Is it over or is there any chance for reunion? 48.1.2.4 49, 33.1.4.6 63 and some more questions about

[Flowing like water]

Hi everybody,

I know I should'n ask too many questions. Hope you can help me to understand if my relationship is over or there's still any chance for reunion.

Some background.
I'm 45 and I have been looking for a healthy relationship all my life, but I was not really successful... Because of my past, especially my losses during my childhood. I did a lot of work and a therapist is following me now but at the moment I cannot see her, at least for a while.
Most of my partners used to have a not-committal spirit. Here another one, despite all my efforts to avoid them or trying to be sincere and clear in my intentions and needs since the beginning.

I met this man last October, he was single and we have many common interests. Two years older than me.
We started to date . Trying to figure out what he was looking for, I told him since the beginning I was not looking for a fling.
He told me about his difficulties with relationships in terms of engagement or commitment. He didn't feel loved by his mother and I started to understand he is a narcissist with many unsolved problems. I could see how he fears emotions. But I could also see he wanted to try to see where we could eventually go...
My therapist told me to be very clear, set boundaries with him and considering what I needed and what he could give me. Not investing too much in such type of guy, but still seeing, keeping dating him if I felt it could be right.
That's what I did.

I could feel his affection towards me growing, while keeping a lot of control over his emotions.
He used to care about me in different ways, at the same time he wasn't able to cuddle me (but he was asking me to cuddle him all time). He used to hugging me all night long as I love but avoiding caresses or cuddles, he wanted instead.

One night we had a fight: I cooked for him, I cuddled him, he was so happy for that but didn't want to cuddle me, he just wanted me to cuddle him while watching TV (I am bored by TV, I don't have it) and hugging me but being totally immobile. A weird situation I never experience before with no man.
I told him I didn't want a relationship like this, where he is asking and having a lot from me but he doesn't give me as much, not more than hugging me while sleeping and some nice gestures, for sure, but not enough to me. I left very angry. He didn't reply my words, I saw the shock in his face, because of my aggressiveness (I'm not aggressive but his stillness was too much that night, more than what I could or wanted to bear).

After some days silencing, I decided to call him and ask for a meeting. I needed answers about my questions: who I was for him, what he wanted from me and if he realized how weird and unbalanced was his behavior.
On the phone I just ask to meet. He agreed with that and looked to be happy to see me. We were supposed to meet few days later since he was traveling to his second house outside the city for some few days. Then the corona virus spread and in Italy we had the lockdown.

He phoned me then, but since the situation was surreal as well as our perceptions of reality, we avoided to talk about us, I wanted to do it in person and in those first days of lockdown I didn't feel to discuss.
We heart from each other a couple of times. But then, once "adapted" to this weird lockdown, I felt it didn't make sense to avoid a confrontation or to chat friendly as if nothing happened that night between us. I felt suspended and I felt I didn't want to keep suspended our "relationship" too, by acting as nothing happened between us.

That's why I wrote him. I told him clearly what I needed (a balanced relationship) and what I didn't want. I was not asking for commitment because I also need time to know each other better, but my feelings are growing and I need to know his intentions. I asked him what I was for him and where were we going.

We had a call this morning to discuss my email, since we cannot meet (for how long who knows).
He was friendly, but very clear in his statement: he doesn't feel ready for a relationships, my requests are right but he doesn't feel or can have it. My need to have a balanced (bilateral we can say) relationship is right and he can do it as friends, not as lovers.
He would like us to be friends but his feelings are not so deep for a relationship (not for a balanced one in giving and taking).

Let me say, I don't believe that the problems were his feelings towards me, but my request itself.
He is scared of a relationship. If I don't talk about what we are or where we are going, the relationship could work for him. But because I did requests, he feels trapped.

I felt he had affection for me, slowly growing. In fact he said our relationship was like a little plant that might have become a tree. For what I could understand, the reason why it didn't and decided to quit is because of my requests, they were asked too soon.
I didn't ask for commitment but the act of making requests and express my needs made him feel the same as commitment.

He said he didn't want and/or could have a relationship with me (or even with anyone else), despite he knew even before my email, I was looking for that.

I wish I could simply move on and make this relationship over in my mind. I understand he cannot give me what I need from a man. Yet, a part of me still hopes he will re-consider to get deeper into his emotions and our relationship.
I know my hopes are hopeless... if he is so problematic.
He never had a real relationship. Maybe mine weren't successful as I wanted, but still they were deep. He had some but he wasn't in love really. I think he is un-affective... :-((

I know I deserve more than an unaffective and narcissist man. I wanted more from him. But it's hard to me to accept he cannot give me more than this. He has problems and he is a 47 years old man, thus difficult to change if he never tried to.
Despite what I wrote, I find very hard to let him go, that's why I asked I ching.

