is the nosiness ineffective, or inappropriate?

[mudpie]

"quote: "The smoking oracle is more challenging. hex 17.5 is following what is truly important to you. Again that friendly advice could have highlighted your overall decision to stop smoking just as well. But you took it to mean what do you really want right now? and answered by smoking until you had more of a reason to quit."

You are so right, 17.5 couldve been intrepreted as 'don't give up the goal, be loyal to your aim"
that didnt even occur to me at the time....and maybe the way I took it so clearly as to Go For it was because I wasnt fully committed yet. thanks.

 

[fkegan]

Listener,
nothing like feeling the need for a smoke to separate your high ideals from concrete action right here and now.

I not referring so much to getting someone ON to a particular track; I'm talking about seeing they're probably off track, and then going along with it. Letting them feel comfortable with not looking further. Not a "Don't do this" but a "Here's a way you might like to look at it."

Hi Lorrainep,

Looking over the shared readings, there are lots of times someone tries to offer another way to look at things. Generally, if the persons involved, asking the question or sharing their interpretation, newbie or old timer, truly need some objective guidance--they tend to reject and resent the positive suggestions or just latch onto some single word or phrase in the translation or commentary to run with, like scissors.

But then, running with scissors, grabbing the hot stove or licking the ice-frozen metal pole is the traditional way to learn better. It is tough on those watching the impending train wreck but then shared readings are like visiting the ER hoping to help which is great, but there is also a lot of gore and yuck to the experience too.

Luis,

There is individual Yi and there is team sport Yi--very different but each has its aficionados, though one rarely gets awarded so much as an ear no matter how well it goes.

The group version requires a certain flair to skewer the one asking the question for the amusement of the others--who then quite eagerly volunteer for their shot on the hot seat with their own rude skewer. I don't understand why, but folks find it thrilling and fun, like skinny dipping with snide remarks all around--apparently if it is shared by all involved folks find it cool and not an individual put-down. They know their issues and imperfections and to be able to have them discussed by a group without having to admit anything personally is a positive thing.

The Yi itself seems to do well at refereeing and umpiring. There is clearly implicit that the oracle sought is for the group scene and not an in depth confidential private thing. The oracle answer meets the need for what is appropriate to this situation at this time.

As to being a Junzi--I still maintain it is just an abstract lesson in trigram allusions and Tao potentialities, not concrete advice or the oracle judgment that the right folks are superior and the other guys are inferior. In general the Junzi is the one who applies the trigram lesson to themselves and leaves the other folks in peace. Therefore, it would never come up objectively---the individual would just be quiet and reflective. No fun.

I agree with your remarks on appropriateness, but isn't that obvious in the original question and the comments? My interpretation is for the higher good, yours is inappropriate and his is downright bad, evil and ugly--when actually we are each and all just blowing steam and avoiding personal reflection which would require us to have Junzi restraint.
Frank

 

[Trojina]

I'm prompted to point out a real contradiction inhow some people purport to think of the Yi. A while back there was a thread where a good few people including I think Meng and Listener compared the Yi to a 'wise old grandmother'.

Here on page 2 of thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5383&highlight=g

So then it was a 'wise old grandmother' who i would imagine was a caring kind of person who wouldn't just tell you about anything you asked but would presumably tailor her response to the level of understanding she thought you were at and who knows she might even consider your motivation in asking. Ie if you asked "granny where is the step ladder' she might consider you might want to climb to the highest shelf and steal all the chocolates which will make you sick" yet a week or two later Granny has gone and the Yi is a bland yet serene information machine which I guess its going to tell you anything at all. In any event however permissive ones grandmother I imagine she decides what she tells you and what she doesn't

See I'm confused. One minute we have you comparing the Yis answers to how your old granny might have answered you, the next minute we have something way more distanced. Can't be both can it ? And how can it be 'lower' of granny to answer in a caring way ?



I never could see the Yi as a grandmother BTW but i guess that depends on ones grandmother associations.

I don't much mind how people see the Yi its a personal choice but 'wise old Granny' to 'universal computer' is quite a leap.

 

[Trojina]

Frankly Frank I don't care what questions people ask the Yi. Its not my responsibilty is it

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis,

There is individual Yi and there is team sport Yi--very different but each has its aficionados, though one rarely gets awarded so much as an ear no matter how well it goes.

Frank,

Here is what I think of "team sport Yi". I get the feeling you are "third-party metaphor challenged"--which in the scheme of things would be huge contradiction for someone dedicated to the study of the Yijing--but I'm sure you'll get the picture of what I'm trying to say for the Yi not lending itself to "team sports"...

