Interpreting H44.5 > H50

[tigerintheboat]

I asked Yi "How can I lose weight?"

Yi answered..."H44.5 > H50"

Any idea how to apply this?

Thanks
Tiger

 

[rosada]

Don't make a big deal about it, but quietly go vegetarian?
-Rosada

 

[tigerintheboat]

Melon

Don't make a big deal about it, but quietly go vegetarian?

Vegetarian because of the melon in Line 5??

Tiger

 

[rodaki]

hi Tiger,

funny, like Rosada I also thought of going vegeterian or eating more steamed food when I read this (something about the leaves I guess . .) but it could also be that the powerful female of 44 is that tantalizing pot with its mouth watering smells () . . maybe this is saying that you need to not 'grab' your food, treat it with respect, meet your need to indulge in it halfway???

just my two-pence . .

 

[meng]

. . maybe this is saying that you need to not 'grab' your food, treat it with respect,

Good thought. It could also include treating your body (the maiden) with respect. The body is the temple and ting. What goes into it should be good enough for the prince.

44 includes giving and carrying out the prince's commands, making ones own orders known to kingdom of your being. Self discipline, in other words. Though here in line 5 is shown gentle persuasion over police action.

 

[steve]

Hi Tiger in the boat

I would see this as choose a healthy diet & stick to it,
yes possibly a balance diet like staying away from the easy to get foods like takeaway
it is interesting the mention of the melons & ripe fruit but wilhelm also mentions "the firm lines of beauty within himself but does not lay stress upon them", I could see that as in this case a form of disipline
Hex 50 could possibly mean find a healthy diet that you will really like as there are plenty of them out there, something tasty but healthy

So I agree with everyone on this one
on your comment I had to laugh Vegetarian because of the melon in Line 5??
Tough time of the year to start a diet but good luck
you can do it

Steve

 

[rosada]

Hi Tiger,
I see you private emailed me about this so I guess i should respond but i'll tell you I am very superstitious about hexagram 44. It seems once you start talking about it it will never let you stop!
But anyway, yes i got the idea for going on a vegetarian, maybe even fruitetarian , diet from the melon in 44.5. But if that is too extreme, and I do think 44.5 is saying no need to go to extremes, then I think 44 is advising you to just eat fresh, healthy food and not to try to lose the weight too quickly.

Best wishes,
Rosada

 

[my_key]

I asked Yi "How can I lose weight?"

Yi answered..."H44.5 > H50"

Hi Tiger
The thread seems to have homed in on diet and there is a strong body of evidence that dietis important in losing weight. There is an element I see in this reading that is more than that. It is perhaps one of giving respect and gratitude for what you have. By being grateful for what you have now the ground is being prepared for the changes to come.
Hex 50 is talking about the sacredness in all things....entwining the spiritual in what you undertake and being true.
Rodaki's comment makes a lot of good sense....it's as much about how you see your relationship with your weight and your food now, as well as how you go forward. This may be a useful side dish..........

http://mydailygoddess.blogspot.com/2008/04/corn-woman-nourshment.html

Be Well
Mike

 

[rosada]

Good point, Mike. Maybe 44.5 is saying don't worry about diet at all.
"The maiden is powerful." The Unconscious is powerful.
"One should not marry such a maiden." One should not focus on what we don't want. Rather, affirm what we do want to be true by
"disseminating [one's] commands and proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven"

So perhaps throwing out the scales and affirming "I am at my divine right weight", focusing on what you do want rather than on what you don't and Ta-Dah, the weight drops off like a melon falling off a vine.
-rosada

 

[tigerintheboat]

Tigers and Melons

Good point, Mike. Maybe 44.5 is saying don't worry about diet at all.
"The maiden is powerful." The Unconscious is powerful.
"One should not marry such a maiden." One should not focus on what we don't want. Rather, affirm what we do want to be true by
"disseminating [one's] commands and proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven"

So perhaps throwing out the scales and affirming "I am at my divine right weight",

I am coming around to the idea of H44 as saying not to try to mess with the body's desire for food, that it is too strong. That seems right in my case, anyway.

As far as the "divine right weight", hmmm, I don't know about that! The temple I live in could be in better shape.

Now, my current thought is that Line 5 predicts the future (a magic melon will fall from the tree, solving the problem, and creating a Caldron. My guess is that this melon will take the form of supplements that reduce the need for food.

Tiger

 

[philish]

‘Using willow to wrap melons.
Containing [cherishing] a thing of beauty,
It comes falling from its source in heaven.’

