Is it ethical to ask the Yi about other people?

[serchjing]

Greetings Everyone,

Thank you to all of you who have been able to support my questions lately. I've been going through a lot of changes as of late in my life- getting sober, finding work, etc. I've asked a lot of questions on this forum and have received much needed support and love

Today I received news that my mothers heart surgery that took place in October 2005 is not working out as expected. I asked the Yi questions concerning my mum. Hence the title Is it ethical to ask the Yi about other people?

So, for my family it's back to square one. My mother is going to speak to the surgeon around July 4th that did the operation and see what to do. Here heart doctor mentioned a second opinion perhaps, the Mayo Clinic or Cleveland Clinic if needed. Basically there's a lot ahead of us.

I asked the following questions, and don't know if there are any "off-limit" questions one should never asked the Yi?

Please show me if mom is going to die as a result of her heart complications.

Hex# 60 no changing lines.

What came to my mind is that maybe my mother isn't going to be able to do all she did before? I don't know.

What will be the end result of mom dealing with her Mitrial Valve heart problems?

Hex# 21 6-2 changing into Hex# 38

Any thoughts here?

Thank you all. Again I don't know if I should be aksing these kinds of questions, but I want to be the best son I possibly can be regardless of what happens.

m

 

[jesed]

Hi mirrow

First, I know this could be difficult situation.
Second, i need to know if you cast the hexagram on June 21. If it is so, 60 is pretty bad answer . Sorry to tell that.

Now, I must to say something: since you hadn't give any time reference for the first question... we cann't know if the answer would happen next week or 25 years from now.

Best wishes

 

[serchjing]

yes, I asked the Yi today (Wednesday June 21, 2006). May I ask what the time frame means? Why does today matter I guess? Can you explain that to me? That brings up something I never considered before...timing. I am grateful:bows:


mirror saw

 

[cassius_clay]

Yes it is ethical to ask it questions about certain people in your circle and maybe under your care, or whose decisions may affect you, or impact your life (moms, pops, children, friends, wife/husband, emlpoyers, govt officals, etc). Provided you are asking for guidance for you or that person. Answers will probably be limited to the level you are involved with someone on a need to know basis.

That being said. It's ethical to ask the I Ching about your mother if you are trying to help her. Peace.

 

[dobro p]

Mirrorsaw, I don't know if 'ethical' is the right word to use here. I think 'useful' would be a more useful word. In my view, it's less useful to ask questions about other people; let the other people and God take care of other people. In other words, other people need my love, they don't need my knowing what maybe even the doctors don't know.

A more useful question would be: what do I need to know about how to deal with other people.

Just my view.

 

[jesed]

Hi Mirrow

1.-
I use mathematical way to interpret an answer when a) the question is more a prediction than a counsel or description, and b) when it is a yes/no question.

In your case, this is a prediction question that would be answered with a yes/no. So, I used mathematical aproach.

In this aproach, one measure the energy of each line, and the influence of the season (spring, summer, autumn or winter) and the day to that line. So, the exactly day when the question was casted is needed.

You did the question on june 21, this is a Month Horse (fire) and a Day Snake (also a fire element)

The line that represents you is Snake (fire), under the aspect of Money. This shows that you are under a good season, and you wish/could help your mother economically.

The line that represents your mother is Monkey (metal). Fire destroys metal. That means that this is a quite bad season for your mother. But, Monkey combine with Snake. That means 2 things: a) combine with the day, so your mom healt is reinforced in the short term; and b) combine with you, so, you wish to help her, with a close relationship.

The line that represents your mom is a Void element; that is a bad sign.

Hexagram 60 is a "total combination" kind of hexagram. Normally, this means harmony and good fortune; but when the question is a yes/no question, it means Yes.

2.-
Now, with traditional method, 60 about illness means Danger. The life time of each person in this life is not endless, but limited. In 60 one is reaching that limit.

Because is an uchanging hex, this doesn't depend on your choices or actions, neither in someoneelse's actions. You must accept this.

The ruling line advices that one can face this danger with serenity and happiness...the image is someone that cross the great river with joy... in many cultures, death is seen as a transitional stage symbolized by crossing the river.

Is not always easy to made this transition with joy and serenity, but that is the recomendation in this situation.

It is never easy give this kind of interpretation, because I know this could produce sorry and grieve. But I'm conviced that in some times, this is a golden advice: don't fight aginst this, but seize the time to achieve this transition with serenity, dignity and happiness. In traditional teaching, this is the most important achievement to get a better start in the next life.