As to being a Junzi--I still maintain it is just an abstract lesson in trigram allusions and Tao potentialities, not concrete advice or the oracle judgment that the right folks are superior and the other guys are inferior. In general the Junzi is the one who applies the trigram lesson to themselves and leaves the other folks in peace. Therefore, it would never come up objectively---the individual would just be quiet and reflective. No fun.

No, Frank, the Junzi isn't as much of an abstraction as it is a metaphor for an ideal. Pretty much the same way Christ or the Buddha are metaphors of an ideal to look up to and emulate. The fact that, at some point in history, somebody was considered a Junzi and left his/her mark, is testament of an ideal all like-minded people should try to learn from and, to any possible extent, imitate. LiSe's thread on the subject, for example, was an application of the Junzi metaphor to the conceptual metaphors contained in the trigrams...

I agree with your remarks on appropriateness, but isn't that obvious in the original question and the comments? My interpretation is for the higher good, yours is inappropriate and his is downright bad, evil and ugly--when actually we are each and all just blowing steam and avoiding personal reflection which would require us to have Junzi restraint.

Well, apparently, it wasn't obvious enough... It took over 90 messages to reach some semblance of a consensus.

 

[Sparhawk]

I never could see the Yi as a grandmother BTW but i guess that depends on ones grandmother associations.

​

 

[Trojina]

oh don't get me wrong I loved my grandmother but somehow i could never quite figure her saying things anything like "the dragon is in the deep" and so on. She wasn't that deep. But when my bear lost an eye she made a new one with black wool which the Yi could never do.

 

[Sparhawk]

oh don't get me wrong I loved my grandmother but somehow i could never quite figure her saying things anything like "the dragon is in the deep" and so on. She wasn't that deep. But when my bear lost an eye she made a new one with black wool which the Yi could never do.

Actually, that was a blessing, I'm sure. If she started talking like that, most would likely think she was losing her marbles... Wise lady!

 

[Trojina]

Great video of the tennis BTW, it does illustrate your point well

 

[Trojina]

More to the point. What is an inappropriate question or Oracle answer? Generally, if the Yi dislikes your question it has its own range of ways to rebuke the you for it.



Frank

Thats why I don't care what people ask, like you said the Yi has its own ways to deflect questions it doesn't wish to directly answer. I agree with what you said here.

Quoting you because its my perception you've changed stance a few times in this thread which can get confusing.

 

[fkegan]

Frank,

Here is what I think of "team sport Yi". I get the feeling you are "third-party metaphor challenged"--which in the scheme of things would be huge contradiction for someone dedicated to the study of the Yijing--but I'm sure you'll get the picture of what I'm trying to say for the Yi not lending itself to "team sports"...

Luis,
I have no idea what it might mean to be "third party metaphor challenged." To me you just made a poorly crafted remark that when responded to you claimed was a special metaphor. The video is good, but that isn't any sort of team sport being shown at all.

The staged video from an elitist job ad most clearly is not a team sport--they are all incompetent independent players paid to make mischief for the ad. The video is a nice metaphor for Shared Readings...but 'team sport' isn't. Perhaps a better metaphor would be the blind leading the blind. Would a single interpreter of the Shared Reading be any better--generally, NO! Those strange interpretations are lousy each on their own, with the entire set of them at least there is some warning these are not the True Yi Oracle, just some strange individuals talking about the hexagrams.

A team, a group engaged in a joint enterprise for a common goal is a whole different kettle of metaphor. In terms of Shared Readings, that would suggest making them a shill for Hilary's paid services. The team of your video (actors playing to their script) moving folks to hire the employment firm of the ad. Then all the ruckus of the shared readings would have a joint purpose of convincing folks it was far better to hire Hilary than to suffer running that gauntlet.

No, Frank, the Junzi isn't as much of an abstraction as it is a metaphor for an ideal. Pretty much the same way Christ or the Buddha are metaphors of an ideal to look up to and emulate. The fact that, at some point in history, somebody was considered a Junzi and left his/her mark, is testament of an ideal all like-minded people should try to learn from and, to any possible extent, imitate. LiSe's thread on the subject, for example, was an application of the Junzi metaphor to the conceptual metaphors contained in the trigrams...

Christ or Buddha metaphors? I don't think so. They were each flesh and blood people who taught much simpler lessons than their later fame attributed to them. And then other folks still later try to see a metaphor in all that muddle for better something or other.