Wrap the melons to protect them as they grow; care for the gift.

The ‘thing of beauty’ is a composition, structure or regime; could be a new form of government - as it seems likely to be at Hexagram 55, line 5 (zhi 49). Stephen Karcher[3] suggests this is the moment when the strong woman, the new queen, completes her journey and meets the king. The imagery certainly implies conception and pregnancy.

Experience: when a gift comes falling from heaven, it’s not likely to be what you were expecting or planning for. You may or may not be able to use it; it may not come to fruition as you imagine.

Experience: Solutions to problems coming from unexpected sources.

44 zhi Hexagram 50: in the Vessel, cooking/incubating – a gift still undergoing transformation, so its final shape isn’t yet visible.

thinking about what the wiki wing says, you might want to keep your eyes open for all options --unexpected resources.

I also thing the wrapped melon saved for later could literally mean prepare something you find desirable, tasty, and healthy and have that prepared for later when you're hungry and inclined to reach for easy but unhealthy food. Prepare good stuff for later. End the empty calorie munchies?

 

[ginnie]

Hi Tiger,

These are all my thoughts on your question:

(1) Maybe you have already asked this question:

"Why am I overweight?"

It is just so difficult to rectify a situation if you don't know what the root cause of it is.

(2) Doesn't H44 stand for temptations? One type of temptation you might be confronted with are propositions -- in the form of business contracts.

In Joseph Murphy's Secrets of the I Ching, he says about H44 in general: "If someone approaches you with any sort of a proposition, it would be wise to forego it. A contract of any kind should be based on honesty and should be mutually satisfactory."

Maybe you are being oppressed by tempting offers in your business -- offers you feel you cannot refuse? When we are in business, we think we have to accept certain clients because to do so will bring in money. But isn't the profit motive regarded by the I Ching as rather an ulterior motive most of the time? Whereas with H50, the Ting, our motives must be generosity and lack of self interest, otherwise we cannot prosper.

(3) In Whincup's translation, he calls H44 "Subjugated." What a word!

He says: "The person who receives this hexagram in divination is told to remain independent for as long as he can. If he joins someone, he will be swallowed up and subjugated."

"A fall sent by Heaven," says Whincup of line 5 moving.

Like a melon in a willow twig bag,
His brilliance is hidden:
A fall sent by Heaven.

He is subjugated by a great ruler and given no chance to display his talents. But since this misfortune has been sent by Heaven, it must be accepted.

Apparently Fate is operating here. I am thinking: Maybe there are benefits hidden inside those willow leaves. That is usually the case with 44.5 > 50. Do the benefits outweigh being caught in the situation described above? Or do you still have any "wiggle room" to free yourself completely?

(4) Business aside, food is a powerful temptation in itself, of course. Spiritual practices and methods are considered to be the only way to overcome truly powerful temptations.

For example, I was in Nicotine Anonymous for many years as I struggled to overcome my addiction to smoking cigarettes. Lord only knows how I finally got free of that bad habit! It took so many years! I don't want to tell you how many years!

But AA and the Anonymous movement is built upon the principle that only a Higher Power can save us from some of these temptations that flesh is heir to. Looking at the situation from a secular point of view may no longer be possible. Maybe what's in the cards is H50 -- spiritual growth.

 

[ginnie]

Now I'm wishing I could erase just about all of what I wrote above. It seems like every translator/commentator has a different opinion about hexagram 44.

I tend to see the concept of protection in 44.5. The medlar tree overspreads the gourd beneath it, or the willow leaves protect the delicate melon, so easily bruised. Something precious is being protected, cherished, or enfolded -- Sometimes two people can enfold each other in this spirit; in the sheltering arms of each other.

Is the casting of the Ting only a wish, a dream? I think it means that the matter under discussion needs to be continually stirred. The fire underneath needs to be constantly tended. Our mood must be consistently one of kindness and offering our strength to others. Not thinking about what we personally can get out of it.

I was in a health food store and was startled to see a slim, well-dressed woman standing still in an aisle eating a sandwich that was still partially wrapped in plastic. One of the oddest things I ever saw. I have seen people eating big ham sandwiches on our buses. People routinely eat their lunch while riding on the subway system. People walk down the streets eating slices of pizza, not even bothering to sit down.

Overeating is a huge public health problem with very few solutions that anybody seems to have a handle on at the present time.

 

[tigerintheboat]

Lovely Rita Whincup

Ginnie, thanks for all your work here. A big tasty stew of ideas...