Best wishes

 

[Trojina]

Jesed I feel a bit worried you seem to be going as far as to actually predict death here ?

Have I misunderstood ?

 

[jesed]

Hi trojan

You understand well. With a little consideration:

since you hadn't give any time reference for the first question... we cann't know if the answer would happen next week or 25 years from now

That means, that heart complication would be a cause of death, but we cann't know if that would happen soon or not.

Is not the first time that an interpretation leads to that conclusion, see:
http://changesonpolitic.blogspot.com/2005/03/diagnosis-of-popes-health.html

Best wishes

 

[luz]

I find it interesting that mirror saw was concerned about whether it was ethical to ask this question. And he received hex 60. On Lise's site, she says this about 60:

The great image says:
Water at the top of the marsh: limits
The noble one delimits number and measure and deliberates upon ethical conduct

Could it be that the Yi was just reflecting his doubts?

 

[jesed]

Hi lightangel


60 wasn't the answer to the question of ethical stuff, but to the question:

Please show me if mom is going to die as a result of her heart complications.

Hex# 60 no changing lines.

So, i think we should take the answer as answering that question.
Otherwise, we should interpret that Yi Jing is telling that the question is/was unethical , and I cann't accept that interpretation, due to the wide use of Yi Jing for this kind of question since the ancient times to nowadays.


By the way, I interpret that the deeper concern wasn't even the ethical stuff, but this

I want to be the best son I possibly can be regardless of what happens

I'm really touch by this, even more knowing the actual Mirrow's effort to overcome alcoholism with the "12 steps".

How can anybody say or simply suggest that this intention (asking for mom because one wish to be the best son in this dramatic situation) is unethical?

Some could say that this intention is misleaded (see Hellinger's aproach to misleaded love and it's consecuences, like alcoholism and self-destruction behavior); but never that is unethical

Best wishes

 

[luz]

Jesed,

First of all, I did not suggest that it was unethical to ask that question or that the Yi was saying that it was.

I was only suggesting that the answer might be reflecting something in his mind. I am not the first one to think that the Yi sometimes does such a thing. And it was just a suggestion.

Maybe you disagree with that but do not misinterpret what I said. I am in fact of the opinion that we can ask any question we want.

And maybe I was just trying to see if there is another possible interpretation than your own dire one. Allowed?

 

[jesed]

Hi lightangel

I'll try to express myself better.

If we follow your suggestion (Yi is reflecting the doubts of Mirrow about the ethic of doing that question), there are only 2 posibilies:
a) That doubts have a basis (so, asking that question is unethical)
b) That doubts are unjustified (so, asking that question is ethical).

When Yi reflects that an inner state of mind or idea has no basis, it responds with others hexagrams: 30 (wrong ideas that need to be inlighted), 1 (stubborness), 47 (wrong ideas rooted in pesimism)

If the Yi is reflecting the doubt about the ethic, 60 is saying that indeed the Subject need to re-examinate his own ethical references.

So, if we assume that the Yi is reflecting the inner doubts about the ethic, that would mean those doubts was correct because it is unethical to ask for others.

I'm aware that maybe you didn't intend to say that the question was unethical; even so, the practical consequence of follow your suggestion lead to that conclusion (even if you wasn't aware ot this)

Ergo, my conclusion was the Yi is not reflecting that doubts.

Of course, I'm not forbidding others interpretations than mine. Just giving my arguments about that interpretation. Allowed?

Yet, I wonder if you need to see something else because cultural refuse to accept that lifetime is limited, therefore death is a natural stage that need to be accepted. Of course, probably I'm wrong.

Best wishes

 

[martin]

Hmm, let's see, if we assume that the Yi indeed reflects the ethical doubts of Mirror Saw the fact that it answers with 60 shows that those doubts must have a basis (b).
Because if they had no basis the Yi would have responded with another hexagram. Right?
Ergo, the ethical doubts of Mirror Saw do have a basis!

But then you say "Ergo, my conclusion was the Yi is not reflecting that doubts."
Ergo??
Jesed, either there is a hole in your logic or I need more aspirine.
Or perhaps a tequila?

 

[mudpie]

why couldnt 60 with no changing lines simply mean : "articulate more clearly" meaning, the question is too openended. everybody dies of something some day, and if there is a weak heart, chances are that SOMEDAY, that may be a factor in death, but the question as it stood was extremely openended, not articulated precisely.

