Is this correct? I see many definitions of what is Zhen and Xun etc. Help please.

[Freedda]

So you're not the one adressed (I didn't quote you, i quoted elk) .... I'm Muslim! Why should i be ignorant? Muslims are generally hard-working highly educated people.

And does your objection on me mean you think I Ching is superior to The God ... ? Are you seeking trouble? I can research anything anytime ... and i'm not obligated to do this for you now. Its me whom benefits from this. Not you. I am not thankful to your contribution here, ...

Mustafa, I know that some of what you said was in response to Moss Elk, but this is an open forum and anyone can comment on anything said here.

To be clear, what I said has nothing to do with your religion. I have no objection to anyone's religion, only to what hatreds, or harm or oppresion they do in the name of their religions, but you find this happening in almost all religions.

I make no comparision between God and the Yijing, mainly because I have no strong believe in God (at least as ascribed to by most religions), so I can't draw any conclusions. What I can say - based on my own experience - is that I sometimes find things in other beliefs and systems such as Buddhism, or the Tarot or folklore and myth which - for me - resonate with ideas I find in the Yijing, but I'd never want to rely on a study of any of these to gain a full understand of the Yi. For that, I'd study the Yi.

What I was responding to is similar to what Moss Elk said:

Moss Elk: Your question is not about the I Ching. Your question is about qualities ascribed ... by another system or systems,

Earlier you had asked for advice on how to understand the trigrams - asking for keywords, meanings, and so forth. I and others provided you with a lot of information and resources for this.

But I never saw you respond to this, and it almost seems to me that you bypassed what we had shared, and instead went dirrectly to unrelated systems and beliefs such as 'temperaments and personality disorders' and other unrelated systems, even religious ones.

As you said, you are entirely free to do this, but it seems to me like you're trying to put ornaments and paint on a house before you've even built the foundation or the walls - which in this case would be to have some understanding of the meanings of the trigrams and the hexagrams and the Yi. But again, you are free to explore any way you'd like to.

Regards, D.

 

[Mustafa]

Fredda. You quoted me wrong or evil, depicting me as a demon, demonizing me.

So I DON'T want your regards.

 

[hilary]

Mustafa, I've just started a private conversation with you: you can find it by going to 'Community' in the main menu and then clicking the envelope icon under 'Membership'. Please do!

 

[Freedda]

Fredda. You quoted me wrong or evil, depicting me as a demon, demonizing me. So I DON'T want your regards.

Mustafa, I never said you are a demon or evil. So I apologize if you took it that way. D.

 

[Mustafa]

Mustafa, I never said you are a demon or evil. So I apologize if you took it that way. D.

You didn't say that. But your actions says otherwise. You are what you do, possibly not what you say.

 

[Freedda]

You didn't say that. But your actions says otherwise.

Mustafa, thank you for clarifying that. I don't mean in any way to imply anything evil about you - not through my actions, nor my words. D.

 

[legume]

Please tell me if this table, the first table on this website is correct. Preferably if you have time if all this site is correct.

first of all, i don't think anyone here has enough knowledge to say if the sites are correct. but considering the blog was done by an amateur researcher, or someone who is simply interested in the topic - i'd say the blog materials are open for interpretation, but not necessarily correct.

as to wiki - it presents multiple associations of the trigrams wihin different systems. i would trust wiki more as it at least provides some sources.

but personally, when it comes to linking trigrams to chakras, areas of the body, or any different meanings (while drawing from any systems that i value) - i stick to what "feels" right to me, rather than what the internet is saying. so to me neither wiki nor that sites are correct... but i still find them interesting, so thanks for sharing.

not sure still though how the jump happened from the two links, to question about the meaning of lines (as my Chinese teacher used to say - it's depend on) and then even deeper into spirituality of tabula rasa (or in sufi tradition fitrah i guess). these are very broad and very deep questions that i really doubt can be efficiently discussed on I Ching divination forum...

 

[Master M]

Greetings to all travellers.

I think that what Mustafa may be trying to point out is that the arrangement of the trigrams is different for King Wens Later Heaven, than for Earlier Heaven. Which one is taught as the correct one on OnlineClarity.
I think he is asking why one form of Bagua, or trigram arrangement is preferred over the other in some forms of the I Ching.

Miss Elk said:
"The wiki page you linked to is about Bagua & Taoism . The Trigrams Zhen and Kun, and the I Ching predate Bagua and Taoism.
The chart references many things that most of us here do not study. (body part related to a trigram, chinese zodiac, accupuncture....etc.) "

With due deference to the honorable Moss Elk I would have to disagree with this interpretation.
As a Daoist I would have to remind the learned friend that while Taoism only became into existence in more recent time, that is only in a name, the Dao itself of course exists from the beginning of time.
It took a time before the work that is entitled the Dao came into existence of course, but the meaning of Dao existed long before the I Ching was ever invented. All things, including the I Ching come from the Dao.
Those that know the meaning of the Dao know that nothing is separate, that all things are reflected in everything else. Just as the Vedas describe Indra's net.
Those that know the body know that all the body is represented by the rest of the body. The whole body is shown in the feet, the eyes, the hands.
The zodiac has existed from the beginning if time, even if it took humanity a while to set it down as a system, it influences have always affected us before there ever was an I Ching.