(1) Maybe you have already asked this question:"Why am I overweight?"

Well, no I haven't. "Why" questions never seem that useful to me, but I will consider it. I think I know why, and it hasn't helped solve the problem.

(2) Doesn't H44 stand for temptations? One type of temptation you might be confronted with are propositions -- in the form of business contracts.

In general, I don't have any trouble walking away from business that is inappropriate for some reason: too big, too unprofitable, undesirable client. I can connect that to a bad outcome. But when I am eating and want food, I don't connect that to a bad outcome. Especially during "weak periods", I don't connect unwanted eating to a bad outcome. The comparison of the two things (sexy business deals and attractive foods) seemed outlandish at first, but it is growing on me. In 2010, the temptation might come upon me to take on bad business, and I appreciate the warnings.

(3) In Whincup's translation, he calls H44 "Subjugated." What a word!

He has, as you have pointed out, a military orientation.

He says: "The person who receives this hexagram in divination is told to remain independent for as long as he can. If he joins someone, he will be swallowed up and subjugated."

"A fall sent by Heaven," says Whincup of line 5 moving.

Like a melon in a willow twig bag,
His brilliance is hidden:
A fall sent by Heaven.

He is subjugated by a great ruler and given no chance to display his talents. But since this misfortune has been sent by Heaven, it must be accepted.

I have always seen Line 5 as a completely positive omen, that there is a magic melon, protected and dropped from Heaven, available to me, if I can find it, that will solve the problem and let me deal with the situation, no matter how powerful. Whincup has a much more negative take on the "fall" than I have ever seen. I thought the solution fell from heaven.

Business aside, food is a powerful temptation in itself, of course. Spiritual practices and methods are considered to be the only way to overcome truly powerful temptations.

For example, I was in Nicotine Anonymous for many years as I struggled to overcome my addiction to smoking cigarettes...

But AA and the Anonymous movement is built upon the principle that only a Higher Power can save us from some of these temptations that flesh is heir to.

So how do you feel about Overeater's Anonymous as a suggested direction, in the light of 44.5 > 50? Whincup says, and it is true generally, that H44 is a force too strong to mess with. Don't attempt to join or master this force, you will be overwhelmed. But the idea that only something from the gods can assist you points to the AA model of yielding to higher powers.

I hadn't made that connection to this reading, but since you brought up twelve step programs, it is something I have thought about, although never really favorably. I can't see myself having a sponsor and calling them at bedtime, when I want to sit down and have a few slices of cheese.

It isn't really that funny...but I can't find quite the right icon to express my emotion.

Tiger

 

[meng]

I think the deal with 44.5 is that you get your way with yourself. You win, because ultimately, you are your own provider, your own empowerer. So, if you choose that you'd rather lose weight than enjoy eating as you currently do, then you accomplish that because it's what you want. There's no fighting over it, it's accomplished gently, as though it falls from heaven.

 

[my_key]

I think the deal with 44.5 is that you get your way with yourself. You win, because ultimately, you are your own provider, your own empowerer. So, if you choose that you'd rather lose weight than enjoy eating as you currently do, then you accomplish that because it's what you want. There's no fighting over it, it's accomplished gently, as though it falls from heaven.

Yep....the wind blows away the inner cobwebs of doubt bringing to us in our world a real taste of the heavenly creation.

In Coming to Meet, there seems to be a sense of whatever you choose to do will be right for you now. You choose what's right for you now and then it'll happen, hey presto just like that.
It's important to realise though that there is only one person who knows what is right. 5 years ago or in 5 years time you might choose something different but right now what you choose is what you choose and you'll get it. A real win / win situation, because the doubts have been blown away and this time you know what you are doing is right.

Mike

 

[ginnie]

Maybe Use A Health Coach

So how do you feel about Overeater's Anonymous as a suggested direction, in the light of 44.5 > 50? Tiger

I know a woman attending OA for approx. the past 15 years and she has gotten so round about the middle that now she is perfectly spherical . . .

I eat for comfort. I am a perpetually uncomfortable individual.

Tasty foods are pleasures. Pile up the pleasures and they turn into their opposite, clogged arteries and triple bypass operations. Spiritual teachers have always tried to teach us (reluctant learners) the hazards of falling prey to pleasures, which inevitably reverse and turn into pains.

Putting what we already know into practice -- that's the thing.

What about a trained health coach? Coaching is a fast-growing profession, and personally I regard it in a very favorable light.