This whole mathematical way of reading the YI seems to change every way I have ever interpreted a reading. and it seems to take away from the beauty of the meanings of the words. Does it have ANYTHING at all to do with the words, Jesed? Why not just throw the texts away then, and read by numbers?
MIrror saw, do not be frightened. I see 60 as nothng like a pending death.
I asked my if my dad was going to die when he was sick, and Yi said 63 . He was already crossing the river. 60 is sort of like a snug-stay-put reading. JMO

Worrying too much is not good for your sobriety. do not project into the future with thoughts that frighten you. You can deal with everything as it happens,step by step, and you will have the strength

 

[luz]

Jesed,

You said:
"Yet, I wonder if you need to see something else because cultural refuse to accept that lifetime is limited, therefore death is a natural stage that need to be accepted. Of course, probably I'm wrong."

I think you might be right. Although I think that death is a natural stage that needs to be accepted.. that is only on a good day, when the sun is bright, and there is no inmediate threat to my loved ones.

Maybe I have a thing about death predictions. Maybe because I think they bring unnecessary anxiety whether they are right or wrong. And I have had experience with them. When I was a teenager, this fortune teller told my mom I was gonna die of childbirth at the age of 30. Well, guess what, I found myself pregnant for the second time at that age, with a 9 month old daughter and at what might have been the most vulnerable time in my life because of motherhood. I did not die and I did not believe in that prediction but it must have been at the back of my mind. It was then that I started having panic attacks for the first time in my life. My first pregnancy was bliss, the second one was hell. And it feels so bad to be in hell when a life is growing inside you and you are afraid that he can feel it.

My point is, even if I had died as predicted, did I need this anxiety? Did it do any good, this failed prediction, even thought the fortune teller must have earnestly believed it? I am sorry. I think we can ask the Yi any question we want, there is no limit. But I do think that there is a limit in what we say to others. Be it right or wrong.. even if we believe that death is just a passage, and a desirable one. Even if we think that death is bliss. We have no way of knowing how others view it, how others will react to sucha prediction. I think it's a big responsibility, one that we can't even envision in its totatility, even if we know the people we are talking to really well.

 

[hilary]

This all cuts too close to home for me to say anything very helpful about the readings, Mirror Saw - sorry. I think what Jesed said about 60, and all lives having natural endings, but that without a timescale in your question that ending could be years away, is all good.

Here's what I latched onto:

Because is an unchanging hex, this doesn't depend on your choices or actions, neither in someone else's actions. You must accept this.

I've been asking about my Mum's prognosis, too. I know very well that this isn't a useful question - I've probably pointed that kind of thing out to many, many people - but there are times when the need to know takes over all such good sense. I've asked twice, and received unchanging hexagrams twice. (I won't post them, as I don't want to hijack Mirror's thread.) I'm familiar with changing hexagrams meaning 'there's no more to be said until you choose your stance.' This - your choice has nothing to do with it - also strikes me as a good way of seeing them. A relief, too.

 

[frank_r]

Hallo Mirror saw,

Hence the title Is it ethical to ask the Yi about other people?

I think it is, but you have to have a open heart, because when you do there should not be any kind of reservation for the answer you get from the Yi. Otherwise this will hurt yourself, but when you are sincere there is no problem at all.

Please show me if mom is going to die as a result of her heart complications.

The system of the 8 houses is used with health problems. the last two hexagram's are the most dangereus when asking a question about health.

And 60 is the second in the House of water. Thus regarding to this system there is no need to be worry. That through the limitation she can find new power in deeper parts of herself.

And mirror saw I wish you a lot of strenght, but a son who is giving so much love to his mother can always ask question regarding his mother.

Best wishes Frank R

 

[martin]

I think the question in this and other cases is also if the answers of the oracle are really intended to be predictive or not.
It is true that Mirror Saw asked about the future when he received hexagram 60 and I wouldn't deny that the I Ching indeed does predict events sometimes. But IMO that doesn't necessarily mean that it intended to do that here.

I can understand this answer also in a different way, as something like "I give you the idea of hexagram 60, try to think about the situation in these terms, look at it from this perspective and see what you get".
If you interpret the answer in this way the intention behind it is not to predict but to help the querent to see the situation clearly.
And I think this is much more in line with what the I Ching or what speaks through it basically is. It is first of all a wise guide that assists us in our efforts to understand things better - that is what inner guides do - and only secondary (and only sometimes and maybe only when it is necessary for a better understanding) a "fortune teller".

 

[toganm]

You did the question on june 21, this is a Month Horse (fire) and a Day Snake (also a fire element)

The line that represents you is Snake (fire), under the aspect of Money. This shows that you are under a good season, and you wish/could help your mother economically.

The line that represents your mother is Monkey (metal). Fire destroys metal. That means that this is a quite bad season for your mother.

