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Jiao Shi Yi Lin (?Å???Õ?Ñ)

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chris

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Does anyone know of an English or Russian translation of the Jiao Shi Yi Lin (?Å???Õ?Ñ)?

I would also be very interested in finding an electronic text of the book.

Regards,
Chris Gait

P.S. The Jiao Shi Yi Lin is an ancient Chinese book that has a brief, 10-character-or-so text for each of the 4096 permutations of one hexagram changing to another.
 

sparhawk

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Hi Chris! Long time no read you...


Regarding your question on the "Forest of Changes", as a matter of fact you don't have to go much further that this very site to find a link to a version of it: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_resources/directory.html

There you will find a link to San Shan Yi Jing which is a piece of software that includes a version of "The forest of changes" integrated in it.

I hope this helps,

Regards,

Luis
 

hilary

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Sorry to have to say that the 'forest of changes' in the San Shan is not the forest you have in mind, but just a part of the software dedicated to adding additional resources.

It is excellent software and well worth buying, just not for that reason.

I think the person you need is Harmen Mesker - have a look down this page for some information and extracts.
 

sparhawk

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Me again,

I've got ahead of myself... I should read with more attention. What in San Shan refers to Yi Lin and he calls it "Forest of Changes" is actually a type of memo database of consultations to use with the software. Not the actual book you are looking for. Kind of deceiving the name of "Forest of Changes" for that addendum, but hey, is a free world.

On the other hand the software seems interesting so I may give it a try...

I will post in another thread a link I found while looking for some information for you. Very interesting reading on "Thoughtful descendants and thought-full ancestors: How living minds prolong the existence of the dead in early China" which is a very recent college paper by K.E. Brashier.

Sorry for jumping ahead of good facts...

Cheers,

Luis
 

sparhawk

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Hi Hillary,

It appears our messages crossed each other.... I screwed that one....

Luis
 

pedro

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Hey Luis, I made the same mistake a while ago
When Harmen mentioned the yilin here I found it very interesting, and googled it (no luck), including "forest of changes" which gives the mentioned link. It was disapointing to find out there is no translation whatsoever, let alone an online version

Incidentally, I think most of it can be realised to an extent by thinking about the two hexagrams alone, as a pair, and somehow intermixing their meanings as a cohesive whole, letting them relate and communicate with each other. For that one just has to forget the lines, and I think it can be just as valid an option for interpretation (in fact I do it often, specially when there are too many lines, or they dont speak to me, and I get a feeling that the lines were only there to show the relating hexagram). For instance, a while ago I got 34->50 (lines 1 and 6 moving). By a more traditional approach I would read lines 1 and 6 of 34 and feel quite demoralized by the negative omens. But by thinking of them as a resonating pair, one is faced to think: what harm can it be in the mix of 34 and 50? 34 is strong, powerful, and only needs to be cautious of arrogance or using its power to lesser purposes. But then in conjunction with 50, that power is used for the higher good, no doubt, and so this combination cant be nothing but positive, despite of the bad lines.
 

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One of the many many things I try to do (I hope I will ever be able to finish some of them), is a translation of the YiLin. I don't think this one will ever be finished, there are 4000something verses. What I have so far can be found at:
http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/chin_text.htm
For PDF's of the entire Yilin (Chinese), see:
http://book.susho.com/yixue.htm
I have the simplified (digital) text in Chinese of the first 18 hexagrams, and the fullform of the first 6. Cannot find the links right now, I got all these links from Harmen. But if you want them (the texts), just mail to me.

No translation alas, I hope someone finds one somewhere.

LiSe
 

pedro

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Hey LiSe, thats great news that you and Harmen are taking this iniciative. I wish I could help but I dont have the skills. Im trying to collect the meanings for 01-9, a line (#1:4) that interests me a lot, but I suspect even this 16 characters will take me forever. I havent got a clue how to search for a particular character in http://zhongwen.com if I dont know the pinyin equivalent, would it be too much to ask for some directions? I know it goes by radicals, but Im lost from there. I dont pretend to be able to help, I just want to collect all the meanings, and try to make sense of it myself
 

heylise

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I happened to take a look at 1 to 9 this morning! The sentence is not yet perfect, but more or less understandable.