P.S. The latest brain research says that the best and quickest way to overcome a bad habit is to learn something new. The new learning takes precedence and the old neural pathways literally die away from disuse.

What does this mean in your case? Let your new health coach figure that out . . . .

 

[ginnie]

Astrology

Everybody I know who is a Libra is having serious health issues. Some astrologer fellow told me this is because the planet Saturn went into the sign of Libra, where it will be until October 2012. That darned old planet Saturn is always bringing with it hard tests -- what used to be called "character builders." It brings limitations and obstacles to be overcome -- for our own good, of course.

As I hope you know, I am not an astrologer.

 

[tigerintheboat]

Did the Other Disappear?

I think the deal with 44.5 is that you get your way with yourself. You win, because ultimately, you are your own provider, your own empowerer. So, if you choose that you'd rather lose weight than enjoy eating as you currently do, then you accomplish that because it's what you want. There's no fighting over it, it's accomplished gently, as though it falls from heaven.

I see the poetry of what you are saying...it produces a very lovely image...but the whole point of H44 is that there is an "other", which is a powerful force. The way you describe it, there is no Other, just a change of will...

To translate this into the practical, I have (many times) fasted and given up eating for long periods of time. It is quite an experience, especially if it goes on for weeks. You choose not to eat, and there is an amazing amount of energy for other things.

But one has to return to everyday life and one is immersed again into the same duality. There is still an "other" and it is still a powerful force.

What you are describing above seems to be a dissolution of duality, a high state indeed. I had been thinking that this was a transformation...maybe we are talking about the same thing...

Here is what Hilary says:

"What you have here comes falling into your lap ‘out of the blue’. It is a beginning to receive and nurture with care, as people would wrap a melon to protect it against bruising as it ripens. This is the beginning of an incubation period, like a pregnancy, and the final shape of this ‘thing of beauty’ is still hidden away, growing and transforming..."

So I have been assuming that the answer was that a transformation was or could take place, and that no will power was required.

Tiger

 

[my_key]

So I have been assuming that the answer was that a transformation was or could take place, and that no will power was required.

Hi Tiger
Sometimes I look at it like this.......
Intent aims the gun, will pulls the trigger. Perhaps where we aim and then fire will bring about the transformation......just like that.
Be Well

Mike

 

[ginnie]

If only the Will still existed

In Chinese medicine, I believe the Will is considered to be located in the kidneys. In Western esoteric medicine, the Will is considered to be located in the throat area -- in the functioning of the thyroid gland, to be specific.

What is the Will? The reason I ask is that the word has gone missing from the English language. When do we hear the word will anymore? We never hear it.

In the 1930s the average person knew what the word Will meant. We do not remember this, of course, because most of us were not alive then.

Did people two generations ago possess a fundamental faculty we have completely -- or almost completely -- lost?

In terms of terminology, what would the equivalent be in the world of Yi?

Was the word Will replaced in English by choice? So, in the field of diet, we are supposed to cultivate better food choices.

But Will or Willpower was supposed to be a quality possessed by an individual. To choose is not a quality. It is a process, like a function of something else, an operation. Choice would be the operation of the Will -- if only the Will still existed.

I admit that I myself don't have a whole lot of will. Unless stubbornness qualifies as will.

The dictionary defines will as a mental faculty called volition. But I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

Maybe Wayne Dyer was on the right track when he wrote The Power of Intention, because will and intention are just about synonymous.

I think that in order for a person to set workable intentions, he or she must have some spiritual basis for that. He has to know why he's doing something -- the long-term purpose of it, in other words.

But why even speak of long-term purposes, when the future is disappearing? Most of us were led to believe that our happiness was coming to us on the stream of time and would arrive sometime in the future. The older one gets, the clearer it becomes that the future is never going to arrive.

But even teenagers these days are "going to pot." Instead of feeling confident that they can realize their hopes and dreams and feel happiness in their lives, they might find far more certainty these days in a big bag of chips.

 

[ginnie]

The way you describe it, there is no Other, just a change of will...Tiger

On occasion there is no Other. The situation itself becomes magnetized.

 

[steve]

Hi All
Rosada was right perhaps about hex 44 hear we are still talking. Just a pesonal note on this line. I really like it.
I agree that there is a very lucky if you will like element to this line like a blessing from the sky. Then everything is at your feet
In this context possibly it may mean outside help or maybe you may have a brainstorm as to how lose weight that will best suit you and quite possibly a majical event to this part of your life that is bothering you like you find your soloution.
I feel the oracle is saying healthy food and the images i get of the big pot in this context.
hehe

Interesting discussion anyway espeially to refer back to, I have always liked this line

Steve

 

[ginnie]

I have always liked this line

Steve

H44.5 > 50 points to something truly wanted; truly precious.