I truly believe the Junzi was never a flesh and blood person. He started out as a metaphor exercise of the Confucian school and then that metaphor got encrusted with imaginary personhood taken seriously as some actual high status to be imitated or claimed. The metaphor was a literary one, of applying trigram imagery to illustrate how to take a situation as an opportunity for ideal self-development.

Well, apparently, it wasn't obvious enough... It took over 90 messages to reach some semblance of a consensus.

Consensus? The same sillybillies are being silly as ever because they still have no awareness of the fundamental issue of the Junzi, it isn't a status one can claim to have achieved, it is a perspective of applying circumstances to inner reflection not outer projection.

I read what you post and take it seriously, My replies involve real disagreements with what you state, not because I can't see the metaphor, but because I do see the limitations of the "metaphor"--again is the problem outside you or is it an opportunity to reconsider what you are saying?"


Trojan,
The Yi a granny? Speaking 3 millennia old Chinese imagery? You are the one trying to have it both ways--an image comfortable to your personal experience and still all the complexities of the history of the text.

What you are missing is the detail that some folks have a personal relationship with the Oracle and some folks don't. This makes for the two sides of a deep canyon where Yi folks gather and shout at each other since they stand on such different ground separated by such a total divide.

The point brought up earlier was that we are each and all responsible for the train wrecks we observe so:

Frankly Frank I don't care what questions people ask the Yi. Its not my responsibilty is it

YES it is and your Karma for your inaction or action which are your faults which you can not evade just by looking down upon them from some imagined great height.

Where do you stand, Trojan, on the question of Yi oracles? What do they mean to YOU. Where do they come from and what is their intrinsic nature?

Frank

 

[fkegan]

Thats why I don't care what people ask, like you said the Yi has its own ways to deflect questions it doesn't wish to directly answer. I agree with what you said here.

Quoting you because its my perception you've changed stance a few times in this thread which can get confusing.

Trojan,
Oh? What changes do you note in my stance (never wide, though) are confusing you? I believe the Yi has the ability to answer any and all questions ideally. Those who maintain a personal relationship with the Yi Oracle have a different experience of it than those whose personal limitations do not allow for that and they must make other arrangements. Is it my stance you see changing or just the reflection in your glass bubble?

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis,
I have no idea what it might mean to be "third party metaphor challenged." To me you just made a poorly crafted remark that when responded to you claimed was a special metaphor. The video is good, but that isn't any sort of team sport being shown at all.

The staged video from an elitist job ad most clearly is not a team sport--they are all incompetent independent players paid to make mischief for the ad. The video is a nice metaphor for Shared Readings...but 'team sport' isn't.´-

I rest my case...

Further down...

A team, a group engaged in a joint enterprise for a common goal is a whole different kettle of metaphor. In terms of Shared Readings, that would suggest making them a shill for Hilary's paid services. The team of your video (actors playing to their script) moving folks to hire the employment firm of the ad. Then all the ruckus of the shared readings would have a joint purpose of convincing folks it was far better to hire Hilary than to suffer running that gauntlet.

Still clueless to what I'm talking about...

Christ or Buddha metaphors? I don't think so. They were each flesh and blood people who taught much simpler lessons than their later fame attributed to them. And then other folks still later try to see a metaphor in all that muddle for better something or other.

Am I the only one noticing this disconnection between what other people write and what Frank replies to?? Frank, I know very well who those were in historical terms. What survives though, is the memory of the exceptionality of their lives and example. As something we should strive to achieve, their example is a metaphor, something to be treated as a "symbol" for us to look and learn, a good ideal to follow. In that sense, the Junzi is just another metaphor for an ideal. Who cares if the Junzi was a flesh and blood person or not? That's pretty much irrelevant to the discussion of its qualities. It is the ideal embodied by the conceptual Junzi what's important. It is the fact that both Christ and Buddha, the example I used, were Junzi.

The metaphor was a literary one, of applying trigram imagery to illustrate how to take a situation as an opportunity for ideal self-development.

No, you made it "literary" and therein lies the problem of receiving spaghetti replies to simple concepts that are figurative in nature. You read the text but miss the emotion behind the words...

Consensus? The same sillybillies are being silly as ever because they still have no awareness of the fundamental issue of the Junzi, it isn't a status one can claim to have achieved, it is a perspective of applying circumstances to inner reflection not outer projection.

Of course, no one can never claim to have achieved Junzihood. That doesn't obliterate de ideal behind its metaphoric example. Don't you think?

I read what you post and take it seriously, My replies involve real disagreements with what you state, not because I can't see the metaphor, but because I do see the limitations of the "metaphor"--again is the problem outside you or is it an opportunity to reconsider what you are saying?"

