as snow melting from mountain peaks, forming streams, which gather upon the earth as a lake?

 

[hilary]

Not quite the same thing, I think. (That'd be boring ) 45's Judgement evokes lots of purposeful energy, to me. Harvest - harvest - harvest. Great people, great sacrificial animals, direction to go. I get the sense of a huge investment, and needing to have a vision of a scale to match the investment. Not sure whether the vision has to be conscious... I think it'd help, though.

There is another way to see 45-46, suggested by the sequence. It says something like, 'gathering together and also above necessarily means pushing upward'. Just because there's this gathering of resource and there's something higher (in any sense you like) we could attain, the ascent happens. So it works both ways - push and pull.

45 would only be an 'oh goody' hexagram for me if I was just waiting for permission to pour my whole self into something - not if I had the smallest reservation about it.

 

[maremaria]

I was thinking the text from the Image “Thus the superior man renews his weapons, In order to meet the unforeseen.” , and the “lake” in the image as a pool of information.

Pondering….
Before making the 46 step we evaluate our strengths and weakness related to that specific “action” and what is out there (opportunities and threads) . This knowledge is necessary for the next step, to handle the situation in the most appropriate way, to secure our position, in a way.

took me 2 hours to connect.... telecommunication problems due to snow !!!

 

[meng]

still mulling...

I guess it's silly to strip a hexagram of its human uses, but that is what I've done to all of them. They're easier for me to process if I identify with their natural (and so amoral, unbiased and innocent) functions.

I see no ulterior intent in 45, other than to take advantage of the time of gathering, to further the survival of the organism. So, again, maybe we say the same thing... almost sorta.

 

[meng]

It is a question, to me at least, of whether man is separate from nature. I mean, the king can represent a queen ant or bee, or a seed, nut or pod, which was washed downstream. Sacrifice can mean getting beaten up in the process. It furthers to undertake something, because the time favors it.

 

[maremaria]

I quess that my initial example has confuse me. Better forget it for a while.

 

[meng]

Just to clarity, I'm not saying we can't effectuate 45, or that we are limited to being observers only. Part of the actual effectuation may include pressing onward and upward to accomplish something worthwhile. I'm saying, before human application, there is a natural application. It is the book of changes, not the book of humans. Moreover, approaching a time and circumstance in a natural way gets better results than one which is strictly humanly contrived.

 

[hilary]

Maybe my take on it is the human-motivation-added version of yours?

Maremaria, there could be information in that pool, but I'm sure there's also emotion by the gallon, sloshing up against the banks.

 

[rosada]

If a fable were to be associated with each of the hexagrams I would nominate "The Little Red Hen" for hexes 45 and 46. As in the fairytale, we have all the barnyard animals Gathering Together but there is no trust, no team effort and ultimately each person feels they are Pushing Upward on their own.