Here my questions and answers: please help me to interpret them. If there's no hope, I will do my best to move on.

- Potential for reunion with X for a romantic relationship 33.1.4.6 to 63

33 reflects the situation, his retreat. Not sure how to interpret line 1. Line 4 and 6 seems to say it's good fortune to retreat i.e. Should I interpret that retreat is the only solution and the relationship is over? Also 63 seems to say the situation is complete.

- Will F come back to me? 7 uc

Uc not easy to interpret to me. He won't change his mind, he is immovable in his decision, that's why he won't come back to me...

- Is it over forever? 48.1.2.4 to 49

What I understand here, it's that a radical change is necessary or is it saying it already happened = his decision to quit the relationship?
I love the well, the place for resources. I wonder if there are resources that can be acted upon to have a relationship founded on the completion of mutual needs. Line 1 says Even while it has been neglected, Nourishment While Waiting suggests that through patience and diligent work, the source can renewed. Is it me I can be renewed or our relationship? Are line 2 and 4 saying that the situation is corrupted but there is still an opportunity to fix it?

That's why I then asked:

- What should I do to have him back to me? 49.5 to 55

Again 49, Radical Change. Leading to abundance.
Line 5
Great person transforms as a tiger.
Even before the augury, there is truth and confidence.

Should I suppose I have to change in the way to let him go and consider the relationship over because there is nothing I can do except to accept it? And I let him go, I will have abundance...?
Or might there be some change I have to face to have him back to me? If so, I don't understand what I should change...

As last, as an advice, I asked I ching

- What's doing with X now? 3.4 to 17
While asking, I was thinking to have an advice about what's doing. If the potential for an healthy reunion doesn't exist (or even if it existed), I wonder if I should accept to be friends with him as he asked me or not. I'm not sure I can and I want to be his friend. I wanted more than this and not sure it would help me to stay in contact with him right now...

Should I follow his lead (his request to be friend) or what should I follow?

I'm very confused.
Despite his words were clear, I believe that the idea of a relationship makes him so scared that he preferred to quit in front of my request to clarify his intentions (= feeling trapped in a relationship). If I wouldn't have asked for that clarification, he wouldn't have quit. I'm pretty sure about. I'm happy I asked because I don't want less than what I asked him. I just though he could have made an effort towards my needs instead of escaping.

Thanks for your help.
Staying at home all this time doesn't help me to let him go. And how long more?
I cannot even say: go out and think about something else or meet some friends :-(((

 

[Flowing like water]

Hi there!

I understand I wrote a long text and I might have done too many questions...
Sorry for that.

I wonder if anybody could help with my castings or some of them, anyway.

Should I reformulate my questions and reduce them to only one or two with a new post? If so, what would you suggest?
I really would like to understand if it makes sense still having an hope for return or if it should be better I just move on.

Thank you xxx

 

[legume]

not sure i'm the best person to answer, as i recognise myself in the situation described so my interpretation might be a little biased? yet as you're publicly looking for other perspectives, let's try...

- Potential for reunion with X for a romantic relationship 33.1.4.6 to 63

it seems to me the lines might illustrate both of yours attitudes, 1 talking about withdrawing the tail from danger, as after what you called a fight each of you took a step back to think what's best for everyone involved. 4 could speak about your current dynamics as well as about what comes with voluntary withdrawal, and that's possibly to allow for friendly attitude while sticking to one's beliefs. this leading to 6, where both parties withdraw creating some freedom or space in between, maybe. this situation can then provide clarity to recognise certain completion. i don't know whether 63 is about this relationship being already "done" or the situation being "ready" or about learning that each person is already complete without the other.

i often experience 33 as just a step, a planned or necessary retreat before making the next move. here it has 63 either as a background or as a result and i cannot say with any certainty what this actually means, sorry.

- Will F come back to me? 7 uc

to me 7 usually brings to mind teaming up, working together as a team. the judgment mentions good fortune and no blame. and perseverance plus a strong man. some translations would say that persistence of elder people brings good fortune. maybe it's time to let him take a lead?

- Is it over forever? 48.1.2.4 to 49

i don't think so. maybe you're a useful source to him (for his personal development for example) or he's one to you. the lines of 48 made me think of your journey through therapy, with line 4 pointing at the stage of reworking or maybe rearranging some "bricks" of the psyche, rebuilding oneself in a way so that one can provide others with purity of feeling / clarity of mind. that could bring a true change or revolution in how one relate to others.

by coincidence, i just found out that pressing a tab key posts a message...

 

[legume]

i shall then continue in a new post...

- What should I do to have him back to me? 49.5 to 55

this ties nicely to the previous reading, as indeed, Yi's suggesting a sudden transformation.

- What's doing with X now? 3.4 to 17

not sure i understand this question right, but i'd think it's no mistake to strive for union.

and if i may just comment on something outside of the readings, you mentioned aggression, however i believe it's crucial to be able to communicate one's boundaries. it may come across as aggressive to some, who aren't maybe used to people stating what they want, but to me that's being assertive, not aggressive.

another thing i wondered about, and you don't need to answer, how would you want to be with that person if the word "relationship" didn't exist? maybe that could help having an open conversation while avoiding triggering whatever scares the man

 

[Flowing like water]

not sure i'm the best person to answer, as i recognise myself in the situation described so my interpretation might be a little biased? yet as you're publicly looking for other perspectives, let's try...



it seems to me the lines might illustrate both of yours attitudes, 1 talking about withdrawing the tail from danger, as after what you called a fight each of you took a step back to think what's best for everyone involved. 4 could speak about your current dynamics as well as about what comes with voluntary withdrawal, and that's possibly to allow for friendly attitude while sticking to one's beliefs. this leading to 6, where both parties withdraw creating some freedom or space in between, maybe. this situation can then provide clarity to recognise certain completion. i don't know whether 63 is about this relationship being already "done" or the situation being "ready" or about learning that each person is already complete without the other.

i often experience 33 as just a step, a planned or necessary retreat before making the next move. here it has 63 either as a background or as a result and i cannot say with any certainty what this actually means, sorry.



to me 7 usually brings to mind teaming up, working together as a team. the judgment mentions good fortune and no blame. and perseverance plus a strong man. some translations would say that persistence of elder people brings good fortune. maybe it's time to let him take a lead?



i don't think so. maybe you're a useful source to him (for his personal development for example) or he's one to you. the lines of 48 made me think of your journey through therapy, with line 4 pointing at the stage of reworking or maybe rearranging some "bricks" of the psyche, rebuilding oneself in a way so that one can provide others with purity of feeling / clarity of mind. that could bring a true change or revolution in how one relate to others.

by coincidence, i just found out that pressing a tab key posts a message...

Thank you Legume for your precious interpretations. I'm really grateful for that.

Despite I wish I could know more about the potential for reunion, I think you are right when you say it's time to let him take a lead. He clearly stated he would like us to be friends. I just find it difficult, but I might consider that as well, despite I feel affection not as a friend.
Now we cannot meet in person because of the lockdown that's going to last longer for sure. This helps to take a real distance. If I would meet him, I'm sure I would like to hug him, to be close to him and I would suffer to behavior as a friend. By phone (if he is gonna call me again) it's easier for sure not demonstrate my feelings and avoiding contact.

I also believe I'm a useful source to him, as you said. He likes me, he told me on phone. I always felt he was looking for help from me. As for me, meeting this man during my therapy process is helping me to understand how to deal with men, rebuilding myself and rearrange some bricks of my psyche for sure. That's an hard work anyway.

This man is really challenging me. So weird how he behaves...
However, a true change or revolution in how one relate to others is really necessary.
The situation couldn't continue as it was before the fight.
I just still hope we could be more than friends but I cannot force anything, it wouldn't work even if I could.

 

[Flowing like water]

i shall then continue in a new post...



this ties nicely to the previous reading, as indeed, Yi's suggesting a sudden transformation.



not sure i understand this question right, but i'd think it's no mistake to strive for union.

and if i may just comment on something outside of the readings, you mentioned aggression, however i believe it's crucial to be able to communicate one's boundaries. it may come across as aggressive to some, who aren't maybe used to people stating what they want, but to me that's being assertive, not aggressive.

another thing i wondered about, and you don't need to answer, how would you want to be with that person if the word "relationship" didn't exist? maybe that could help having an open conversation while avoiding triggering whatever scares the man

For sure he doesn't like me stating what I want. It causes him problems and difficulties. He really doesn't know how to deal with a woman (and in general with confrontations).

I might not properly understand your last question.
I would like to avoid the word "relationship" with him, I was not asking for definitions.
If this word wouldn't exist (maybe I didn't get your question), I would just be happy to be close with him, into his harms, no talking. But the problem arose when he started to avoid physical contact, not at all but in a way I didn't feel reciprocated. This hurt me, that's why I stated clearly my needs, that's why he withdrew...

I think you didn't mean what I thought. Because my answer cannot help to favor your assumption that it might help having an open conversation while avoiding triggering his fears.

Thank you for your feedback!!

I really liked your words. I still hope to have some more interpretations from other. Different points of view can help for sure to have clarity.

 

[Greenleaf]

Hello,
I’m pretty sure my advice will be unwelcome, but I feel I should say it. I was in your situation many times in the past and I wish there was someone to give me a clear answer. First of all, from the abundance of changing lines and the large number of readings you’ve done I can tell you were using a coin method. I would avoid it. I only use yarrow stalks for important questions and even then you have to really think and formulate the question well to get an answer that will make sense. I Ching doesn’t like multiple readings about the same problem, this will inevitably lead to the kind of replies you will not make sense of.
I can tell you without the I Ching - you need to forget this man. This has nothing to do with you. He is 47 years old, he will remain single forever. This was my experience in the past with bad relationships - I seemed to get involved with men who were not ready for commitment, and I suffered because I thought I was unlovable. But years later, now with help of Facebook and such, I’m discovering that all those men ended up staying single or even if they hooked up with someone and made a child, they abandoned the woman and the child. You are saving yourself from a lot of heartache (and eventually the relationship will not work), if you leave and forget this man now. And another advice — when you meet a man who wants to be with you, there will be none of this uncertainty. He will want to marry you and won’t be telling you any of this bullshit about readiness or not readiness. These kind of men once they’re with someone tend to stay with that person for the rest of their lives. The problem for women is that these men are not the majority, and the only smart strategy is to quickly identify the men who don’t want a close relationship and minimize your losses by quickly moving on. If you don’t do it you risk wasting years of your life on wrong men and lose opportunities to meet the right men.

 

[Flowing like water]

Hello,
I’m pretty sure my advice will be unwelcome, but I feel I should say it. I was in your situation many times in the past and I wish there was someone to give me a clear answer. First of all, from the abundance of changing lines and the large number of readings you’ve done I can tell you were using a coin method. I would avoid it. I only use yarrow stalks for important questions and even then you have to really think and formulate the question well to get an answer that will make sense. I Ching doesn’t like multiple readings about the same problem, this will inevitably lead to the kind of replies you will not make sense of.
I can tell you without the I Ching - you need to forget this man. This has nothing to do with you. He is 47 years old, he will remain single forever. This was my experience in the past with bad relationships - I seemed to get involved with men who were not ready for commitment, and I suffered because I thought I was unlovable. But years later, now with help of Facebook and such, I’m discovering that all those men ended up staying single or even if they hooked up with someone and made a child, they abandoned the woman and the child. You are saving yourself from a lot of heartache (and eventually the relationship will not work), if you leave and forget this man now. And another advice — when you meet a man who wants to be with you, there will be none of this uncertainty. He will want to marry you and won’t be telling you any of this bullshit about readiness or not readiness. These kind of men once they’re with someone tend to stay with that person for the rest of their lives. The problem for women is that these men are not the majority, and the only smart strategy is to quickly identify the men who don’t want a close relationship and minimize your losses by quickly moving on. If you don’t do it you risk wasting years of your life on wrong men and lose opportunities to meet the right men.

Dear Greenleaf,
I don't think it's about welcome or not your feedback.
I'm not expert with I-Ching as many here are, that's why I'm asking for help.
I appreciate your suggestion to use the yarrow stalks method, I didn't know about but after reading your post I watched videos about. I will try to buy these talks and see if they can help me more than a coin method, as well as I realize I should have asked less questions about.
Nevertheless, I would like to tell you what I think about your advice.
A therapist is following me because I have problems to deal with men. If so, it's because of deep reasons. What I appreciate of her is that she gives me advices, somehow, but she never tells me what I should or I shouldn't do. She lets my thoughts flowing and then she finds a way to make me aware of them and of my actions, opening my mind to new possibilities of thinking and acting.
I think it's easy to answer the way you did. Whoever could tell me I don't deserve a man like this, or I should just recognize immediately the not-committal men and quickly moving on. The fact I didn't yet or I have difficulties with that I think it's not because I like this situation, but because for some reason I attract this kind of men or I'm attracting them. It's challenging for me. I hope one day I could meet a man who wants to stay with me and I still trust it will happen.
Since you were so lucky, you should find another way to explain how it happened, maybe.
I cannot blame myself for not having identified him immediately or not being able to quickly move on right now. I understand when you say I'm just loosing my time with him or men like that. But I also think that if it happened again, it is an opportunity for my growth, how to deal with him and how to move on if necessary, but still it's a process. I'm not a machine. I'm human. If it were easy as you say, I would have already moved on, probably even before than now.
That's why I asked I-Ching first, the help of some of you then. Probably I asked the wrong way, but I'm not the only one in this forum having this kind of issues.
I appreciate a lot when people take their time and experience to help the others.
For sure you can state clearly what you think about, but let me say that the way you spoke made me feel I'm wrong because I cannot simply recognize this kind of men and move on. In that way your feedback doesn't help me.
I would just have appreciated more someone trying as first to give a possible interpretation to the answers I received, beside that expressing his/her personal point of view but maybe with touch. I appreciate sincerity but I think you should be careful the way you speak if you want being of help while trying to understand the person in difficulty on the other side.
Anyway, I got your message.