1 to 9 in the Yilin:
Front and back of garment fit together in symmetry (revolve axis). Obey heaven without worry. Then moving builds (establishes) virtue. Grants pleasure and together (all on same level) reside (living, dwelling).
Ju4 dou3 jun4 shu1
Shun4 tian1 wu2 you1
Suo3 xing2 zao4 de2
Yu3 (or yu4) le4 bing4 ju1

Have fun searching at Zhongwen

If someone else wants to know a combination, then mail in thes thread. Only 18 or below to any other hexagram. I have to find the rest in Chinese yet.

LiSe
 

pedro

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Hey LiSe, thanks a lot
Im having a lot of fun already!! and I found a way to identify the characters in zhongwen, I just copy paste from your page to the input box below, that also gives the sound file
Its a pity there arent the whole 4096 changes, but hey, who's complaining? Even the 5 you have on your site, change to all the rest, so we can get new perspectives over those relating hex's.
Anyway, now I'll be picking a change from time to time, collecting all the 16 characters from zhongwen (a bit tedious, its all graphicall, so I must alt-prtscr and edit the picture), and trying to sort out a meaning (for the next 3 months...)
I dont have much hopes of actually translating acurately, cause there are so many meanings per character, that once someone points each particular meaning it becomes logical, but prior to that its quite a "forest of meanings" that I cant get much sense out of it. But Im learning, and thats what matters
seeya
 

pedro

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Ok, I finished 1-09, I can understand your (LiSe's) interpretation, but Im having trouble understanding that first line...
How do you go from
*lapel, border of garment; skirt
*container, big dipper
*troops on the move, transport, luck, fortune
*pivot
to "Front and back of garment fit together in symmetry"?
Incidentally, it was interesting finding that le4 refers also to drums and music. Indeed this line has appeared when asking about a musical project that is related to percussion

Another cool line is 4-59 (I wish I had 59-4 as well, as that 5th line is very interesting). Anyway, I gathered all the meanings, and made a humble attempt at translating. Its really crude, but I thought we could all use a good laugh, so here it is:

"Tremble and fear
Many evil spirits
Following the path leaves disaster behind
Dont aprove (of) continued entanglements"

(ok, you can all stop laughing now
)
 

heylise

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I translate the Yilin! 4096 verses.


You know what happens when someone joins in at translating? 4096 verses divided by 2 is 2048 p/p LiSe and Harmen


Pedro joins too!!! 1365 verses p/p


LiSe
 

pedro

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LOL!!!!!!!!

...
lets see, if I manage 5 per week (optimistic) that will take me till... summer 2008!

thats cool



resume bouncing!!!!

(I'm the one on the left)
 

heylise

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Been busy...

I mailed to Kenneth Brashier if there was a translation of the Yilin, and he said no. But in the same mail I asked for an electronic version, and he overlooked that one. So I mailed again, but he did not answer yet.

I downloaded the entire Yilin from www.book.susho.com/yixue.htm (Harmen gave me the link). 17 files with an average of 60 pages! And now I am frantically numbering them, just imagine they get mixed up...

LiSe
 

heylise

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Quote Pedro: " having trouble understanding that first line... How do you go from *lapel, border of garment; skirt *container, big dipper *troops on the move, transport, luck, fortune *pivot to "Front and back of garment fit together in symmetry"? "

LiSe:
Ju, lapel, 'front and back parts of clothing'.
Dou, big dipper, also means 'fit together'.
Yun, transport
Shu, pivot (on which a door turns), revolve

I think that 'symmetry' was a bit too free, but revolve-pivot gave me an image of 'all around', all sides of the garment. So I made it:
"Front and back of garment fit together all around
Obey heaven without worry
Then moving builds (establishes) virtue
Grants pleasure and residing together in equality"

Not a very beautiful translation yet, and I saw now that in the fullform there are two characters for dipper. This one is dipper and also fit-together in simplified, but in fullform there is another one for fit-together. The one here has as meanings: 1 sth. shaped like a cup/dipper, 2 whorl (of fingerprint) 3 Big Dipper, 4 measure for grain.
Front and back of garment in shape of cup revolve
or: .. like the Dipper revolve ..
Needs some more thinking.