With all respect to those that may concur with the view that there is no connection between the I Ching and the other mentioned studies, those that have the knowledge of the Dao know that all things are connected. We study all things even if we do not know this.

It would seem that Mustafas question is important. The arrangement of early heaven, or the arrangement of later heaven. Those that have studied this will know that there are of course other arrangements for Trigrams.

I too would like to know which version of Trigram arrangement is the proper one and why that might be the case.

Blessings on all travellers.

M

 

[Gmulii]

Greetings to all travellers.

I think that what Mustafa may be trying to point out is that the arrangement of the trigrams is different for King Wens Later Heaven, than for Earlier Heaven. Which one is taught as the correct one on OnlineClarity.
I think he is asking why one form of Bagua, or trigram arrangement is preferred over the other in some forms of the I Ching.

Miss Elk said:
"The wiki page you linked to is about Bagua & Taoism . The Trigrams Zhen and Kun, and the I Ching predate Bagua and Taoism.
The chart references many things that most of us here do not study. (body part related to a trigram, chinese zodiac, accupuncture....etc.) "

With due deference to the honorable Moss Elk I would have to disagree with this interpretation.
As a Daoist I would have to remind the learned friend that while Taoism only became into existence in more recent time, that is only in a name, the Dao itself of course exists from the beginning of time.
It took a time before the work that is entitled the Dao came into existence of course, but the meaning of Dao existed long before the I Ching was ever invented. All things, including the I Ching come from the Dao.
Those that know the meaning of the Dao know that nothing is separate, that all things are reflected in everything else. Just as the Vedas describe Indra's net.
Those that know the body know that all the body is represented by the rest of the body. The whole body is shown in the feet, the eyes, the hands.
The zodiac has existed from the beginning if time, even if it took humanity a while to set it down as a system, it influences have always affected us before there ever was an I Ching.

With all respect to those that may concur with the view that there is no connection between the I Ching and the other mentioned studies, those that have the knowledge of the Dao know that all things are connected. We study all things even if we do not know this.

It would seem that Mustafas question is important. The arrangement of early heaven, or the arrangement of later heaven. Those that have studied this will know that there are of course other arrangements for Trigrams.

I too would like to know which version of Trigram arrangement is the proper one and why that might be the case.

Blessings on all travellers.

M

Hi.
They are both correct. They are just applied in different situations, much like we would use different screwdriver depending what kind of screws we choose to work with.


Explaining it, however is more difficult.
Lets say we have a idea to make company. We have friends that are enthusiastic, we have amazing plans how it will go in the best way possible and we also have hopes it will all go according to plan.

This is earlier heaven. Its perfect by itself and it flows easily, working with that in any step would need Earlier Heaven alignment.
Then we actually make it. Nothing goes according to plan, unexpected factors come up, people start behaving in unexpected ways etc. Its not bad, but its very different then the plan. Its flowing in Later alignment now.

So basically, we use Early when something isn't born yet, we use Later after its born.
Making most of the world around us fall into Later alignment(as it already has been born/exists).

Yet its very important to know when to use one and when the other.
Looking in the practices of Internal Alchemy we can see important part of Qi Gong in most systems is connected Du Mei and Ren Mei channels. Then there is a cyclic flow nourishing the organs and meridians through the body.

The important part here is that this isn't something new. The idea is to return our way of breathing to Pre Heaven way, as back then it had purer influence then it can ever have in Post(Later) Heaven.

In that sense, it becomes very good way to see it, breathing before someone is born - Earlier alignment. Breathing after that - Later alignment.

Of course, similar to Qi Gong, when we can return our microcosmic orbit in Earlier Heaven Flow, during life there are many times events can return something to early heaven flow. That is how we know someone will get married for exmaple, or that relationship is going well. But that is very extensive topic and it needs knowledge of the specific systems.

In short - both are accurate, both are extensively used all around the Chinese schools. But they have specific circumstances when each of them should and is applied.

 

[Freedda]

I think that what Mustafa may be trying to point out is that the arrangement of the trigrams is different for King Wens Later Heaven, than for Earlier Heaven.

When I read it, and then reread what was said, I don't see at all where he was asking about the later and earlier arrangements of the trigrams. He was asking for assistance in understanding the meanings and associations for trigrams, as they are related to and used in the Yijing.

... the Dao came into existence of course, but the meaning of Dao existed long before the I Ching was ever invented. All things, including the I Ching come from the Dao.