Now based on the question I would I have taken the subject as the mother and the event/object as illness

Please show me if mom is going to die as a result of her heart complications.

hence I would interpret that fire, in my interpretation the mother will melt the metal, the illness. However since the name of the Hexgram is "Limitation" I would overall interpretate the whole hexagram as she would escape from death resulting from this illness on a little margin ending with a possibility of one sided paralysis mostly affecting the joints.

Overall by best wishes to Mirror Saw and the mother

Togan

 

[bruce_g]

Predicting someone’s death only adds energy to death; perhaps not causing the death, but not adding to healing or recovery either. As with Angel’s example, it could cause anxiety, fear and pessimism; none of which promotes healing or wellness. Imo, this sort of god-like divination enters the realm of black magic, if only through the power of suggestion.

I view Mirror’s 60 as Yi saying: Easy there; limit your concerns and expenditures in this matter to what is useful and helpful to both you and your mother.

Also, the idea that an unchanging hexagram always means that nothing the receiver does can effect the outcome, is pure hogwash.

Mirror, I have no idea whether your mother will make it through this disease, but I do know, first-hand, that faith and love can work miracles. If your mom doesn’t make it, then you can console yourself with the knowledge that, death is as valuable as life. But while you and she are living, choose life. I think that’s what Yi teaches.

 

[hilary]

The idea that an unchanging hexagram always means that nothing the receiver does can effect the outcome, is pure hogwash.

Yes - I couldn't agree more.
The idea that it might sometimes mean this, though, seems to me to be a keeper - at least, I'm finding it helpful.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Hilary,

Yes, I agree that an unchanging hexagram “can” represent unchangeable fate, but so can a change line. You probably will recall the 51.5 I received, preceding a minor traffic incident on the way to a rehearsal? Or was it line 6? At any rate, it’s my understanding that some aspects of fate are fixed, while others can be influenced through our mind condition and/or actions.

 

[jesed]

Now based on the question I would I have taken the subject as the mother and the event/object as illness

Hi Tonganm

Yes, I can see what you mean. Even more, that was my first understanding: mom as "subject line".

But, then, I realise one thing: when asking for others people, if that people is close to the consultant and belongs to one of the six aspects (father, brothers, wife, husband, child, controler), that aspect represent better that people, and not the "subject line".

So, I interpreted that the aspect fathers represent Mirrow's mom.

Of course, it would be easier for me to ignore that rule (I was aware about this emotional reaction against it, as it happened now); but in my practice, that rule apllies all the time.

Any case. i'm open to hear your arguments if you still think that subject line represents better. I'm open to ideas based on arguments.

Best wishes

 

[toganm]

Hi Jesed

But, then, I realise one thing: when asking for others people, if that people is close to the consultant and belongs to one of the six aspects (father, brothers, wife, husband, child, controler), that aspect represent better that people, and not the "subject line".

The key in my understanding is being flexible. In this case I followed the Five elements approach Dui is metal Kan is water. In the sheng cycle metal creates the water. So Dui is the mother of Kan so it represents the subject in my interpretation.

The subject line is the first yao and the event/object/response is the fourth yao ( I think we are the same on this aspect). The first yao is also the first line of Dui.

It is a matter of defining who is the subject and response/event/object with being flexible yet still logical.

If there was a changing line in one of the trigrams than that would be the event/object trigram.

Best wishes

Togan

 

[jesed]

Hi Togan

Thanks for give arguments.

Yes, we both are seeing subject line in 1 and object line in 4.

Following your aproach (based on trigrams' relationship rather than lines), I can see how you got your conclusion. Of course, if "mother" (Dui) produces the "illness" (kan); then the illness reduces mother, but only a reduction not a mayor consequence.

Another way is adscribing subject line as mother and object line as illness. There, the conclusion would be that mother would overcome the illness (because subject line is in good season and object line is in bad season).

And another, the one that I followed, is based on the 6 relationships (or aspects; see harmen's article about the 8 Houses... Alex Chiu called them 6 stars, see superiching.com). In that case, the aspect of fathers would represent the mother, and the aspect of Controler (worries, illness) the illness. (to see an example of the aplication of six aspects to represent the subject when asking for other people, see http://www.raymond-lo.com/ver2/aboutmasterlo/articles.asp?id=7)

I guess, we cann't go further than this: aknowledge each one aproaches, and its validity, and wait the real facts to confirm or disconfirm

Best wishes

 

[toganm]

Hi Jesed,

Thanks for the Raymond-lo link.

Best wishes
Togan