Pedro:
..Another cool line is 4-59 (I wish I had 59-4 as well, as that 5th line is very interesting). Anyway, I gathered all the meanings, and made a humble attempt at translating. It's really crude, but I thought we could all use a good laugh, so here it is:

"Tremble and fear
Many evil spirits
Following the path leaves disaster behind
Don't approve (of) continued entanglements".

LiSe:
Shock, fear, terror, dread.
Many fears and evils.
Following Dao makes things hard.
Cannot make a step.

I like your evil spirits better. And I think the 'leaving disaster' makes more sense. Liu and nan as one word do mean 'make things hard', but here they are probably used as two separate characters. But after that comes 'cannot make a step', and that is why I chose for make-hard.
Literally (hm.. literal Chinese..): not permit use step. I searched for 'step' in the Shi-Jing, and there it is 'the course (of the state, of heaven)'. Maybe it is 'cannot find (my) course', or 'not permitting a course'.

Pedro:.. (ok, you can all stop laughing now [
]) ..
Not laughing at all, your first attempts at Chinese - I think you are doing a great job. A year ago I tried to translate something of the Yilin, and it was so hard that I postponed it for much much later. No idea what changed in the meantime.

LiSe
 

pedro

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Dear LiSe,

Re: "Front and back of garment fit together all around", its hard to make sense of it. what is your guess? the garments fit together may mean we are properly dressed for facing the challenges this line mentions? Or, and this is just a wild guess, can it mean dressing front to back? I'd go for the first, as I sense it somehow means we have the proper garments fro whatever we choose to do

As for the other, thanks for correcting my (pseudo)translation. I find it a little harsh, by opposition to the actual line which is inspiring and full of promises. Why would "Following Dao" make "things hard"? perhaps makes things endure? In any case I cant believe there is a hint NOT to follow the dao. And I like the "cannot find the course" of last line. I vote for this last one, cause it makes sense with the line text, while "cannot make a step" seems like paralisis (the actual line speaks of submiting to the teacher that will unveil the path)

Im gathering some of my fave lines from the 1st 18 I now have the texts (thanks again LiSe
) and will post my awkward results here when I get a chance

This is actually quite fun, people, you should try it, everyone. Imagine how cool you'll look when your chums at the pub ask what you've been doing, and you say: "hu, not much, havin a few beers, translating some old chinese texts..."
 

heylise

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The Yilin looks very much like the ShiJing, the book of odes. Many verses even come from that one (not my discovery but Harmen's).

Yilin 3 to 1:
Shallow cypress boat, tossed around ceaselessly
Tormented awake or asleep
Cherishing great sadness
Not a moment meeting benevolence
Returning and hiding in poor house

Shijing ode 26:
Tossed is that cypress boat,
Wave-tossed it floats.
My heart is in turmoil, I cannot sleep.
But secret is my grief.
¡K I found that they were angry with me..
¡K Long to take wing and fly away.

So there is very often in the beginning an image to set the atmosphere. Like the little fox in the Yijing too.
In 1-9 I think the garment is used as an image of how one should be. Front (or face, what is visible) and back (thoughts, intentions) should be a whole together. Then one will get all the nice things which follow.

About 4-59: I don`t really understand it yet. As if every line makes sense, but they do not yet fit together.

Some days ago I listened to a long story by a man of 80 years. It began with the subject it was supposed to be about, but then it wandered to his youth, his accomplishments, and many things more. I asked the Yi what kind of a story this was, and it answered #10 to #58.
In the Yilin this is:

Dark rugged hair and beard
I return East to the tall home-town
The red bird leads the way, the clever tortoise carries the villages
Satisfied supporting heaven's gate
See me, determined gentleman
Rider and mount complete at ease

It was like a Western, John Wayne riding home after saving the world from the bandits.

LiSe
 

heylise

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I found Val's 50 to 8, except for one character:

Living in a land with few sources
On the high mountains the clouds die off
The car moves by thousand villages
The dirt spreads over the lattice of the wheels
and makes me ??

The last character has "heart" in it, so probably something like sad, nauseous, or mixed-feelings.

No idea if you can do anything with it.
(the original question is here: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?48/753 )


LiSe
 

cal val

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Egad LiSe...

The first line is literally exactly where I am at the moment...in a land of few sources...at the foot of the Blueridge Mountains.

And what's even more uncanny...there's no way in and no way out...except by car that will pass "a thousand villages" (metaphorically speaking) before it gets to a land of even "just enough sources."

Of course, I'm sure there's something deeper to the poem, but it's 'surface' reality is just so real for me!

I can't wait until you (or someone) finds the translation for the last word. It's possibly the key to the car...*grin*

THANK YOU!

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 
H

hmesker

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Hi LiSe and Val,

The last character seems to be 'huan4' (GSR 159f, Mathews 2240), meaning 'worry; anxiety; disaster'.

Best,

Harmen.
 

cal val

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Thank you Harmen!

Interesting because it comes after I've stopped worrying about being stuck here for the rest of my life.

Even more interesting is the timing of this reading. I talked about the many dangers confronting me in this town in my first post on Clarity in the "Waiting, waiting, waiting" thread.

One of the many dangers: When I first came here to help family, it didn't take me long to realize this town is in its death throes. Obstinacy and fear of change on the part of the rich and powerful have stopped any chance of new industry being born and old industry thriving. There are only two large industries here that employ most of the working population.

Last year, the death rattle got louder as the main industry here (the company I work for) was almost de-listed on the NYSE. They re-organized and refinanced and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. However...this year they were forced to lay a few hundred people off. The lay off was so big, the unemployment office here couldn't handle the influx of traffic and asked the company to file automatic unemployment claims on behalf of the employees. Unemployment claims were filed for ALL employees. And the death rattle turns into last gasps of breath.

Well...here's the flat-line news. Goodyear, who just announced they're on the brink of bankruptcy and are closing plants in several locations, is the other large industry here...and this is one of the locations they're closing....


*gulp*

I guess this is my cue to get out now...an action that is already in motion...that started just after I got 50-8...before I knew what it meant...and before the Goodyear news.

Thanks LiSe and Harmen.

Cheerio the noo,

Val
 

heylise

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Many mails about 50 lately. This is the Yilin verse for 50 without moving lines:

Accumulating chiefs of virtue
A government benevolent and kind
Yi and L?are the right-hand men
The state is rich, the people quiet

(the minister YiYin was an ancient benefactor of Shang dynasty, and LüShang of the Zhou dynasty was accorded the title support of the state and got the title of Marquis of L?

LiSe
 

heylise

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Long long ago David asked the Yi about his destiny. He got 1 to 61.

I translated the Yilin line and it says:

Shun promotes the Great Yu
To stone-level the wilds
He goes and visits the royal hall
And honors the governor of water and soil.

Not sure if it is right but I think it gives a 'picture'.

LiSe
 
H

hmesker

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"To stone-level the wilds"

Looking at the construction of the sentence, "shi yi zhi ye", I got the impression thet 'shi yi' was a name. Searching the internet for it I found out that 'shi yi' appears in chapter 16 of the Shan Hai Jing. Here it is 'the Stone tribe', who, according to this book, practiced astronomy. I think the translation should be 'the wild land of the Stone tribe'.

Harmen.
 

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