For me, I don't really care if the 'Dao' has been around since forever, or just showed up last Sunday, after watching a Seahawks game.

The more important point for me is when humans became aware of it (whatever 'it' is) and to what extent; I think, 1) this has been a gradual process over many centuries, 2) that there is still, after these many centuries, no agreement about what exactly the Dao or this path is, and 3) that we don't really know how much the authors of the Yi were aware of this so-called Dao when they wrote the Yi.

I believe that Yi's authors very much had a sense of the human condition, and also of ways in which the universe worked, and they likely had some sense of opposites (which we might call yin/yang), but that this latter idea was not fully developed.

What they did know likely came from their close observance of both people and nature: the behavior of animals, the roles of family members, the seasons, the movement of the sun and stars, the direction of rivers, daylight and nighttime, sunny and shady sides of the mountain, hills and valleys, hot and cold, and so forth.

But I don't think the Yi represents a fully developed Daoist view of the world. I base my belief (and it is only that), on the fact that the Yi doesn't mention 'the Dao' (except as a 'dao', an actual path or road) and the Yi's text makes almost no use of the words yin and yang (one of them is used only once in the Yi; the other is not used at all).

Those that know the meaning of the Dao know that ... all things are reflected in everything else .... (T)o those ... with the view that there is no connection between the I Ching and other ... studies ....

I never said (and I think Moss Elk never said) that there are no connections between the trigrams and other systems such as astrology or qigong. Mustafa was asking for basic information and descriptions of what the trigrams mean (in relation to the YI), and I found the web sites he mentioned far from clear or 'basic' or even correct.

For example, if you look at the Wiki site there are almost no references, or explanations, or sources sited, so for all we know whomever wrote about these 'connections' between the trigrams and the planets, artifacts, meridians, and the zodiac, etc. were MSU (making sh_t up), or pulling material from other questionable sources to come up with these 'connections'.

(Interestingly, on the Wiki site the trigram meanings are very similar for both the later and earlier heaven arrangements.)

Further, the author of the second website says that this is something they concocted - and if you look, you'll see that they mix up the meanings for Thunder and Lake, which is further evidence that this might not be the best place to get basic information about the trigrams and the Yi.

For me the bottom line is, Mustafa asked for some basic information about the trigrams and the Yi, and that is what some of us tried to provide to him.

Best, D.

 

[Freedda]

They are both correct. They are just applied in different situations, much like we would use different screwdriver depending what kind of screws we choose to work with.

@Gmulii

It seems that Mustafa is interested in the different arrangements, see below, But, I'm still going to suggest that you might want to start your own thread here in Exploring Divination about the early and late trigram arrangments, or perhaps find an existing thread about this subject to post to. (And I see no reason not to put it here in this forum instead of in the 'Other' forum).

The reason for this is that I think you're post will benefit and perhaps get more responses than if you bury it in another thread like this one, which has covered many ideas and points of view.

Again, this is just a suggestion on my part, not a demand, and I'm making it because I think your post would benefit - after all, you don't want to 'bury the headline' if you don't have to.

All the Best, D.

 

[Mustafa]

Yes please tell about Earlier and later Heaven (and how you know two will get married, i want to marry eventually) and please put a link.

Kindly
Mustafa

 

[Gmulii]

@Gmulii

It seems that Mustafa is interested in the different arrangements, see below, But, I'm still going to suggest that you might want to start your own thread here in Exploring Divination about the early and late trigram arrangments, or perhaps find an existing thread about this subject to post to. (And I see no reason not to put it here in this forum instead of in the 'Other' forum).

The reason for this is that I think you're post will benefit and perhaps get more responses than if you bury it in another thread like this one, which has covered many ideas and points of view.

Again, this is just a suggestion on my part, not a demand, and I'm making it because I think your post would benefit - after all, you don't want to 'bury the headline' if you don't have to.

All the Best, D.

Thanks.
I'm in somewhat challenging position, though. From one point of view, what has been accomplished here is very important to preserve. There is understanding of the text with the lines much beyond what one could expect.
From another, with internet, forums, trade relations and overall with opening of the worlds borders somewhat, now we can learn stuff that Legge and Wilhelm never had the chance to. And its vast, as most of it is deveoped for thousands of years by countless schools, masters and practitioners through China and places around it.

So I'm trying to bring parts of that while preserving what members here have accomplished. To do that I can't post too much, too often or make too many topics. And the more difficult replies are to find the better for the community. The info is there when one looks around but it isn't overlapping what is already here.

I have some plan of posting some more topics in the future, that can easily be integrated with the text. As one of the popular Feng Shui systems(XuanKong Da Gua) actually works a lot with the changing lines, so the text can be directly used with it. In that way someone that studied the changing lines for long enough, can suddenly find all that knowledge relevant for a very advanced Feng Shui system as well.
But have to be done very slowly, or there is a risk to create pressure on what was already made and that isn't the idea.