Frank, for the most part, I reconsider by staying quiet. On the other hand, most of those instances I'm just bored to tears at the ping-pong nonsense and grand-standing...

There are no limitations to a metaphor, which are both, specific and open-ended; the limitation is on the one eyeballing it. If there were no natural limitations within the interpreter of metaphorical concepts, then Zen could be taken in a weekend seminar and Satori could be achieved within a month (this is a metaphor, figurative speech, in case you feel tempted to write five paragraph about Zen Buddhism...)

 

[dobro p]

Am I the only one noticing this disconnection between what other people write and what Frank replies to??

Answer: no, you're not.

Question: is it bloody-mindedness on his part, knee-jerk disputatiousness? Or does he just not give a damn enough to actually read what's been written and honor the author by responding to what's actually been written? I think the former. He admitted as much once, referring to his own astrological chart, saying that his pot-stirring tendencies have served him well in his life. I disagree. I think they serve to make people think he's either intentionally irritating, or unconsciously not connecting with reality. "Unconsciously not connecting with reality" is the politest way I can put it.

The fix: put him on ignore. I've enjoyed my time here more by not allowing myself the opportunity to trawl through his over-many, over-long posts that don't actually respond to what people have actually written. He's hopelessly disputatious. He likes to belittle people too. Engaging with him doesn't make you wiser or happier. When you and I were having a good time in another thread, he accused us both of being 'disconcerted'. Disputatious, belittling, and just doesn't get it. Put him on ignore. lol

 

[Sparhawk]

He likes to belittle people too. Engaging with him doesn't make you wiser or happier. When you and I were having a good time in another thread, he accused us both of being 'disconcerted'. Disputatious, belittling, and just doesn't get it.

LOL! Well, he may have a point there... You mean "disconcerted" as in "1 : to throw into confusion 2 : to disturb the composure of"?? That has my name written all over it!!!

 

[dobro p]

Aw gee... and I thought you were having a good time. I'll be more careful next time...

 

[fkegan]

What survives though, is the memory of the exceptionality of their lives and example. As something we should strive to achieve, their example is a metaphor, something to be treated as a "symbol" for us to look and learn, a good ideal to follow.

Hi Luis,
I guess I would say I simply disagree with you. All sorts of things survive from Jesus and Buddha, the least of which is their actual lives or how they differed from most folks or what it would be like for you or me to try to live out their example.

A good metaphor is a thing of beauty not just a flip emotional retort, confusing the two is its own problem. 'So many cooks in an oracle interpretation make for a lousy dish' or 'most shared readings with many interpretations are more ugly camel than sleek horse' rather than 'I have an ad video in mind, but I call it team sport.' A genuine team sport approach to oracle interpretation would be interesting. A number of folks using not just their own personal perspectives but clearly distinct techniques interpret the same hexagrams--one from the Wilhelm, another from trigrams and nuclear and resulting, another from structural analysis, etc.

When what you say causes different comments from what you expect what is the heart of the problem?

Then we get down into the truly muddy murk of Dobro's attempts at psychoanalysis as a fit of peak when his general silliness gets reflected back at him. What is the distinction between To ignore and Ignorance? Or Ignored is Bliss?

"Disconcerted"? Accused? I haven't a clue what that refers to at all. Though I do appreciate your about it all. I join you rolling around from metaphor to meta-more. And being very Zen all the while...
Frank

 

[hilary]

Two words, people: Open Space. This isn't about the I Ching any more.

 

[Sparhawk]

Two words, people: Open Space. This isn't about the I Ching any more.

No, but that was quite civilized, I'll say. Don't you think? Don't worry, I know when usefulness (and fun) stops in a thread and didn't need the reminder.

 

[dobro p]

Two words, people: Open Space. This isn't about the I Ching any more.

Two words, Hilary: I disagree. This is about how users communicate about the I Ching. As long as it doesn't become rife and spread to other threads and turn the forum into a flame patch, the best place to give somebody feedback on their behavior is in the thread where they demonstrated that behavior. Both the fun and the bumps are part of the package.

 

[meng]

I have just one word: cake

 

[meng]

I don't much mind how people see the Yi its a personal choice but 'wise old Granny' to 'universal computer' is quite a leap.

19-20 could depict that difference alone, not to mention that there are 64 faces of Yi.

 

[Tohpol]

I have just one word: cake

Any particular favourite?

Quite partial to pineapple-upside-down cake myself...And being a Hairy Nazi-Hare with hairy lotus feet, this is quite fitting really. They liked that sort of thing apparently. The upside down, inverted variety I mean...