Maybe Tiger already knows what he wishes for instead, what he wishes to create. For example, I know that he is in business, but my secret belief is that Tiger is actually an artist. Maybe he wishes to make something of his photography or another art form? Could the overeating have something to do with that? I don't know.

We are all called upon to cook up and make something good out of whatever remains "uncooked" in our lives. Otherwise -- we end up with indigestion

 

[Trojina]

H44.5 > 50 points to something truly wanted; truly precious.

do you think so ? I'm not at all sure about that, hasn't been my experience anyway. A ripe fruit might fall easily but it also spoils easily., decays quickly. I think what falls easily in 44.5 can turn out to be something one is only interested in for a short period of time., not something of lasting value. The lasting value is in 50.5 not in 44.5 IMO

 

[ginnie]

I think what falls easily in 44.5 can turn out to be something one is only interested in for a short period of time., not something of lasting value.

With this darned H44, what is of value keeps slipping away. I do hear your point, Trojan. In casting the Ting, though, doesn't that have the potential to make it more lasting? Maybe without the 44, there wouldn't be any Ting.

Injecting this about the fruits of the spirit ("Against such things there is no law"), which are the same all around the world. We're not too likely to get into trouble, for example, practicing self-control or loving kindness.

In other words, I think the point of 44.5 is to live one's life according to enduring principles, not to eat melons. In 44.5, fate is kind to someone.

Still don't have a clue how this relates to tiger's original question about weight loss, though.

 

[Trojina]

With this darned H44, what is of value keeps slipping away. I do hear your point, Trojan. In casting the Ting, though, doesn't that have the potential to make it more lasting? Maybe without the 44, there wouldn't be any Ting.

.

Well 44 is the most hotly debated hexagram followed by..? .. Anyway you could well be right that the melon is something very precious, I'm just not at all sure about it..maybe it is precious but pretty temporal..which isn't a bad thing..and sure enough it does change to the Ting.

Re the interpretation I think there sometimes comes a time when the will engages as if by magic to totally support what seemed like a great struggle. For example people can nag you to give up smoking all they like...but maybe one day you really understand you really don't want it in your life anymore..and with your belief and will behind you the 'giving up' falls into your lap....when the will is truly aligned with the goal its very powerful

 

[rosada]

I too think 44.5 is recommending a coach or maybe just aligning with someone who's lifestyle you admire and it keeps you preoccupied so you're not even thinking about food and then, Lo! the weight slips off.

Read what Wilhelm says as if the I Ching is telling you to get a role model you so admire you'll want to do everything he does.:
"This is a situation in which a strong, superior, well poised man (the coach) tolerates and protects the inferiors (you) in his charge. He has the firm lines of order and beauty within himself but he does not lay stress upon them. He does not bother his subordinates with outward show or tiresome admonitions but leaves them quite free, putting his trust in the transforming poser of a strong and upright personality. And behold! Fate is favorable. His inferiors respond to his influence and fall to his disposition like ripe fruit."
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

I too think 44.5 is recommending a coach or maybe just aligning with someone who's lifestyle you admire and it keeps you preoccupied so you're not even thinking about food and then, Lo! the weight slips off.

Read what Wilhelm says as if the I Ching is telling you to get a LIFE COACH you so admire you'll want to do everything he does:

44.5"This is a situation in which a strong, superior, well poised COACH tolerates and protects the CLIENTS in his charge. He has the firm lines of order and beauty within himself but he does not lay stress upon THE CLIENTS. He does not bother THEM with outward show or tiresome admonitions but leaves THEM quite free, putting his trust in the transforming poser of a strong and upright personality. And behold! Fate is favorable. His CLIENTS respond to his influence and fall to his disposition like ripe fruit."
-Wilhelm

 

[ginnie]

I am coming around to the idea of H44 as saying not to try to mess with the body's desire for food, that it is too strong. That seems right in my case, anyway.

My guess is that this melon will take the form of supplements that reduce the need for food. Tiger

Is there a supplement that reduces the need for sitting in front of a computer?
Maybe the computer is the temptation, not the food. After all, Tiger said he fasts regularly.

The Internet is more enthralling than food. One sits, only to discover one day that one has lost one's health.