Is the friend zone a real thing?

[kincadefoster]

Hi everybody,

Thanks in advance for taking time to read and answer. :bows:

I have been in this on again off again thing for a while with a girl. One pattern that keeps repeating since the beginning is she will say she wants friendship, then I go with it, and when she realizes I don't just want her for sex like everyone else, and actually genuinely want to hang with her to hang with her, it becomes a sexual relationship again.

Yes she has issues and is highly emotional(which I like by the way, she is far more challenging and interesting and fun than anyone else I have dated, and keeps making me a stronger, more grounded better man). She is a scorpio and has borderline personality disorder(lets face it, these two seem to coincide a lot). So I know this is happening because of her fear of abandonment and fear and reluctance to commit(which a lot of scorpios seem to have). But, she has hit me with the "lets be ONLY friends or farewell"(again) after we've been apart a while. I made a mental shift a while back and decided that the friend zone didnt really exist and that it was just a fear we have that causes us to act needy and desperate and drive people away and that I just need to be my cool self and not worry about it. When I made this shift, I started meeting and hanging out and having sex with a good amount more women, but I'm kinda getting sick of it with this person. Mostly it's just now been the longest time since we did anything sexual and I'm feeling unloved atm.

It's possible she is just doing the scorpio thing and just giving me some BS to see what I will do(no offense if you are scorpio and don't do this)

So I asked what will happen if I just go with the friends thing? 9.3.6 > 60 And I plan to take it more S L O W L Y this time so she actually appreciates what she has made an effort for(I heard scorps dont value anyone they don't have to work for)

And I asked what will happen if I send the following message: "You obviously think close friends and having a good relationship are mutually exclusive. I am worth more than frienship and my feelings of rejection are just as important as yours"(then some form of goodbye/goodluck) ? 32.1 > 34

I've noticed 32, line 1 seeking duration/consistency too soon leads to misfortune. One thought I had was that it will probably take quite a bit of time to build trust and a foundation for a good relationship with this person(but probably worth it) Also it may be telling me to be consistent(Ive been reading james dekorne), I told her recently I don't really want to be friends.

 

[Owlietta]

I'm not an expert at the i-ching. That said, the apparent issue is that she is not sure about you, and you are not sure about her, either. You are wondering whether to text her a serious question about the essence of your relationship. The pretty obvious answer, i-ching notwithstanding, is that face-to-face communication (or at least talking on the telephone) is what is needed. If you don't have the courage to at least call her and say how you feel, well then, why even bother? Texting is totally wimpy. I also happen to be a scorpio, BTW.
It sounds like you two don't really communicate. If you don't have that, you don't have much of anything besides physical sex. No wonder why you both think this is merely a sexual relationship!

 

[moss elk]

Kincadefoster,

I have to ask: have you done your homework on BPD?
I've read that it is one of the most difficult disorders out there that therapists even often fail in helping
people with it. I would ask you to consider if someone with BPD could be in a good relationship with
ANYONE who is not a masochist. (Who would have to deal with narcicism, psychosis, rage, lies, and attacks)

I was in a relationship for three years with a very troubled person who i persuaded to get in to therapy and she was given an initial diagnosis of BPD. On reflection, I think it was more like D.I.D. with personality fragments and psychotic episodes. There were times when she was completely rational, intelligent, creative, loving, and funny. When she was this way (what most people considered normal/healthy) she had no memory of the events that occurred during her episodes. (Which increased and intensified over time)
After three years of explosive attacks, sudden nightmarish transformations, NE siezures, and the brilliant twisted machinations/inventions of her mind, i realized one day that there was really only one person in my home that i could help, and he was wearing my shoes. So i left. That was four years ago and every day away from the tempest that she was is a better day for me. Did i love her? Yes. Would i ever put myself alone in a room with someone like her? Never again.

I'm obviously biased so i will leave the interpretations to others.
good luck.

 

[kincadefoster]

Owlietta, I'm not talking about necessarily txting. This is just what I will say. Her lets ONLY be friends thing came via text. She seems to be more comfortable texting at first when we are apart. Then we move to calling and in person. She has said in the past that we have good communication and are like best friends and thats what a relationship should be. I agree

Moss Elk, I have done research on BPD. But most of the stuff you get in a google search is people who are just as frustrated. There are two guys out there with books about how to have a successful relationship with them. Bon Dobbs and Rick from reignitethefire.net. I have also been working with the book No More Mr Nice Guy and took a college course on assertiveness and communication. I have learned that you must have self-respect so they will respect you, you must set boundaries, and you must be super grounded and not let stuff they say and do bother you. The biggest cause of escalation of behavior is becoming hurt and defensive or bothered by it. BPD will test you x10 or x20 what a normal woman will and treat you way good when you keep passing. Since I have learned this and have been very grounded, she has started moderating her drinking, she is much nicer to me and always making an effort, talks about just learning to be in a loving relationship with herself(something IMHO she isn't capable of right now, on our last break she "fell in love" with another guy and got dumped harshly), and talks about going to counseling. She is even listening to my advice now, but I feel like her shrink. But I learned all this late in the game so to speak, and don't know if it's enough to eventually get her respect and attraction level toward me back. She keeps talking like she wants to find a perfect guy out there to be with when Im the only man in her life who truly likes her for who she is good and bad and is patient and willing to stick it out. She even keeps saying she feels like she can truly be herself and not pretend around me. This is bc I "ride the waves" so to speak when she is emotional and don't get bothered or defensive anymore.

So I have asked, what will it take to bring her attraction toward me back 24.5.6 > 42

And I also thought of a third option. It just feels like ultimatum time in the interest of self respect. And I would say something like "yeah we can be friends but you better be damn sure about this because I will probably never take you back as anything but a friend, I'm worth more than that. No more staying the night and cuddling" etc It may sound cold but you guys don't know the half of what I've dealt with, and why be a friend who has to deal with the relationship stuff in an emotional and intimate sense but doesn't get the relationship. I guess this would be my 9.3.6 > 60

The issue is that going with the friends thing yet another time is a covert contract that might cause me to stew inside and breaking it off because I don't want just friends is kind of a form of emotional blackmail.

The other day, a girl I've been hanging with literally wanted to stop and jump my bones on the way back from the pub, we only fooled around a bit, but it felt really nice and changed my perspective a little. I've been waiting for table scraps when I can have a meal. For the record, I don't need sex in a relationship, but IMO the other person should want to have sex with me or at least think of me as her sexual partner whether we do or not.

 

[ginnie]

Scorpios can be celibate more easily than other signs. This is paradoxical, but true. Perhaps she doesn't know how you feel because of this. 9.3.6 > 60 is obviously not good for this relationship. The man and the woman look away from each other followed by the top line moving: it is inauspicious to go on an expedition. The 24.6 warns against a confused return. And indeed, there does seem to be confusion about sex in the different kinds of possible relationships . . . Maybe you feel you have gone a long way towards understanding her and feeling good with her, but I'm wondering why it should all have to be such hard work, such an uphill battle. I think the 60 says this as well: There are a lot of limitations or obstacles here that have to be worked around before you will ever get anywhere. Are you sure this is what you want?

 

[kincadefoster]

Can anyone comment on my other question above? What if I tell her basically good by and good luck that I am worth more than friendship. I had gotten 32.1 >34 I've looked at a few posts here that say 32 means things will stay the same or it may not be good for getting back together and I looked here http://taobabe.wordpress.com/the-secret-to-staying-together/ and found a person's blog suggesting 32 is about cycles of renewal in love and here http://www.psychic-revelation.com/reference/i_l/i_ching/hexagram32.html it talks about adaptation to changes and that just bc the same strategy worked before doesnt mean it still will.

 

[blue_angel]

32.1>34 seems to say you strongly desire for the relationship to endure. But you have to work on it gradually and steady. As Ginnie said 24.6 is a confused return. So if its possible set up a clear foundation. One you can both agree on and trust in.

32.1 also seems to say however you're going about this isn't working. Find new ideas, have a new attitude about it all. Working with a bpd to me doesn't have to be quite so hard. Encourage without demeaning and ensure trust and love. Small, gradual, baby steps.

 

[blue_angel]

I like what LiSe says on 24.6, its like you know exactly what needs to happen, what would make it better or set it right. So much you can feel it in your bones and yet something else is overruling you going forth with whatever that is. Whether its a person, a belief, societies standards. And if you can't overcome that, whatever that is, its useless to continue, because you wont accomplish your goal which
seems to be, to have a committed relationship
with this woman. Right?

I'll second what Ginnie asked are you sure this is what you want? You want to go through with this? Cause your actions are saying otherwise.

Anyway best of luck

 

[rodaki]

well, the friends' zone is as real as any other, ie as steady as people's intentions go

For me, 32.1 looks like you'd be pushing for a permanent change you yourself will be banging your head for (34)

9.3,6 is very much a place with an expiration date, fraught with boundary-setting (60) . . You'll be ignoring the truth of the situation (line 3) and probably feel unfulfilled, but will do so in view of a greater change lurking somewhere far in the horizon (9)

24.5,6 to 42 says that returning to wholeness is good . . someone admits going about things the wrong way, someone pays attention to not stray too far . . Since you asked what can YOU do, I'm bound to think this speaks about you . . not sure though what 42 describes - this might be pointing towards re-evaluating what can bring you prosperity . .


be well!

 

[moss elk]

The biggest cause of escalation of behavior is becoming hurt and defensive or bothered by it.

This could also be stated as:
The biggest cause of escalation of behaviour is having a natural reaction to abnormal behaviour.

Or simply,
Being affected by her.
Do you really want to be a relationship of one way influence? It doesn't sound very fulfilling to me.

She is even listening to my advice now, but I feel like her shrink.

Here is a quote from the American Psychological Association website
http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/ethics.aspx
" As a profession, we have learned all too well the harms that occur when psychologists become sexually involved with their clients. The harms are so clear that our code, like the codes of all major mental health organizations, absolutely prohibits such involvements."

And they aren't only referencing the harm to the counselor, but also to harm of the patient.
From the friend zone you could be a counselor to her.

Please consider these things.

 

[kincadefoster]

We were talking the other day, and she denied that we ever even had a relationship, apparently we've been friends all along. This was kind of the last straw.

I've thought it through about all my options and talked about it at length with a friend. What she said to me echoed a thought I've been having. And there seems to really be no other option.

Whatever the IC says or means, she has no incentive or reason to change as long as she can have what she has with me AND date other people, so I told her I am worth more than friendship and definitely worth more than her denial anything ever existed between us.

But ended leaving it open, telling her maybe I will talk to her again in time and that I'm sorting things out.

 

[kincadefoster]

Well
She has told me she is moving a few towns over(30-40 miles). Lately I keep getting voicemail that she tried calling me, saying she wants to say goodbye but when I call back, no answer. I'm a little wary, and I asked what is the real purpose of the call? 13.1 > 33.