Topal

 

[hilary]

No, but that was quite civilized, I'll say. Don't you think? Don't worry, I know when usefulness (and fun) stops in a thread and didn't need the reminder.

Two words, Hilary: I disagree. This is about how users communicate about the I Ching. As long as it doesn't become rife and spread to other threads and turn the forum into a flame patch, the best place to give somebody feedback on their behavior is in the thread where they demonstrated that behavior. Both the fun and the bumps are part of the package.

There's a great big greyish area here, of course. (Not unlike the weather outside my window this morning.) It's only natural to respond on the same thread, but at some point you get responses to the responses to the responses, and the whole thread (often closely followed by half the forum) is about how users communicate about how they communicate.

You, personally, might be acutely aware of how civilised the conversation is, and when to stop before things spiral down into a flame war. Doesn't mean that one isn't imminent, unfortunately. At least, that's how it looked to me last night - though I could be wrong.

So yes - if anyone really wants to have an extended conversation about personalities, Open Space remains the place to do it.

I have just one word: cake

My reading for this week is 52.1 to 22. So at this point I'm going to stomp on my desire to hover over the thread in a fever of anxiety about who might be upset with me for what, and leave all this to your own judgement, like I usually do.

 

[wealth]

As primarily a non-yijing reader, and seeing the many points in this thread I have found it interesting.

This thread reminds me of the troubles in Northern Island followed by 9/11 and 7/7, each party finds it hard to see the other's point of view and resists it to their utmost. In the above references this has been paid for in blood; here stress and anger.

On another divination forum I belong I have recently done a long spate of readings for whomever wanted one there is this one girl who asked about her relationship with her ex--not just with me but others too. I told her he had changed and she needed to see his point of view, she almost turned on me because of this. Out of interest I talked to another person who read for her he said that she was fishing for false hope. The last stab of this story I saw was when she 'wished' to get back together the reader said it was possible but would be ugly...

Now what does this have to do with this thread--everything and nothing. I may help others to help themselves either in my picture of the ideal or by what the divination suggests to me. I am dogmatic, yes, but I try to be open to new ideas and ideals.

I know we'll not get much of , but will get plenty of and . We all want to be :bows: but are more likely to get or , I want to remain about this issue so everyone.

I'm voting for chocolate cake!

 

[Sparhawk]

I have just one word: cake

If you say so...

 

[meng]

If you say so...

Ah, relief.

Topal, I certainly didn't just mean to eat cake; good heavens, far too many calories for any more than an occasional slice! No, I mean the miracle of how seemingly unrelated ingredients can blend so well into such a delicious end result.

 

[Sparhawk]

how seemingly unrelated ingredients can blend so well into such a delicious end result.

And the occasional feathers...

 

[proserpine]

is nosiness ineffective or inappropriate

Dobro, I read your post twice and 3 x read your question about whether the points others came up with on asking the Yi about another person-- renders your view that it's wrong to do so beside the point .
I don't understand *that*, I'm sorry to say.
How do the opinions make it besides the point?

To answer what is closest to my own point of view:Not certain any 1, really.
I have read answers that I believe were certainly about the other person.But mostly, I find all readings point to our own frame of mind.
There always seem to be suggestions or hints of the best attitude to assume ot mode of action to be in, but almost always I still find my answers to be pseaking to my deeper self.
I don't know that asking much about someone else will help much because in my experience I've found we still need to understand our own reactions and feelings most.
Now, I don't think there is wrong in asking how best to conduct myself with say-a difficult person, or, how best to approach the next meeting, get-together, conversation with someone(s)etc.
Uusally I just don't get very much information about others--but, I will , for instance receive an answer that tells me whether there is a likelihood of being understood or supported.
And, while the answer I believe anyway, always points one to how it will be for *us* not someone else the fact is, if (as an example) I receive #36 Darkening of the Light, about my relationship wih another person, it's very obvious that I'm likely not only misunderstood by them, but, I'm in a situation where any attempt to really communicate my ideas or feelings with her/him/it/them is useless.
What's more,there's no any hope of honest open communication.
I already know there's differnt ways this hexagram, and even my own words can apply- of course--as even to my *own* darkening of light (my own lack of clarity) for example..
However, my only point there as to say that imo some answers leave no doubt as to the other person or organization's state of mind or ability .
Know what I mean?

 

[meng]

I know we'll not get much of , but will get plenty of and . We all want to be :bows: but are more likely to get or , I want to remain about this issue so everyone.

I'm voting for chocolate cake!

:bows: